Tank World Order (6.0)

[mademan]

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?!.

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

[canada_dry]

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

This is whats lost in all the madness lol

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[planetmars]

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

The value for missing the playoffs is not just the difference from an 11th or 12th pick compared to the 15th or 16th pick, but it also gives you a chance to move up to the top 4. Hence a chance to join the lottery.

In 2019, the Lakers moved from 11 to 4 (they had traded their pick to New Orleans).

That's really the debate in a nutshell. If you don't think this team can get past the first round, or the second round.. is it better to be slightly worse and have a chance at a top 4 pick, even if the chances are small?

[mdenny]

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

This is whats lost in all the madness lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

It's actually pretty fascinating if it could be quantified. The assertion being....from picks 1 and down.....draft order becomes more and more irrelavant. Relatively speaking of course.

Intuitively it makes sense. The difference between the first and second overall is vastly more relevant than say the 14th and 15th.

[canada_dry]

if 10-15 is really what is acceptable then why not also get playoff/play in experience AND have that 15th pick? Both r possible. Now before u talk to me about the lottery odds if we're a 13/14th pick...its still next to 0 and historically teams dont jump up from those spots in the lottery either. What are we even talking about here? The Trash World Order case just seems more and more bizarre the more they try to convince others (and themselves).

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[PhilBlackson]

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

It does however actually CLEARLY increase the ODDS, that's just factual.

But let's just rhyme off some of the players taken in the last decade or so in the 10-15 range

Devin Booker
Klay Thompson
Paul George
Donovan Mitchell
Kawhi Leonard
Michael Porter Jr
Tyler Herro
Tyrese Haliburton
SGA
Miles Bridges
Bam Adebayo
Domantus Sabonis
Zach LaVine
CJ McCollum

I haven't double checked but I'm gonna guess that 10-15 range has produced more stars over the last decade than the 16-20 did.

[Madhouse]

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

This is whats lost in all the madness lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

It's actually pretty fascinating if it could be quantified. The assertion being....from picks 1 and down.....draft order becomes more and more irrelavant. Relatively speaking of course.

Intuitively it makes sense. The difference between the first and second overall is vastly more relevant than say the 14th and 15th.

but what if we move from 14 to 1?

[canada_dry]

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

The value for missing the playoffs is not just the difference from an 11th or 12th pick compared to the 15th or 16th pick, but it also gives you a chance to move up to the top 4. Hence a chance to join the lottery.

In 2019, the Lakers moved from 11 to 4 (they had traded their pick to New Orleans).

That's really the debate in a nutshell. If you don't think this team can get past the first round, or the second round.. is it better to be slightly worse and have a chance at a top 4 pick, even if the chances are small?

So u want next to zero lottery odds... Where teams at the end of the lottery NEVER jump up to top 4 or anything like that, over real tangible playoff experience? Because thats what ur saying. Ur admitting theres essentially no difference between picking 13th and 14th, but u want those minuscule lottery odds that historically just dont work out. That...makes sense...?

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[canada_dry]

This is whats lost in all the madness lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

It's actually pretty fascinating if it could be quantified. The assertion being....from picks 1 and down.....draft order becomes more and more irrelavant. Relatively speaking of course.

Intuitively it makes sense. The difference between the first and second overall is vastly more relevant than say the 14th and 15th.

but what if we move from 14 to 1?

When has that happened? When has 14 moved top 5 let alone #1?? Come on..

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[planetmars]

Historically, the jump from like 11 (our realistic high, imo) and like 15-17 is almost irrelevant. Yes, the top of the draft is where you find the best talent, but after that, the middle of the first round is usually bunched up together. You can look as far back as you want; historically, the 11th pick doesnt produce a clearly better player than the 17th.

The idea that we should avoid the playoffs for a slightly better pick just doesnt jive. You lose playoff experience and encourage the idea that winning isnt everything, which is should be.

The value for missing the playoffs is not just the difference from an 11th or 12th pick compared to the 15th or 16th pick, but it also gives you a chance to move up to the top 4. Hence a chance to join the lottery.

In 2019, the Lakers moved from 11 to 4 (they had traded their pick to New Orleans).

That's really the debate in a nutshell. If you don't think this team can get past the first round, or the second round.. is it better to be slightly worse and have a chance at a top 4 pick, even if the chances are small?

So u want next to zero lottery odds... Where teams at the end of the lottery NEVER jump up to top 4 or anything like that, over real tangible playoff experience? Because thats what ur saying. Ur admitting theres essentially no difference between picking 13th and 14th, but u want those minuscule lottery odds that historically just dont work out. That...makes sense...?

