I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore.

Moderators: Clav, Domejandro, ken6199, bisme37, Dirk, KingDavid, cupcakesnake, bwgood77, zimpy27, infinite11285

rtiff68
Veteran
Posts: 2,921
And1: 3,764
Joined: May 25, 2019

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#41 » by rtiff68 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:10 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:
rtiff68 wrote:
jazzfan1971 wrote:
I would say that passes per possession is probably a good proxy for sophistication. I don't know where to find this stat, but if you can find it I would be willing to see if that supports your position.



You want more “passes per possession,” and you’re propping up the freaking ‘90’s while killing today?

Dude….

i think its moreso that the passing is so telegraphed and the reads are so obvious because theres so much space. there is almost always an oobviously correct pass to be made. cutting to the basket is often times bad offense. the lack of spacing and bail out calls forced a level of creativity around the basket in terms of passing and finishing that we just arent going to see anymore.

illegal defense for example had defenders coming over to help from their man as opposed to being already in the correct position, making the decision to pass or shoot less obvious and require more creativity. zone defense is THE defense in the nba now, and im sorry, it doesnt take skill to beat a zone, it just takes discipline and good decision making. brook lopez used to have a rreally nuanced game, but now, i can tell you from a mile away what hes going to do. DFS on dallas for example, just stands around on offense and waits for luka to get zoned and sits in a spot and shoots. his game based training must be boring as hell. I still like this nba, but i totally get what unc is talking about.


You’re arguing that there’s less nuance to the game now than there was 20-30 years ago. That flat out isn’t true.

More players are more capable of more things than ever (shooting, passing, dribble penetration), which has lead to more spacing, which has lead to more options in offensive sets.

“Unc” is talking about the freaking iso-ball ‘90’s, where non-skilled hack-artists saw minutes for most teams, and the schemes were far more iso-based and/or one-note than they are today.

This can’t really be argued. If you prefer that, then that this is perfectly ok, because preference is subjective…

…but to argue the game overall today is less nuanced and more simplistic is ridiculous.
User avatar
BallerTalk
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,712
And1: 6,816
Joined: Jul 01, 2013

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#42 » by BallerTalk » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:13 pm

bisme37 wrote:This is enlightening. Some of the takes we get around here make much more sense now. I didn't realize people who don't watch the NBA still comment on it so much.


Unfortunately there is a plethora of posters here who gleefully talk out of their asses.
They happily chime in on players they don't watch and teams they don't follow.
You checkin' for the sound of the beast
I'm the hound, I'ma creep, I get down, I'ma eat
I'ma keep somethin' to lay a naysayer to sleep
-
rasta_marley
Starter
Posts: 2,357
And1: 510
Joined: Jul 10, 2009
Location: The city of broken knees...
     

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#43 » by rasta_marley » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:18 pm

Spoiler:
jazzfan1971 wrote:Back in the days of Stockton and Malone I used to live and breath Jazz games. I'd watch every second. IF I couldn't watch I'd listen. I loved the game back then.

Then they moved on. But, I still loved watching AK and a bunch of scrubs try to win games. It was a little frustrating watching them execute the offense to get good looks but just not have enough talent to make open shots. But the energy and effort they put into the game was infectious.

I still enjoyed the Boozer and Deron days. It was a lesser product than Stockton and Malone, but it was still rewarding to watch. They still ran plays. They tried pretty hard.

Then Sloan retired.

I haven't enjoyed basketball since. The game used to be beautiful. Not just the Jazz. But, the Kings under Adleman. The Spurs under Pop. Yes, even the Bulls were a joy to watch.

But, today the game stinks. I have a perfectly good team to watch. And I don't. I check box scores. I follow the offseason. But, to sit down and watch a game?? Nah. It's just ugly basketball IMHO. You don't see the teamwork anymore. You don't see the physicality. You don't see a team imposing their will. It's more like a glorified game of pop-a-shot. And the Jazz are freaking good at pop-a-shot. But, I still don't want to watch that.

I want to watch post play. I want to see backdoor cuts. Throw me a UCLA cut now and then. Something. But, it's either iso or PNR every trip down the floor for every team. It's boring. Even winning is boring. ****, even the playoff are boring. Can you believe that? I don't even watch my team in the playoffs anymore.

