Siakim, Dragi for Allen and Love

[HiJiNX]

Also, I want to say that I think this thread is undervaluing Jarrett Allen. He’s been awesome this year. All-star level. Of course he’s not a shot creator but his defence and finishing ability combined with his size/athleticism/mobility make him a tremendous asset to have. Probably the second most important player on the Cavs behind Garland (not saying Mobley, Lauri, Rubio arent/weren’t big keys for them).

All that said, I think we STILL need to be patient with Siakam. I know it’s hard, but I think he’s right about to turn the corner. He’s seeing the game way better these days. He has way fewer awful shots and turnovers than in the past and he’s defending really well, and doing dirty work in the paint. If his 3 ball returns then we have a serious weapon on our hands. But even without that he’s still a really good player.

[youngRAPZ]

I didn't say we have to trade Siakam right away... Just saying that we two really good players at the same position and we're going to have to deal with that before we can become a winning team.

I disagree with you I think we can become a good team with both on the team. Just like Cleavland became good with both Allen and Mobley. We haven’t even seen the OG Barnes Pascal Lineup for any length of time so I don’t know how you and so many others can just make up claims it won’t work.


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Cleveland became good right away because Mobley showed the quickness to play PF right away, so Cleveland didn't have any positional logjams with Mobley/Allen like everyone was expecting.

We're the ones with the logjam. Siakam and Barnes are not suddenly going to be able to play C.

Lol how do we have a log jam when we haven’t even had 5 games of OG/Barnes/Siakam one of them has always been out and we haven’t seen them play together to say they can’t I don’t understand what you don’t get.


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[youngRAPZ]

Also, I want to say that I think this thread is undervaluing Jarrett Allen. He’s been awesome this year. All-star level. Of course he’s not a shot creator but his defence and finishing ability combined with his size/athleticism/mobility make him a tremendous asset to have. Probably the second most important player on the Cavs behind Garland (not saying Mobley, Lauri, Rubio arent/weren’t big keys for them).

All that said, I think we STILL need to be patient with Siakam. I know it’s hard, but I think he’s right about to turn the corner. He’s seeing the game way better these days. He has way fewer awful shots and turnovers than in the past and he’s defending really well, and doing dirty work in the paint. If his 3 ball returns then we have a serious weapon on our hands. But even without that he’s still a really good player.

I don’t understand why they can’t see this lol


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[realball]

Unless you can get Jokic, embiid or maybe Gobert, the position is devalued that the Lakers are playing Lebron at center with DJ and Howard healthy. Do you guys even watch the league or just the raptors?

So you think we can survive with an OG-Siakam-Barnes front count long-term?

This is not what this team will look like when it's ready to contend, but yes you want 6'6-6'9 guys who can switch and play 5 out in the playoffs.
Right now It's more than adequate to run with this frontcourt with the occasional Birch or Precious subs. The biggest need is Backup PG so Fred doesn't lead the league in mins.

Playing 5-out requires shooters, Siakam is a career 32% shooter. He will never be a stretch C like you're imagining, he's a playmaking forward. Same with Barnes. I can see us contending with both of them on the team, but one of them or OG is getting traded or coming off the bench.

Also, you're forgetting guys like Giannis, Ayton, Bam, KAT, Allen - guys that Barnes and Siakam can't match up with full-time and don't have any offensive advantages over them. It's not just Jokic and Embiid, most teams still have 7-footer to anchor their defense and rebound.

[HiJiNX]

Also, I want to say that I think this thread is undervaluing Jarrett Allen. He’s been awesome this year. All-star level. Of course he’s not a shot creator but his defence and finishing ability combined with his size/athleticism/mobility make him a tremendous asset to have. Probably the second most important player on the Cavs behind Garland (not saying Mobley, Lauri, Rubio arent/weren’t big keys for them).

All that said, I think we STILL need to be patient with Siakam. I know it’s hard, but I think he’s right about to turn the corner. He’s seeing the game way better these days. He has way fewer awful shots and turnovers than in the past and he’s defending really well, and doing dirty work in the paint. If his 3 ball returns then we have a serious weapon on our hands. But even without that he’s still a really good player.

