Sabonis and Turner offers

[MasterIchiro]

You’re right. As an Indy fan, we wouldn’t have any idea of what a small market team has to do to build.

But yeah. Maybe you could get Mitchell for the MLE in the offseason. That would be a relatively cheap move. But y’all have been trying to fix that center spot for awhile now on the cheap, and it still hasn’t worked. And Mitchell is still a terribly flawed player. But that could possibly happen. If you’re willing to leave the center spot as is for another half a season and potentially a playoffs appearance.

I guarantee Hornets get sent to slaughter this playoffs with Plumlee. And yes, I'm resigned to the strong possibility the Hornets target a role player at the 5 rather than paying a premium. Given our top tier offense, we'd be concentrating on the value of the things Robinson does well, like rebounding and paint protection. With LaMelo being such an exquisite playmaker, we can get away with an offense playing 4-on-5. We have solid secondary playmakers in Rozier, Hayward and recently Miles Bridges. I'm willing to bump up compensation for a glorified role player like Bamba for the added spacing. But I don't think the 5 will be a top salary slot for us. And I don't think a small market team should allot a top salary slot for a 5. The Jazz have Gobert but they also have Donovan Mitchell, but even their ceiling is limited. Nuggets have Murray with Jokic and their ceiling is limited. I think our roster is well balanced for a small market team, and I've given up on top tier targets like Sabonis and Turner. I'm looking hard at Mitchell Robinson, Mo Bamba (he's my first choice), Nurkic, Val and Harrell. Maybe Noel.

I strongly agree with this point -- spending on a C is the last thing a small market team should do. It is a luxury that doesn't make sense for a tax-averse team unless they are contending at that time. The game has changed and continue to evolve away from the basket and towards the 3pt line -- and that's where the salary space should be focused as well.

(aside: really enjoyed your posts in this thread detailing your thoughts on the Hornets C position -- well thought out and explained)

I appreciate it. I feel like sometimes topics create a tug-of-war that dismisses nuances that affect different teams in different situations subject to different market conditions. We shouldn't be bogged down in the argument of whether you need a top center to win or not. You need good players at every position. We can all agree on that. But the role of the 5 has been worn down to the studs in today's game. If there's one position where you can get away with less skill, it's the 5. And as a small market team you have to identify these efficiencies and execute your plan accordingly. Athleticism becomes a standard crutch at the 5. It matters at the 5 big time in today's game (Jokic is the exception). Someone like Jarrett Allen satisfies everyone involved in the conversation. He makes 20 million. He can be your third highest salary if his supporting cast is freaking perfect for him (they are). He doesn't shoot threes but he also doesn't bark for the ball in the paint like Patrick Ewing and the Cavs don't rely on paint offense. Jarrett Allen is what happens when you take a raw athlete who's a hard worker and everything works out for him. I guess this is my way of saying Allen is the high end of what I'd allot to the 5 as a small market team. I have Sabonis and Turner blowing past that. We had to trade a future pick for Kai Jones and hope in three years he becomes a glorified role player. Turner hates that label (and the money that comes with it). I think Kai Jones would embrace it. In the meantime we get by with Mason Plumlee. Yes, we will lose. Yes, in the first round. But he doesn't stunt the development of the roster. Internal improvements are the currency of a well managed small market team.

[Topofthekey]

But the role of the 5 has been worn down to the studs in today's game. If there's one position where you can get away with less skill, it's the 5. And as a small market team you have to identify these efficiencies and execute your plan accordingly. Athleticism becomes a standard crutch at the 5. It matters at the 5 big time in today's game (Jokic is the exception)

Is that true though? Nuggets is getting away with Will Barton at the 3

I think the more accurate assessment is if you have one or two elite players on your team, you can get away with average-ish players at other positions

It so happens that there are many elite guards and wings in the game right now, and it allows their team to get away with using meh players at other positions, including the 5

Without looking it up, who's the starting 3 for the 76ers?

Yea

If you have an elite 5, you can absolutely get away with using meh players at "sexy" positions like the 3 or 2

[MasterIchiro]

But the role of the 5 has been worn down to the studs in today's game. If there's one position where you can get away with less skill, it's the 5. And as a small market team you have to identify these efficiencies and execute your plan accordingly. Athleticism becomes a standard crutch at the 5. It matters at the 5 big time in today's game (Jokic is the exception)

Is that true though? Nuggets is getting away with Will Barton at the 3

I think the more accurate assessment is if you have one or two elite players on your team, you can get away with average-ish players at other positions

It so happens that there are many elite guards and wings in the game right now, and it allows their team to get away with using meh players at other positions, including the 5

Without looking it up, who's the starting 3 for the 76ers?