I guess the rest of the world is perfectly happy with this product, but I'm old enough to remember something better. And I'm sad. I believe the fact that 3>2 has destroyed the product. It took a while, but it finally did.

I think they need to move the 3pt line back. Way back. The 3pt shot should be a high risk, high reward desperation shot. Not the bread and butter of an offense. You should be looking to make a 3 in specific dire circumstances, not simply every time you can get one. So, push it back about 3ft, let the Currys and Dame's of the league still have value. But, no more corner 3s. Also, if you are fouled on a 3pt shot, you get 2 free throws, not 3. So, less flopping for free throws on the 3pt line. If you are going to shoot there you need to be actually trying to score of the math isn't in your favor.

I wonder if I'm the only old timer that has simply stopped watching games now. Or if we all have decided box scores and offseason moves are the only thing left of interest?

I'm only in my 30s but I agree can't get into the game like I used to. Used to be 3s were exciting and now their boring. Also I've always enjoyed more defensive oriented teams and the game hates them now lol.
Heej wrote:And tbh I'm not entirely convinced MJ wasn't just the 90s version of KD.

:lol:
Lockdown504090
RealGM
Posts: 11,842
And1: 12,710
Joined: Nov 24, 2015
         

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#44 » by Lockdown504090 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:18 pm

rtiff68 wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:
rtiff68 wrote:

You want more “passes per possession,” and you’re propping up the freaking ‘90’s while killing today?

Dude….

i think its moreso that the passing is so telegraphed and the reads are so obvious because theres so much space. there is almost always an oobviously correct pass to be made. cutting to the basket is often times bad offense. the lack of spacing and bail out calls forced a level of creativity around the basket in terms of passing and finishing that we just arent going to see anymore.

illegal defense for example had defenders coming over to help from their man as opposed to being already in the correct position, making the decision to pass or shoot less obvious and require more creativity. zone defense is THE defense in the nba now, and im sorry, it doesnt take skill to beat a zone, it just takes discipline and good decision making. brook lopez used to have a rreally nuanced game, but now, i can tell you from a mile away what hes going to do. DFS on dallas for example, just stands around on offense and waits for luka to get zoned and sits in a spot and shoots. his game based training must be boring as hell. I still like this nba, but i totally get what unc is talking about.


You’re arguing that there’s less nuance to the game now than there was 20-30 years ago. That flat out isn’t true.

More players are more capable of more things than ever (shooting, passing, dribble penetration), which has lead to more spacing, which has lead to more options in offensive sets.

“Unc” is talking about the freaking iso-ball ‘90’s, where non-skilled hack-artists saw minutes for most teams, and the schemes were far more iso-based and/or one-note than they are today.

This can’t really be argued. If you prefer that, then that this is perfectly ok, because preference is subjective…

…but to argue the game overall today is less nuanced and more simplistic is ridiculous.

its really just the shooting, which makes the passing and penetration easier, players are taught to allow the penetration, and rotate, further reducing the competitiveness on defense of the closeout in general. the technique 20 years ago was to do slow choppy steps to guard the guy closing out whichever way he go. now the fundamental is a priority list of leaving your feet when the offensive player does, closeout with a foot on or right beside the 3 point line while not going middle and dont let them cutback to the middle. The jazz have the best offense in the league and the only person whos game shows personality is donovan mitchell, its a valid criticism.

Theres a lot of guys in the top 20 for dimes that we wouldnt really describe as wizards with the passing.\

the list of guys from 01-04 leading in assists is probably a bit better than what we have now.
User avatar
realball
Head Coach
Posts: 6,320
And1: 3,364
Joined: Sep 13, 2006
 

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#45 » by realball » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:19 pm

Lalouie wrote:
KGtabake wrote:Cool but what are you guys doing here if that's the case? :confused:



you can't watch a game on realgm in case you haven't noticed LOL

you TALK about the game on realgm


Why would you want to talk about basketball if you're not watching it?
rtiff68
Veteran
Posts: 2,921
And1: 3,764
Joined: May 25, 2019

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#46 » by rtiff68 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:21 pm

