Tank World Order (6.0)

[DelAbbot]

I'm not the one advocating for tanking. I'm not the one promoting an extreme approach.

People need to realize that even 4 years of making the playoffs and winning is (historically) still not enough to retain Barnes.

You are forgetting one big criterion in all these:

"We are here to win a championship"

Watch on YouTube

That means we need a core that offers a high enough ceiling to reach that level of competing for championships. Not just a core of "good enough to make playoffs".

Is the current core (Barnes+OG+FVV+PS+PA) enough for competing for championship? I think it's not likely, and another year of asset accumulation through the draft (hence the hope to tank for higher draft slot) will boost that chance a lot.

Right now my entire discussion is based on: how can you tank and retain Barnes?

So far the answers have been: "Organic Growth".

That's it. That's all. Hopium.

Like I said before, we are not tanking forever. Just this season (Barnes wasn't on our Tampa tanking season). If Barnes does leave, it won't be because we tanked in his rookie season.

[PhilBlackson]

Not sure what some anti-tankers don't get, no one is saying to all out tank like Hinkie for years on end, so please for the love of God stop parrotting that over n over n over.

Nor do I see anyone claiming we can out tank the garbage at the bottom of the league. Merely that they would like to see us REMAIN IN THE LOTTERY TO IMPROVE OUR ODDS of drafting another young star - not the difficult to understand if you have an above pre-school level of reading comprehension, then you can stop derailing the thread with the same drivel.

Pretty much everyone acknowledges that IF we do remain in the lottery it would be towards the back end of it and that there's good possibility we make the Playoffs but they don't want to in order again to improve our odds and that a single year of Scottie not making it isn't going to completely derail things here lol that's so ridiculously overly dramatic.

I'm not pro "tank" in the way some irrational posters like to make it to be but again to just remain in the lottery to improve our odds of another young star. If it doesn't happen, oh well, nothing can do about it and I'm happy that WE DID in order to get a young superstar like Scottie. It's been said so many times, but we all just want to get back to being a championship level team, just different perspectives/ideas of how to get there.

[will]

Sounds like the consensus in this thread is tWo not beyond the 2022 draft?

[will]

Not sure what some anti-tankers don't get, no one is saying to all out tank like Hinkie for years on end, so please for the love of God stop parrotting that over n over n over.

Nor do I see anyone claiming we can out tank the garbage at the bottom of the league. Merely that they would like to see us REMAIN IN THE LOTTERY TO IMPROVE OUR ODDS of drafting another young star - not the difficult to understand if you have an above pre-school level of reading comprehension, then you can stop derailing the thread with the same drivel.

Pretty much everyone acknowledges that IF we do remain in the lottery it towards the back end of it and that there's good possibility we make the Playoffs but they don't want to in order again to improve our odds and that a single year of Scottie not making it isn't going to completely derail things here lol that's so ridiculously overly dramatic.

I'm not pro "tank" in the way some irrational posters like to make it to be but again to just remain in the lottery to improve our odds of another young star. If it doesn't happen, oh well, nothing can do about it and I'm happy that WE DID in order to get a young superstar like Scottie. It's been said so many times, but we all just want to get back to being a championship level team, just different perspectives/ideas of how to get there.

You should just repost or copy your previous posts outlining this.

I admire how you are able to repeat yourself each time

[canada_dry]

I don't like a core of FVV/Pascal and OG and question Scotties fit with them. But I also don't like this draft class as much as everyone else around here at all. TBH I've only been watching games to see Scotties development as player.

I've said from the beginning that regardless if you're TwO or Team Mediocre we all have zero say on which direction we take as a team. So why many come here to debate a subject that is clearly subjective is beyond me.

Again we have no say in the direction Masai/Bobby take. Just enjoy the ride.

Ive said multiple times I'm Team Trust Masai. But also criticize Trash World Order for their moving of goal posts, advocating for being trash before seasons begin, and quite frankly the fact that the team just isnt bad enough to tank so They're just daydreaming.

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[canada_dry]

I've been curious about something...

The main reasons for tanking last year were that there was all-star talent to be found in a deep/top-heavy draft and it was a pandemic year where we were playing in Tampa away from home fans. This TWO line of thinking kicked off as early as our 2-8 start (after we lost 3 games in part due to bad officiating and 2 others by 1 point after Siakam missed back-to-back shots at the buzzer), but it really took off in the midst of our 9-game losing streak when the season was derailed by COVID. Most of TWO kept repeating that it was a one-off thing and we would go back to competing the following season.