I don’t understand why they can’t see this lol


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It’s easy to follow the narratives I guess??

Or maybe certain folks just don’t see the game as a series of good and bad decisions and instead see it as shots going in or not, but the thing is whether shots go in consistently depends A LOT on how well players make decisions. Generally good decisions lead to easier shots and thus more makes. So then you look at a guy like Siakam and while he was an all-star two years ago that was mainly because his shot was falling and defences weren’t ready for him yet, but he was taking a lot of awful pull ups—they look great when they fall but when they don’t it looks like the bubble. Today’s Siakam has an entire different shot profile than two years ago and it’s a way better shot profile, but the numbers look the same (except the 3 ball is worse) so maybe people don’t see the improvements in seeing the floor and that if/once the skills catch up that he will be pretty lethal.

And that’s not even to talk about how well he’s been running the D lately. He’s really quarterbacking it out there and no more lazy rotations or missed box outs.

He’s just overall a way better player to me over the last three weeks than he was during his “glory days”.

I just hope that 3-ball does come back again.

[PhilBlackson]

1. This didn't require it's own thread
2. CLE would say no as Mobley/Allen has been the best big man duo in the league, that perfectly compliment each other defensively and will only get better with time that also fits their team's timeline with Garland/Mobley as Allen is several years younger than Pascal

[vulture]

So you think we can survive with an OG-Siakam-Barnes front count long-term?

This is not what this team will look like when it's ready to contend, but yes you want 6'6-6'9 guys who can switch and play 5 out in the playoffs.
Right now It's more than adequate to run with this frontcourt with the occasional Birch or Precious subs. The biggest need is Backup PG so Fred doesn't lead the league in mins.

Playing 5-out requires shooters, Siakam is a career 32% shooter. He will never be a stretch C like you're imagining, he's a playmaking forward. Same with Barnes. I can see us contending with both of them on the team, but one of them or OG is getting traded or coming off the bench.

Also, you're forgetting guys like Giannis, Ayton, Bam, KAT, Allen - guys that Barnes and Siakam can't match up with full-time and don't have any offensive advantages over them. It's not just Jokic and Embiid, most teams still have 7-footer to anchor their defense and rebound.

You don't need a center to anchor your defense or rebound anymore. 5 of the top 10 defenses don't have a true 5 and play small and it's even that much more prevalent in the playoffs. You need guys who can defend multiple positions and who can dribble pass and shoot.

This isn't the 90s anymore offenses are exploiting these big guys and if they are not generational guys like Embiid or Jokic tyou can't play them.

[WaltFrazier]

You can use the trade thread., but looks to be Vince Carter type of trade.

Allen isn't a star, Love has a bad contract, the 1st are going to be non-lottery with 3&D prospects. Meaning tanking for another 10 years and might as well trade Barnes?

I think we can get more from Siakam than that.

lol Cavs would be the ones who turn down this trade, not us.
Siakam plays the same position as their best player and makes a ton more than Allen, why in the world would they want him?

As someone said on page one this should be locked, but since it isn't:

I don't see the Cavs moving Allen at all. I think they are committed to the mobile twin towers approach with Allen and Mobley. Before the recent loss of Rubio I heard on Fan590 that one of those projection websites, 538 I think, had the Cavs as finishing first in the East. They are a rising team, and I believe their tallball approach is going to prove more successful than our smallball/no center thing.

[Johnny Bball]

So you think we can survive with an OG-Siakam-Barnes front count long-term?

This is not what this team will look like when it's ready to contend, but yes you want 6'6-6'9 guys who can switch and play 5 out in the playoffs.
Right now It's more than adequate to run with this frontcourt with the occasional Birch or Precious subs. The biggest need is Backup PG so Fred doesn't lead the league in mins.

Playing 5-out requires shooters, Siakam is a career 32% shooter. He will never be a stretch C like you're imagining, he's a playmaking forward. Same with Barnes. I can see us contending with both of them on the team, but one of them or OG is getting traded or coming off the bench.