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Woah there.. I prefer the playoff route. I'm a fan of the game and want to see 4 extra games even if they are losses. I'm just saying.. there is a 0% chance of moving to the top 4 when you make the playoffs. And there is a chance (although small) of moving up when you don't.

And that's the debate here. And it's an interesting one. The NBA has made it where being a 1st round exit team is worse than missing the playoffs, because of the lottery system. The lottery system needs to be revamped.

Again, just 3 years ago, the Lakers moved up from 11 to 4. And were 10th in the conference.. so would have been a play-in team if that existed back then.

[Psubs]

Watch on YouTube

Keegan Murray continuing his destruction of the NCAA.

Honestly the better Keegan plays and/or the better we play, he's going to cross the threshhold of where we are in the standings or we're going to be too good to get inside the top 10...so it won't work out. He'd be more valuable on a team built to win rather than focused on developing (or tanking or "stealth"-tanking), which I think we will want to be next year (given we have FVV/Siakam/OG). I wonder about the value of drafting another forward though, anyways. We seem to be pretty full there already, even if the organization likes 69 guys. (pause).

Yeah idk either, our front office has always picked bpa but will they draft another forward?

I could see them doing it if they move Barnes or OG to the guard spot. Murray can play the 3 as well.

Murray won’t be in our range though, I think he goes top 7-8.

Maybe with such a soft schedule he drops back down to say Davion Mitchell at #9.

Top 4: Jabari, Ivey, Chet, Paolo
5-8: Mathurin, Duren, Kendall, Hardy
9-10: Johnny Davis, Patrick Baldwin Jr?

So maybe he drops back to #11.

[canada_dry]

The value for missing the playoffs is not just the difference from an 11th or 12th pick compared to the 15th or 16th pick, but it also gives you a chance to move up to the top 4. Hence a chance to join the lottery.

In 2019, the Lakers moved from 11 to 4 (they had traded their pick to New Orleans).

That's really the debate in a nutshell. If you don't think this team can get past the first round, or the second round.. is it better to be slightly worse and have a chance at a top 4 pick, even if the chances are small?

So u want next to zero lottery odds... Where teams at the end of the lottery NEVER jump up to top 4 or anything like that, over real tangible playoff experience? Because thats what ur saying. Ur admitting theres essentially no difference between picking 13th and 14th, but u want those minuscule lottery odds that historically just dont work out. That...makes sense...?

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Woah there.. I prefer the playoff route. I'm a fan of the game and want to see 4 extra games even if they are losses. I'm just saying.. there is a 0% chance of moving to the top 4 when you make the playoffs. And there is a chance (although small) of moving up when you don't.

And that's the debate here. And it's an interesting one. The NBA has made it where being a 1st round exit team is worse than missing the playoffs, because of the lottery system. The lottery system needs to be revamped.

Again, just 3 years ago, the Lakers moved up from 11 to 4. And were 10th in the conference.. so would have been a play-in team if that existed back then.

Its so rare man. Especially in that 13-14 range we would be in. They simply dont jump. Maybe once in a blue moon. But not even then. I don't think its worse to be a playoff team than a late lottery team unless you're always and perpetually in that position. If you're a young team that playoff experience is invaluable and definitely worth being down literally one or 2 spots in the draft. Like we r talking pick 15, its not a discussion to be had at all.

Maybe we make the play in tournament and lose. Who knows. We keep lottery spot, and we also get SOME postseason experience.



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[canada_dry]

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?!.

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

I just realized Trash World Order is down so bad they have become what they hate.

Most of them want to be a play in team, lose, keep the late lottery pick in hopes we jump from 14 to top 4. Thats essentially what they're saying but don't realize it. They have no other option after realizing that the Raptors are too good to have a high lottery pick (which ive said from day 1). TWO is essentially dead lmao

"PlAy iN fOr WhAt??"



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[Pooh_Jeter]

There is a lot of anger and hostility building again please remember this is about basketball and nothing personal.

Cheers everyone!

[720]

There is a lot of anger and hostility building again please remember this is about basketball and nothing personal.

Cheers everyone!

A couple fake wins vs injury/Covid riddled teams has made Team Mediocre aka Team Losers come out of their caves.

[Los_29]

There is a lot of anger and hostility building again please remember this is about basketball and nothing personal.

Cheers everyone!

Completely agree Pooh, not sure why tWo is always so angry. it's the holiday season. I think it's important that we are all able to have a civil discussion on here without any insults and personal attacks.