The same things are being said again this season, but this time TWO was in full force before the season even started. Even after drafting Scottie (who has top 5 or even MVP potential) and Banton (who has the tools to be at the very least a good bench piece after a year or two of development) plus also trading away two of our oldest players for two additional young players. The original arguments (we need to draft a potential superstar, we need more young talent, etc.) went out the window and now the goal of TWO is to maximize our chances at finding more top-end talent to pair with Scottie by tanking another year because we aren't good enough to win the Championship right this moment.

The issue I have with TWO is the finish line seemingly keeps being pushed back. Where/when does it end? If the main goal is to hit a homerun in the draft and walk away with a superstar talent, didn't we already succeed with Scottie? How many generational talents do we need on our team before we can start competing and pushing for the playoffs to get some experience? What happens if the player we draft in 6 months ends up projecting to max out as a solid starter and/or we start off with a similar underwhelming record next season?

Some people are insisting that they're not calling for some big tank job, but we're already on year 2 of TWO and there are numerous discussions around trading at least one of Siakam/FVV for more picks. If we trade either of them (FVV in particular), suddenly we're looking at 3-4 years of tanking -- at which point, the other vet probably requests a trade or leaves during FA because they're tired of winning ~30 games and the inexperience of their teammates.

Whenever we have been healthy (even mostly healthy), we have been a good team in spite of the awful bench because our top 5 players have been so good. Scottie is way better than expected, OG and GTJ have both improved a lot over the past 12 months, FVV is still improving and Siakam has regained some all-star form. I just don't understand why we can't just play out the season and see what happens. Our best players are way too good to finish in the bottom third of the league again. Is the 10th-12th pick really that valuable that we should waste a season of potential playoff experience? Why not just live with the results whether it be good or bad?

Thats always been my issue. Moving of goal posts, being dishonest, and the fact that as a team we are just not bad enough to tank. Wont bother coming in here and debating consistently, since i trust masai and if he decides to pivot im with it. Not anti tank necessarily or 100% pro the other side.

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[will]

I've been curious about something...

The main reasons for tanking last year were that there was all-star talent to be found in a deep/top-heavy draft and it was a pandemic year where we were playing in Tampa away from home fans. This TWO line of thinking kicked off as early as our 2-8 start (after we lost 3 games in part due to bad officiating and 2 others by 1 point after Siakam missed back-to-back shots at the buzzer), but it really took off in the midst of our 9-game losing streak when the season was derailed by COVID. Most of TWO kept repeating that it was a one-off thing and we would go back to competing the following season.

The same things are being said again this season, but this time TWO was in full force before the season even started. Even after drafting Scottie (who has top 5 or even MVP potential) and Banton (who has the tools to be at the very least a good bench piece after a year or two of development) plus also trading away two of our oldest players for two additional young players. The original arguments (we need to draft a potential superstar, we need more young talent, etc.) went out the window and now the goal of TWO is to maximize our chances at finding more top-end talent to pair with Scottie by tanking another year because we aren't good enough to win the Championship right this moment.

The issue I have with TWO is the finish line seemingly keeps being pushed back. Where/when does it end? If the main goal is to hit a homerun in the draft and walk away with a superstar talent, didn't we already succeed with Scottie? How many generational talents do we need on our team before we can start competing and pushing for the playoffs to get some experience? What happens if the player we draft in 6 months ends up projecting to max out as a solid starter and/or we start off with a similar underwhelming record next season?

Some people are insisting that they're not calling for some big tank job, but we're already on year 2 of TWO and there are numerous discussions around trading at least one of Siakam/FVV for more picks. If we trade either of them (FVV in particular), suddenly we're looking at 3-4 years of tanking -- at which point, the other vet probably requests a trade or leaves during FA because they're tired of winning ~30 games and the inexperience of their teammates.

Whenever we have been healthy (even mostly healthy), we have been a good team in spite of the awful bench because our top 5 players have been so good. Scottie is way better than expected, OG and GTJ have both improved a lot over the past 12 months, FVV is still improving and Siakam has regained some all-star form. I just don't understand why we can't just play out the season and see what happens. Our best players are way too good to finish in the bottom third of the league again. Is the 10th-12th pick really that valuable that we should waste a season of potential playoff experience? Why not just live with the results whether it be good or bad?

Thats always been my issue. Moving of goal posts, being dishonest, and the fact that as a team we are just not bad enough to tank. Wont bother coming in here and debating consistently, since i trust masai and if he decides to pivot im with it. Not anti tank necessarily or 100% pro the other side.