Also, you're forgetting guys like Giannis, Ayton, Bam, KAT, Allen - guys that Barnes and Siakam can't match up with full-time and don't have any offensive advantages over them. It's not just Jokic and Embiid, most teams still have 7-footer to anchor their defense and rebound.

Which stretch or small ball C that can defend shoot over a good percentage, say over 40%? And Siakam is not the only one defending the centre. It's going to fall on all three. Siakam's three point shot needs work for sure, but it ain't horrid like AD.

And the entire idea drafting Barnes is that he can be a small ball C one day and defend. Nobody cares who starts, it who finishes. And at C one day, that should be Barnes.

And like vulture says above... you don't want that slow C, you want to be able to switch.

[Johnny Bball]

You can use the trade thread., but looks to be Vince Carter type of trade.

Allen isn't a star, Love has a bad contract, the 1st are going to be non-lottery with 3&D prospects. Meaning tanking for another 10 years and might as well trade Barnes?

I think we can get more from Siakam than that.

lol Cavs would be the ones who turn down this trade, not us.
Siakam plays the same position as their best player and makes a ton more than Allen, why in the world would they want him?

As someone said on page one this should be locked, but since it isn't:

I don't see the Cavs moving Allen at all. I think they are committed to the mobile twin towers approach with Allen and Mobley. Before the recent loss of Rubio I heard on Fan590 that one of those projection websites, 538 I think, had the Cavs as finishing first in the East. They are a rising team, and I believe their tallball approach is going to prove more successful than our smallball/no center thing.

Nobody had the Cavs finishing first. 538 doesn't keep their predictions so I cant showe it. But here's what the average was... here's ESPN. 26th. They are having a great year considering. And 538 does not currently have the Cavs in first of that's what you meant. 44-38. 12th overall.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-predictions/

They aren't playing tall ball. Both those guys are mobile not old school Cs. But it still wont work in the long run. How many more years than the last 7 do you need to see old school centres fail in the playoffs, since that's what you usually mean?

[WeThe2019Champs]

Need a thumbs down button.

[vaaron]

https://c.tenor.com/bYIou_1CztMAAAAC/drugs-bye.gif

[WaltFrazier]

lol Cavs would be the ones who turn down this trade, not us.
Siakam plays the same position as their best player and makes a ton more than Allen, why in the world would they want him?

As someone said on page one this should be locked, but since it isn't:

I don't see the Cavs moving Allen at all. I think they are committed to the mobile twin towers approach with Allen and Mobley. Before the recent loss of Rubio I heard on Fan590 that one of those projection websites, 538 I think, had the Cavs as finishing first in the East. They are a rising team, and I believe their tallball approach is going to prove more successful than our smallball/no center thing.

Nobody had the Cavs finishing first. 538 doesn't keep their predictions so I cant showe it. But here's what the average was... here's ESPN. 26th. They are having a great year considering. And 538 does not currently have the Cavs in first of that's what you meant. 44-38. 12th overall.

https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2022-nba-predictions/

They aren't playing tall ball. Both those guys are mobile not old school Cs. But it still wont work in the long run. How many more years than the last 7 do you need to see old school centres fail in the playoffs, since that's what you usually mean?

So the Cavs 2 guys are not old school centers, but they won't succeed in playoffs because of having old school centers. Got it.

And here I thought our 2 center combo of Serge and Marc succeeded in 2019. My mistake

[LoveMyRaps]

Yo mods, why is this thread still up?

[Darkseid]

Yo mods, why is this thread still up?

Careful, you might get banned for questioning the mods' terrible decision making.

[bluerap23]

No, we can't rest happy without a C, that's kind of the problem here. Pascal and Barnes are not good enough offensively to make up for their lack of size defensively, we can't keep playing them together and expect to win. We need a C badly... obviously not Allen, there is no way the Cavs ever trade him with that contract.

Unless you can get Jokic, embiid or maybe Gobert, the position is devalued that the Lakers are playing Lebron at center with DJ and Howard healthy. Do you guys even watch the league or just the raptors?

So you think we can survive with an OG-Siakam-Barnes front count long-term?