Yea

If you have an elite 5, you can absolutely get away with using meh players at "sexy" positions like the 3 or 2

If I had a starting lineup of four players who can all create for themselves and their teammates, I don't need high skill level at the 5. I need traditional 5 skills like rebounding and rim protection. LaMelo Ball doesn't need Rudy Gobert at 40 million. I think LaMelo can carry a 5 who can run the break and catch lobs on offense and potentially guard 1-5 on defense. That's why Kupchak stalked Kai Jones. LaMelo is an elite creator for his teammates. I would say the player running the offense should be the highest skilled player on a team. Patrick Ewing was great finishing offense, but then point guards started bombing threes. If I'm building a team, I want Steph Curry over Gobert or Jokic. The skill level should tilt towards the perimeter. If you have a 5 who can do other things like stretch the floor or make plays for teammates, it's a luxury for a small market team. If you don't have that highly skilled point guard it won't matter.

Honestly think Pacers should go after Ben Simmons. His playmaking skills are being undervalued here.

[Guzman_9]

Dang there was really two pages of yall just arguing books for no reason haha

In reality yes Charlotte would trade for Sabonis and Turner regardless of what fans say on here.

I don’t see Indy trading them to Charlotte unless Ball or Bridges are involved, which I don’t see.

If Sabonis is the target it would HAVE to include Bridges.

If its Turner I see Turner, Lamb and maybe a protected first for Bridges and Rozier going somewhere else.

If Turner for something around PJ then Pacers would probably ask for PJ, Bounight and a Top 8 protected first.

[MasterIchiro]

Dang there was really two pages of yall just arguing books for no reason haha

In reality yes Charlotte would trade for Sabonis and Turner regardless of what fans say on here.

I don’t see Indy trading them to Charlotte unless Ball or Bridges are involved, which I don’t see.

If Sabonis is the target it would HAVE to include Bridges.

If its Turner I see Turner, Lamb and maybe a protected first for Bridges and Rozier going somewhere else.

If Turner for something around PJ then Pacers would probably ask for PJ, Bounight and a Top 8 protected first.

First you said reality is Pacers wouldn't do it unless LaMelo Ball or Miles Bridges is coming back. Then you say the Pacers would probably ask for Bouknight. The reality is the Hornets don't want Sabonis or Turner at these asking prices. And due to already being a top offense, likely altogether don't want Sabonis. Throughout the conversation, many examples of cheaper rim protectors were provided. Hornets just invested a first round pick in Kai Jones so the plan seems to be to roll with a placeholder while he develops. Reality is I will bet you good money James Bouknight remains a Charlotte Hornet. Kupchak revealed a bidding war for Bouk on draft night and Kupchak obviously turned down everyone. Nothing has changed in the scouting reports except for notes about areas of improvement.

[Topofthekey]

But the role of the 5 has been worn down to the studs in today's game. If there's one position where you can get away with less skill, it's the 5. And as a small market team you have to identify these efficiencies and execute your plan accordingly. Athleticism becomes a standard crutch at the 5. It matters at the 5 big time in today's game (Jokic is the exception)

Is that true though? Nuggets is getting away with Will Barton at the 3

I think the more accurate assessment is if you have one or two elite players on your team, you can get away with average-ish players at other positions

It so happens that there are many elite guards and wings in the game right now, and it allows their team to get away with using meh players at other positions, including the 5

Without looking it up, who's the starting 3 for the 76ers?

Yea

If you have an elite 5, you can absolutely get away with using meh players at "sexy" positions like the 3 or 2

If I had a starting lineup of four players who can all create for themselves and their teammates, I don't need high skill level at the 5. I need traditional 5 skills like rebounding and rim protection. LaMelo Ball doesn't need Rudy Gobert at 40 million. I think LaMelo can carry a 5 who can run the break and catch lobs on offense and potentially guard 1-5 on defense. That's why Kupchak stalked Kai Jones. LaMelo is an elite creator for his teammates. I would say the player running the offense should be the highest skilled player on a team. Patrick Ewing was great finishing offense, but then point guards started bombing threes. If I'm building a team, I want Steph Curry over Gobert or Jokic. The skill level should tilt towards the perimeter. If you have a 5 who can do other things like stretch the floor or make plays for teammates, it's a luxury for a small market team. If you don't have that highly skilled point guard it won't matter.

Honestly think Pacers should go after Ben Simmons. His playmaking skills are being undervalued here.

Very interesting, I know you feel the 1 is the most important position, because that's the position that the best player on your team plays, but none of this changes the fact that teams like Nuggets, 76ers, and Jazz are getting away with average-ish players at the wing positions, because they have elite players elsewhere (primarily the 5)

Again, it's not about any position being more indispensable than others. It's about having one or two elite players on your team, and then building your team around them

Heck, Giannis is probably the most dominant player in the league right now, and he doesn't play the 3 or 1

[Guzman_9]

Dang there was really two pages of yall just arguing books for no reason haha

In reality yes Charlotte would trade for Sabonis and Turner regardless of what fans say on here.

I don’t see Indy trading them to Charlotte unless Ball or Bridges are involved, which I don’t see.