[planetmars]

So u want next to zero lottery odds... Where teams at the end of the lottery NEVER jump up to top 4 or anything like that, over real tangible playoff experience? Because thats what ur saying. Ur admitting theres essentially no difference between picking 13th and 14th, but u want those minuscule lottery odds that historically just dont work out. That...makes sense...?

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Woah there.. I prefer the playoff route. I'm a fan of the game and want to see 4 extra games even if they are losses. I'm just saying.. there is a 0% chance of moving to the top 4 when you make the playoffs. And there is a chance (although small) of moving up when you don't.

And that's the debate here. And it's an interesting one. The NBA has made it where being a 1st round exit team is worse than missing the playoffs, because of the lottery system. The lottery system needs to be revamped.

Again, just 3 years ago, the Lakers moved up from 11 to 4. And were 10th in the conference.. so would have been a play-in team if that existed back then.

Its so rare man. Especially in that 13-14 range we would be in. They simply dont jump. Maybe once in a blue moon. But not even then. I don't think its worse to be a playoff team than a late lottery team unless you're always and perpetually in that position. If you're a young team that playoff experience is invaluable and definitely worth being down literally one or 2 spots in the draft. Like we r talking pick 15, its not a discussion to be had at all.

Maybe we make the play in tournament and lose. Who knows. We keep lottery spot, and we also get SOME postseason experience.



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It's really a win-win for you then. If they make the play-in you get 1 playoff game. If they lose, you have a chance to see if they can move to top 4, even if the chances are slim. That's the way I feel anyway.

What I can see is that management is not caring either way. They might actually be okay if they don't get in. Our bench has been putrid all season, and our backup point guard play has basically been non-existent. Depth is pretty easy to patch up.. but we're just not doing it. Rubio is out for the season, and the Cavs pretty quickly fix that by trading for Rondo.. and didn't have to give up much for him in the process.

Let's see how our core does. The floor is theirs and now they have no excuses (ie, nobody is hurt). I suspect they'll get in though, unless someone (basically Fred) gets hurt again. I like how they play when everyone is healthy. And I think it's somewhat translatable for the playoffs, but a win will depend on match up. I don't think we'll do well against a Milwaukee or Brooklyn type team. But I think we could beat a team like Miami or Chicago.

[Madhouse]

It's actually pretty fascinating if it could be quantified. The assertion being....from picks 1 and down.....draft order becomes more and more irrelavant. Relatively speaking of course.

Intuitively it makes sense. The difference between the first and second overall is vastly more relevant than say the 14th and 15th.

but what if we move from 14 to 1?

When has that happened? When has 14 moved top 5 let alone #1?? Come on..

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never but that's why you play the game.

[NBA Sheady]

I don't understand what your gripe is about...

It's been repeated over & over & over that NO ONE is saying to tank in perpetuity so can we please stop talking/acting like that's the case?!.

Show me where I've said anything to indicate I think that is the case.

I'm saying you can't go from tanking to winning. If you could, there would be more than a few odd examples in the entirety of NBA history.

Tell me how you go from tanking to winning the very next season. What are the steps? What is the plan?

Let's repeat this yet again...

NO ONE is saying we need to actually tank (re-read that until it absorbs in and then do it again), no one believes we can bottom out below all the garbage below us in the standings OR that we will/should do that for years on end. That's just some ridiculous drivel that ironically TM posters resort to making these foolish hyperbolic statements that no one is actually saying in order to get attention/response. It's about remaining in the lottery to increase the likelihood of drafting another star young player which happens repeatedly.

We're talking about finishing in the 10-15th seed (with the possibility of moving up in the draft) to being Playoff bound the next season, is that really such a difficult jump to comprehend?!?? lol

I've asked you to explain your plan and you haven't. I will conclude you don't have one.

[NBA Sheady]

But we didn’t lose any of them because of the city or the country. We lost them because of terrible management OR they were traded.

We were a very dysfunctional franchise. This is well documented. The idea that players don’t want to play here is just simply not true which is why we’ve had zero problems re-signing players the past 10 years. Only exception was Kawhi who always seen as a rental and wanted to play in ONE and only one city and that was LA, his hometown.

If players wanted to play here we wouldn't be constantly signing bottom-of-the-barrel and mid-tier free agents.

Things are definitely better though. I think we at least have a slight chance of retaining Scottie.

thats 8 years down the road anyway

Man, I wish he had 7 years left on his deal. Hopefully what you're implying is how it plays out.