Lockdown504090 wrote:
rtiff68 wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:i think its moreso that the passing is so telegraphed and the reads are so obvious because theres so much space. there is almost always an oobviously correct pass to be made. cutting to the basket is often times bad offense. the lack of spacing and bail out calls forced a level of creativity around the basket in terms of passing and finishing that we just arent going to see anymore.

illegal defense for example had defenders coming over to help from their man as opposed to being already in the correct position, making the decision to pass or shoot less obvious and require more creativity. zone defense is THE defense in the nba now, and im sorry, it doesnt take skill to beat a zone, it just takes discipline and good decision making. brook lopez used to have a rreally nuanced game, but now, i can tell you from a mile away what hes going to do. DFS on dallas for example, just stands around on offense and waits for luka to get zoned and sits in a spot and shoots. his game based training must be boring as hell. I still like this nba, but i totally get what unc is talking about.


You’re arguing that there’s less nuance to the game now than there was 20-30 years ago. That flat out isn’t true.

More players are more capable of more things than ever (shooting, passing, dribble penetration), which has lead to more spacing, which has lead to more options in offensive sets.

“Unc” is talking about the freaking iso-ball ‘90’s, where non-skilled hack-artists saw minutes for most teams, and the schemes were far more iso-based and/or one-note than they are today.

This can’t really be argued. If you prefer that, then that this is perfectly ok, because preference is subjective…

…but to argue the game overall today is less nuanced and more simplistic is ridiculous.

its really just the shooting, which makes the passing and penetration easier, players are taught to allow the penetration, and rotate, further reducing the competitiveness on defense of the closeout in general. the technique 20 years ago was to do slow choppy steps to guard the guy closing out whichever way he go. now the fundamental is a priority list of leaving your feet when the offensive player does, closeout with a foot on or right beside the 3 point line while not going middle and dont let them cutback to the middle. The jazz have the best offense in the league and the only person whos game shows personality is donovan mitchell, its a valid criticism.


So, to clarify, you are arguing that defenders used to close out more aggressively?
User avatar
Dave DaButcher
Sixth Man
Posts: 1,698
And1: 4,301
Joined: May 16, 2017
     

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#47 » by Dave DaButcher » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:27 pm

Read on Twitter
?s=21
User avatar
druggas
General Manager
Posts: 7,579
And1: 5,989
Joined: Dec 27, 2007

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#48 » by druggas » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:29 pm

og15 wrote:
druggas wrote:I've been watching since the 60's, but now that the NBA has turned into a 3 point contest, I don't bother to watch.
Wait, how old are you then?

67
User avatar
SichtingLives
RealGM
Posts: 40,893
And1: 25,460
Joined: Mar 25, 2009

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#49 » by SichtingLives » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:31 pm

Didn't miss a team game for nearly 30 years (Celtics). Since the covid shutdown I think NBA basketball is just about the most boring thing in the world. There's so many off-putting things about it that I'm just over even getting into at this point. Counting numbers in fantasy ball is my only current interest.

I'll be back whenever the nba commits to sucking less. Not impressed with short term rule changes and I'm done tolerating that the nba is supposed to blow until the postseason. Nah. You can't have athletes getting paid 40 mil a year and come with that bs. And dude (op) there's 10's of millions of us diehards out here in the same boat, trust that. People been fans a lot longer than me aren't watching right now. The NBA made a point to alienate a massive portion of their fanbase to cater to kids who watch youtube highlights. Maybe long term thats in their best interest but I don't really care. Give me something interesting or I'll change the channel. loyalty is dead and i don't see why us "consumers" should view it differently than the sellers and the product.
10 miles through the snow uphill both ways
dribble1614
Pro Prospect
Posts: 849
And1: 769
Joined: Mar 09, 2020

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#50 » by dribble1614 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:32 pm

it's absolutely true. i only watch the playoffs basically but regular season i don't care for anymore. box score watch and keep track of stats, standings, etc. post-game highlights on youtube here and there, but the game is simply much more boring than it used to be.
User avatar
Little Italia
Assistant Coach
Posts: 4,273
And1: 1,134
Joined: Jun 30, 2008
Location: Your house, rent free.
     

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#51 » by Little Italia » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:36 pm

I only watch to see the Knicks win a championship. I'm still waiting...
Image

"New York Knicks will never win a championship with James Dolan at the helm. Off with his head!!"