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Yet here we are

[canada_dry]

We're a .500 team while having guys in and out of the lineup and injured all year and we've gone through our COVID bout. TWO is a fantasy. We're late lotto at best (12-14). Is that better than a 1st round series against like the Bulls or Bucks and the 15th or 16th pick?

Historically the difference between 12 ans 15 is minimal. These guys are on crack.

Even 720 has come to the realization that this team is picking in that 13-16 range. Too good to fully tank. Just like ive always said.

Theres no problem in looking at prospects in that range going forward. But its also kinda humorous and ironic coming from the guys making/advocating for this thread before the season even started lol. This has been a fail for Trash World Order. Any way u slice it.

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[720]

Watch on YouTube

Keegan Murray continuing his destruction of the NCAA.

Honestly the better Keegan plays and/or the better we play, he's going to cross the threshhold of where we are in the standings or we're going to be too good to get inside the top 10...so it won't work out. He'd be more valuable on a team built to win rather than focused on developing (or tanking or "stealth"-tanking), which I think we will want to be next year (given we have FVV/Siakam/OG). I wonder about the value of drafting another forward though, anyways. We seem to be pretty full there already, even if the organization likes 69 guys. (pause).

Yeah idk either, our front office has always picked bpa but will they draft another forward?

I could see them doing it if they move Barnes or OG to the guard spot. Murray can play the 3 as well.

Murray won’t be in our range though, I think he goes top 7-8.

[will]

Watch on YouTube

Keegan Murray continuing his destruction of the NCAA.

Honestly the better Keegan plays and/or the better we play, he's going to cross the threshhold of where we are in the standings or we're going to be too good to get inside the top 10...so it won't work out. He'd be more valuable on a team built to win rather than focused on developing (or tanking or "stealth"-tanking), which I think we will want to be next year (given we have FVV/Siakam/OG). I wonder about the value of drafting another forward though, anyways. We seem to be pretty full there already, even if the organization likes 69 guys. (pause).

Yeah idk either, our front office has always picked bpa but will they draft another forward?

I could see them doing it if they move Barnes or OG to the guard spot. Murray can play the 3 as well.

Murray won’t be in our range though, I think he goes top 7-8.

Keegan is moving up with each game he plays, dammit.

Then again, we all will wait until the March Madness tourney and see what shakes down.

[canada_dry]

I've been curious about something...

The main reasons for tanking last year were that there was all-star talent to be found in a deep/top-heavy draft and it was a pandemic year where we were playing in Tampa away from home fans. This TWO line of thinking kicked off as early as our 2-8 start (after we lost 3 games in part due to bad officiating and 2 others by 1 point after Siakam missed back-to-back shots at the buzzer), but it really took off in the midst of our 9-game losing streak when the season was derailed by COVID. Most of TWO kept repeating that it was a one-off thing and we would go back to competing the following season.

The same things are being said again this season, but this time TWO was in full force before the season even started. Even after drafting Scottie (who has top 5 or even MVP potential) and Banton (who has the tools to be at the very least a good bench piece after a year or two of development) plus also trading away two of our oldest players for two additional young players. The original arguments (we need to draft a potential superstar, we need more young talent, etc.) went out the window and now the goal of TWO is to maximize our chances at finding more top-end talent to pair with Scottie by tanking another year because we aren't good enough to win the Championship right this moment.

The issue I have with TWO is the finish line seemingly keeps being pushed back. Where/when does it end? If the main goal is to hit a homerun in the draft and walk away with a superstar talent, didn't we already succeed with Scottie? How many generational talents do we need on our team before we can start competing and pushing for the playoffs to get some experience? What happens if the player we draft in 6 months ends up projecting to max out as a solid starter and/or we start off with a similar underwhelming record next season?

Some people are insisting that they're not calling for some big tank job, but we're already on year 2 of TWO and there are numerous discussions around trading at least one of Siakam/FVV for more picks. If we trade either of them (FVV in particular), suddenly we're looking at 3-4 years of tanking -- at which point, the other vet probably requests a trade or leaves during FA because they're tired of winning ~30 games and the inexperience of their teammates.

Whenever we have been healthy (even mostly healthy), we have been a good team in spite of the awful bench because our top 5 players have been so good. Scottie is way better than expected, OG and GTJ have both improved a lot over the past 12 months, FVV is still improving and Siakam has regained some all-star form. I just don't understand why we can't just play out the season and see what happens. Our best players are way too good to finish in the bottom third of the league again. Is the 10th-12th pick really that valuable that we should waste a season of potential playoff experience? Why not just live with the results whether it be good or bad?