If Sabonis is the target it would HAVE to include Bridges.

If its Turner I see Turner, Lamb and maybe a protected first for Bridges and Rozier going somewhere else.

If Turner for something around PJ then Pacers would probably ask for PJ, Bounight and a Top 8 protected first.

First you said reality is Pacers wouldn't do it unless LaMelo Ball or Miles Bridges is coming back. Then you say the Pacers would probably ask for Bouknight. The reality is the Hornets don't want Sabonis or Turner at these asking prices. And due to already being a top offense, likely altogether don't want Sabonis. Throughout the conversation, many examples of cheaper rim protectors were provided. Hornets just invested a first round pick in Kai Jones so the plan seems to be to roll with a placeholder while he develops. Reality is I will bet you good money James Bouknight remains a Charlotte Hornet. Kupchak revealed a bidding war for Bouk on draft night and Kupchak obviously turned down everyone. Nothing has changed in the scouting reports except for notes about areas of improvement.

I didn’t include Ball in any of the deals because I could bet that he is 100% untouchable unless it was for Durant caliber player.
Bridges on the other hand might be untouchable in the eyes of fans but I doubt in reality he is.

End of the day Sabonis is a young big man All-star. I genuinely feel people forget that when discussing Sabonis. People try to give a bunch of pennies for him or think Pacers need to add value with him. They try to throw his defensive skills to devalue him when hes a two time allstar.

I stopped utilizing Realgm as much because the logic of many fans is irritating. They never want to give up their Top 3 players but want all the top players from other teams.

[MasterIchiro]

Dang there was really two pages of yall just arguing books for no reason haha

In reality yes Charlotte would trade for Sabonis and Turner regardless of what fans say on here.

I don’t see Indy trading them to Charlotte unless Ball or Bridges are involved, which I don’t see.

If Sabonis is the target it would HAVE to include Bridges.

If its Turner I see Turner, Lamb and maybe a protected first for Bridges and Rozier going somewhere else.

If Turner for something around PJ then Pacers would probably ask for PJ, Bounight and a Top 8 protected first.

First you said reality is Pacers wouldn't do it unless LaMelo Ball or Miles Bridges is coming back. Then you say the Pacers would probably ask for Bouknight. The reality is the Hornets don't want Sabonis or Turner at these asking prices. And due to already being a top offense, likely altogether don't want Sabonis. Throughout the conversation, many examples of cheaper rim protectors were provided. Hornets just invested a first round pick in Kai Jones so the plan seems to be to roll with a placeholder while he develops. Reality is I will bet you good money James Bouknight remains a Charlotte Hornet. Kupchak revealed a bidding war for Bouk on draft night and Kupchak obviously turned down everyone. Nothing has changed in the scouting reports except for notes about areas of improvement.

I didn’t include Ball in any of the deals because I could bet that he is 100% untouchable unless it was for Durant caliber player.
Bridges on the other hand might be untouchable in the eyes of fans but I doubt in reality he is.

End of the day Sabonis is a young big man All-star. I genuinely feel people forget that when discussing Sabonis. People try to give a bunch of pennies for him or think Pacers need to add value with him. They try to throw his defensive skills to devalue him when hes a two time allstar.

I stopped utilizing Realgm as much because the logic of many fans is irritating. They never want to give up their Top 3 players but want all the top players from other teams.

Sabonis has All-Star value but the Hornets would prefer Turner for his defense if his looming pay raise weren't a factor. Hornets are third to last in defensive efficiency. So once you make a big trade for Sabonis you're depleted in capital for contingent moves designed to address your weakness on defense.

As for Miles Bridges...He's the longest tenured Hornet and he's best friends with LaMelo and together they have ideal chemistry on and off the court. He's definitely off the table for all deals, not just scenarios involving Sabonis or Turner, so this doesn't take anything away from your merchandise. I think Sabonis is worth top prospects but that doesn't mean every team with top prospects will trade them for Sabonis. I know this team won't. I know this team was rumored to be after Turner and ever since there was talk of the Pacers rebuilding, the herd wants to jump to relocate one of these centers to Charlotte, addressing need like it's a blanket need. The type of center matters, the cost and the skills all factor into need. Hornets really need rim protection and rebounding, and need it cheap, as in, we keep the roster in tact and ride cost-controlled assets as they improve because we can't spend like the Brooklyn Nets. I've stated we have rising costs in players we prize and want to retain - Miles and Cody Martin this year, Oubre, McDaniels and PJ Washington next year. After emptying the cupboard of players like Bouknight and Kai Jones, the losses don't end there. Many of these other players become cap casualties of bringing on Turner or Sabonis. It's not that we don't value Turner or Sabonis, it's just that we're diversifying our resources and going cheaper at the 5. I'd be thrilled with Bamba, Mitchell Robinson, Nurkic, Valanciunas, Hartenstein, Harrell. Are those guys better than Sabonis and Turner? No, they're cheaper.