WELCOME TO MEDIOCRE HELL
User avatar
azcatz11
RealGM
Posts: 31,036
And1: 34,800
Joined: Apr 13, 2017
Location: Phoenix
     

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#52 » by azcatz11 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:40 pm

druggas wrote:
og15 wrote:
druggas wrote:I've been watching since the 60's, but now that the NBA has turned into a 3 point contest, I don't bother to watch.
Wait, how old are you then?

67


You’re still a spring chicken!

I’m aware of a poster on here in his early 80s fyi
Praying for Burrow
draftnightsuit
Analyst
Posts: 3,515
And1: 6,590
Joined: Oct 08, 2016

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#53 » by draftnightsuit » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:43 pm

The ‘90s were the absolute most watered down the league has ever been. Low IQ players, out-of-shape flabby beer drinkers, no strategy whatsoever, etc…. I can keep going.

The problem is that fans (and players) have an opportunity inflated sense of themselves an their generation. It’s not just basketball, but every other sport. Even Gary Sheffield was complaining about todays MLB, becaisr everybody know that roided up ‘90s baseball was the epitome of the sport.

If you love that and hate todays NBA, then you just don’t like basketball. Maybe this sport isn’t for you. I heard that soccer was taking applications for new fans.
og15
Forum Mod - Clippers
Forum Mod - Clippers
Posts: 50,924
And1: 33,734
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Location: NBA Fan
 

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#54 » by og15 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:45 pm

druggas wrote:
og15 wrote:
druggas wrote:I've been watching since the 60's, but now that the NBA has turned into a 3 point contest, I don't bother to watch.
Wait, how old are you then?

67

Nice, a little younger than my parents, don't think they even know what forums are though, lol
Lockdown504090
RealGM
Posts: 11,842
And1: 12,710
Joined: Nov 24, 2015
         

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#55 » by Lockdown504090 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 10:53 pm

rtiff68 wrote:
Lockdown504090 wrote:
rtiff68 wrote:
You’re arguing that there’s less nuance to the game now than there was 20-30 years ago. That flat out isn’t true.

More players are more capable of more things than ever (shooting, passing, dribble penetration), which has lead to more spacing, which has lead to more options in offensive sets.

“Unc” is talking about the freaking iso-ball ‘90’s, where non-skilled hack-artists saw minutes for most teams, and the schemes were far more iso-based and/or one-note than they are today.

This can’t really be argued. If you prefer that, then that this is perfectly ok, because preference is subjective…

…but to argue the game overall today is less nuanced and more simplistic is ridiculous.

its really just the shooting, which makes the passing and penetration easier, players are taught to allow the penetration, and rotate, further reducing the competitiveness on defense of the closeout in general. the technique 20 years ago was to do slow choppy steps to guard the guy closing out whichever way he go. now the fundamental is a priority list of leaving your feet when the offensive player does, closeout with a foot on or right beside the 3 point line while not going middle and dont let them cutback to the middle. The jazz have the best offense in the league and the only person whos game shows personality is donovan mitchell, its a valid criticism.


So, to clarify, you are arguing that defenders used to close out more aggressively?

no not at all. they surely dont. im not some nostalgist. Todays players are just better than the old guys thats why the game is like this i agree with you.

if i even look back to 2012-15 or 16 before the rockets ruined basketball, there were a ton of different styles going on, it was cool (again players not as good as now) there arent very many quirky skills like there were like antawan jamison's weird flip shot, or marion's funky jumper, brad miller's bounce pass, or andre millers dad game. the nba right now is "play this way, or lose" especially in the regular season. posting up is just bad offense now. spotting up from 18 feet is a death sentence. shooting the 3 on the break is a must, you probably shouldnt do anything else unless its a dunk.