Thats always been my issue. Moving of goal posts, being dishonest, and the fact that as a team we are just not bad enough to tank. Wont bother coming in here and debating consistently, since i trust masai and if he decides to pivot im with it. Not anti tank necessarily or 100% pro the other side.

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Yet here we are

I said consistently. Im honestly hardly in here for quite a while now lol.

Once in a while i gotta pop my head in to have a laugh tho. Know what i mean?



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[Spida888]

Sounds like the consensus in this thread is tWo not beyond the 2022 draft?

Hmmm not sure about consensus. The 2023 draft is supposed to be really good (although most drafts start off that way).

I think it really depends on what we do for this season and the upcoming draft.

[will]

All I know is, you have to be a real sick individual to want to be perpetually be in the lottery.

[will]

Sounds like the consensus in this thread is tWo not beyond the 2022 draft?

Hmmm not sure about consensus. The 2023 draft is supposed to be really good (although most drafts start off that way).

I think it really depends on what we do for this season and the upcoming draft.

You know it.

If the Raps can get a pick within the top 8. Hoo man. Get rolling then.

[will]

Thats always been my issue. Moving of goal posts, being dishonest, and the fact that as a team we are just not bad enough to tank. Wont bother coming in here and debating consistently, since i trust masai and if he decides to pivot im with it. Not anti tank necessarily or 100% pro the other side.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Yet here we are

I said consistently. Im honestly hardly in here for quite a while now lol.

Once in a while i gotta pop my head in to have a laugh tho. Know what i mean?



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I do!

[Madhouse]

Not sure what some anti-tankers don't get, no one is saying to all out tank like Hinkie for years on end, so please for the love of God stop parrotting that over n over n over.

Nor do I see anyone claiming we can out tank the garbage at the bottom of the league. Merely that they would like to see us REMAIN IN THE LOTTERY TO IMPROVE OUR ODDS of drafting another young star - not the difficult to understand if you have an above pre-school level of reading comprehension, then you can stop derailing the thread with the same drivel.

Pretty much everyone acknowledges that IF we do remain in the lottery it would be towards the back end of it and that there's good possibility we make the Playoffs but they don't want to in order again to improve our odds and that a single year of Scottie not making it isn't going to completely derail things here lol that's so ridiculously overly dramatic.

I'm not pro "tank" in the way some irrational posters like to make it to be but again to just remain in the lottery to improve our odds of another young star. If it doesn't happen, oh well, nothing can do about it and I'm happy that WE DID in order to get a young superstar like Scottie. It's been said so many times, but we all just want to get back to being a championship level team, just different perspectives/ideas of how to get there.

The non tankers want us to become the current Jazz or the Paul George Pacers.

It's fine but those expecting us to win a title out of it are delusional.

We will be good though.

We can obviously always hope to land the 3rd greatest draft steal of all time behind Jokic and Giannis.

[DelAbbot]

Sounds like the consensus in this thread is tWo not beyond the 2022 draft?

Hmmm not sure about consensus. The 2023 draft is supposed to be really good (although most drafts start off that way).

I think it really depends on what we do for this season and the upcoming draft.

2023 draft might be really good but we really are too good to get into the lottery by that time (barring injuries).

2021 draft of Barnes was a huge lucky break - let's not get greedy (for 2023).

[Madhouse]

Sounds like the consensus in this thread is tWo not beyond the 2022 draft?

Hmmm not sure about consensus. The 2023 draft is supposed to be really good (although most drafts start off that way).

I think it really depends on what we do for this season and the upcoming draft.

I have no idea how we are in the lottery beyond this season. We are a 40 win team in a development year. Easy playoff year in 2022/23 and beyond

[will]

Sounds like the consensus in this thread is tWo not beyond the 2022 draft?

Hmmm not sure about consensus. The 2023 draft is supposed to be really good (although most drafts start off that way).

I think it really depends on what we do for this season and the upcoming draft.

I have no idea how we are in the lottery beyond this season. We are a 40 win team in a development year. Easy playoff year in 2022/23 and beyond

Barring some unforeseen disaster...the Raps absolutely should not be lottery bound in 2023.

[Madhouse]

Hmmm not sure about consensus. The 2023 draft is supposed to be really good (although most drafts start off that way).

I think it really depends on what we do for this season and the upcoming draft.

I have no idea how we are in the lottery beyond this season. We are a 40 win team in a development year. Easy playoff year in 2022/23 and beyond

Barring some unforeseen disaster...the Raps absolutely should not be lottery bound in 2023.

lottery this year is the only possibility for a while.