IMHO the future of this team is Fred, Barnes, OG, Siakam. Gary has been excellent this year but he is the least impactful of the 5 long-term. Barnes/OG/Siakam can definitely coexist. I am not opposed to trading one of them if it is for a player with higher upside, but Allen is not in the same league as Pascal.

[will]

KLove really turning back the clock in December of 2021.

With that being said, no thank you.

[realball]

This is not what this team will look like when it's ready to contend, but yes you want 6'6-6'9 guys who can switch and play 5 out in the playoffs.
Right now It's more than adequate to run with this frontcourt with the occasional Birch or Precious subs. The biggest need is Backup PG so Fred doesn't lead the league in mins.

Playing 5-out requires shooters, Siakam is a career 32% shooter. He will never be a stretch C like you're imagining, he's a playmaking forward. Same with Barnes. I can see us contending with both of them on the team, but one of them or OG is getting traded or coming off the bench.

Also, you're forgetting guys like Giannis, Ayton, Bam, KAT, Allen - guys that Barnes and Siakam can't match up with full-time and don't have any offensive advantages over them. It's not just Jokic and Embiid, most teams still have 7-footer to anchor their defense and rebound.

Which stretch or small ball C that can defend shoot over a good percentage, say over 40%? And Siakam is not the only one defending the centre. It's going to fall on all three. Siakam's three point shot needs work for sure, but it ain't horrid like AD.

And the entire idea drafting Barnes is that he can be a small ball C one day and defend. Nobody cares who starts, it who finishes. And at C one day, that should be Barnes.

And like vulture says above... you don't want that slow C, you want to be able to switch.

If neither of those three can guard Cs long-term, so why would it fall on all three? Why not just get one player who can guard Cs? It's been pretty clear from this season and the last that we need an anchor for our defense, our switching and rotating is elite, but it's no good without a C because we just end up packing the paint and giving up too many open 3s.

Siakam can't defend other Cs or shoot over 40%... so what exactly is the advantage that he provides against other bigs? Modern Cs like Bam and Ayton matchup very well with Siakam, there is no future where he plays C.

And who the hell said Barnes is eventually going to be a small ball C? How many Cs in the league do you know who are Barnes' size? Practically every team has a 7-footer starting. Barnes is nowhere near big enough to be playing C, just like Siakam. We need a C who can switch and guard big men and rebound, not just a C who can switch.

[Johnny Bball]

Playing 5-out requires shooters, Siakam is a career 32% shooter. He will never be a stretch C like you're imagining, he's a playmaking forward. Same with Barnes. I can see us contending with both of them on the team, but one of them or OG is getting traded or coming off the bench.

Also, you're forgetting guys like Giannis, Ayton, Bam, KAT, Allen - guys that Barnes and Siakam can't match up with full-time and don't have any offensive advantages over them. It's not just Jokic and Embiid, most teams still have 7-footer to anchor their defense and rebound.

Which stretch or small ball C that can defend shoot over a good percentage, say over 40%? And Siakam is not the only one defending the centre. It's going to fall on all three. Siakam's three point shot needs work for sure, but it ain't horrid like AD.

And the entire idea drafting Barnes is that he can be a small ball C one day and defend. Nobody cares who starts, it who finishes. And at C one day, that should be Barnes.

And like vulture says above... you don't want that slow C, you want to be able to switch.

If neither of those three can guard Cs long-term, so why would it fall on all three? Why not just get one player who can guard Cs? It's been pretty clear from this season and the last that we need an anchor for our defense, our switching and rotating is elite, but it's no good without a C because we just end up packing the paint and giving up too many open 3s.

Siakam can't defend other Cs or shoot over 40%... so what exactly is the advantage that he provides against other bigs? Modern Cs like Bam and Ayton matchup very well with Siakam, there is no future where he plays C.

And who the hell said Barnes is eventually going to be a small ball C? How many Cs in the league do you know who are Barnes' size? Practically every team has a 7-footer starting. Barnes is nowhere near big enough to be playing C, just like Siakam. We need a C who can switch and guard big men and rebound, not just a C who can switch.

Barne's comp is literally Draymond Green.

[DreamTeam09]

I'd much rather keep Pascal and a 7ft C using other pieces or future draft capital