I think those rule changes helped a little bit, since not being able to get fouled on the 3 so much is making the equation of 3 pointers off the dribble less deadly and allowing the defnders to defend without giving up shooting fouls so much is going to make the playoffs more balanced though. but seriously though, I attend online coaching clinics pretty often and ive heard coach after coach say that their goal is to get 50 3 pointers regardless of player skill. ive heard carslie and nurse say that posting up or mid range shots is just a reward for playing good defense and taking smart shots. ive heard d3 coaches say, they want 28% shooters to get up 3 a game just so they can get used to it and hopefully improve. the team i coach now, we have a great post player, but mathematically it doesnt make any sense for him to use any move down there unless it results in a layup or a dunk.
tundraknight
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,398
And1: 4,066
Joined: Sep 29, 2008

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#56 » by tundraknight » Sat Jan 1, 2022 11:02 pm

This reminds me of the thread here a couple years ago with Pau Gasol talking about how the “Game Lost It’s Beauty”
dribble1614
Pro Prospect
Posts: 849
And1: 769
Joined: Mar 09, 2020

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#57 » by dribble1614 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 11:10 pm

today's era sucks compared to the 90's for sure. bunch of soft, overrated players compared to the past.
djsunyc
RealGM
Posts: 99,653
And1: 73,454
Joined: Dec 28, 2003

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#58 » by djsunyc » Sat Jan 1, 2022 11:13 pm

dribble1614 wrote:today's era sucks compared to the 90's for sure. bunch of soft, overrated players compared to the past.


so those people that were adults in the 90's...they created and raised these players today. just saying.
vancity604
Junior
Posts: 252
And1: 412
Joined: Nov 18, 2012

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#59 » by vancity604 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 11:14 pm

the biggest mistake was the nba allowing load management. When a team decides to rest healthy players they are basically sending a message to the fans that these games are irrelevant...and we are just waiting for the playoffs. Why should a fan get emotionally invested in the regular season when the teams arent? that combined with no rivalries, no villains, no emotion, very little defensive intensity....the regular season is a chore to watch. There is also no young mega star like a young lebron or young mj that is getting casual fans attention. Every year it feels the regular season is becoming less and less relevant.
og15
Forum Mod - Clippers
Forum Mod - Clippers
Posts: 50,924
And1: 33,734
Joined: Jun 23, 2004
Location: NBA Fan
 

Re: I used to watch the NBA. I don't anymore. 

Post#60 » by og15 » Sat Jan 1, 2022 11:20 pm

Nate505 wrote:It's definitely a much worse game now than it was 20-40 years ago, but I still watch the Jazz.

It has been better this season with the refs finally not calling foul after foul after foul, but it seems like they're slipping a bit in that regard too.

Worse is obviously subjective. Many people do generally mean different style than what they grew up with or are used too when they say worse, which in those cases just means worse for me, vs necessarily objectively worse.

Fouls for example have been decreasing for some time, so I can't truly objectively complain about the frequency of foul calls and say that there are too many FTA compared to 20 years ago when it's consistently been going down. Unless I was saying that 20 years ago too...

20 years ago in the late 90's / early 00's, I grew up watching that, a lot of fav players from there, but I can't objectively say it was "better". I thought the product improved after some of the changes that moved away from iso ball. There's a reason Sacramento with their passing offense with Adelman and Phoenix with their pace and space with D'Antoni got so much excitement, and it wasn't because there was too much passing and call movement going on around the league.

So to make a blanket, "it was better", would be odd for me. But if you were younger then, there's the confounding factor of more things to do in life now / other responsibilities and also possibly being more objective in analyzing now. So interest could be dwindling due to many reasons, but we can also rationalize that it's because the game got worse.

I don't watch the early 2000's Nets vs Pistons or Celtics vs Nets or Sixers vs Raptors and say, "wow, this is some top level strategic and team basketball". A lot of it was kinda extremely deliberate, few player focused offense with some guys on the court who weren't even allowed to shoot almost.

I like a lot of what we saw in the later 00's and the 10's, the late 10's and 20's so far has been everyone trying to find their way in pace and space higher 3PT volume league.

I do disagree with the blanket, everyone plays the same, there are certainly different styles, but teams are looking for similar shots, so end results become fairly similar. Phoenix and GS play very different basketball, and Denver doesn't play like either of them.

I can't see any statistical reasoning that will get teams to post up guys who aren't great in the post, which few are or have ever been or have role players taking shots in the mid-range or centering an offense around mid-range though, it just won't make sense for teams. It's only going to be something that teams with outlier guys can pull off.

Return to The General Board