Tank World Order (6.0)

[ATLTimekeeper]

The same people who were fighting tooth & nail for this "invaluable Playoff experience" LAST year, are the same ones now signing from the mountain tops how wonderful it is to have gotten Barnes as a result of tanking.

You simply can't shake that level of cognitive dissonance.

The same people that were arguing that we should only tank because we were in Tampa and it's a lost cause anyway are arguing to tank again. This is a weak dig.

I'm happy they got Fred undrafted and Siakam at the end of the first round. Draft position doesn't mean much to me. If they drafted Sengun in the mid-first, I would have been happy with that pick, too.

Well somehow you believe getting Sengun is just as good as Barnes so therein lies the problem lol

He's definitely not this year, but he's a good pick.

[canada_dry]

The same people who were fighting tooth & nail for this "invaluable Playoff experience" LAST year, are the same ones now signing from the mountain tops how wonderful it is to have gotten Barnes as a result of tanking.

You simply can't shake that level of cognitive dissonance.

My guy you're the one advocating for a play in appearance over a playoff appearance lol.

Trash World Order days r numbered by the looks.of things.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Hate to break it to ya, but the tWo movement is strong.

The season is merely 2 full months in.

I'll be back in a couple weeks. Maybe a month. The tanks will have been lit on fire and you guys will be clinging for a play in loss. Lol

TWO days are indeed numbered my friend

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[Los_29]

Yes, anyone who doesn't agree with you is failing to comprehend or a bot.

It's quite clearly in the post and like I said earlier, you said that players don't want to play here. That is completely false as we've had no problems re-signing our players over the past decade. Zero problems whatsoever. Ibaka, Demar, Lowry, Pascal, FVV, JV, OG.

Then you moved the goal posts and said "well we can't sign any free agents." Well first of all, that's different to your original statement and secondly, when have we tried? When have we been both an elite team and had cap space. How many free agents did GSW sign before KD? Do you think they sign KD if they didn't have Curry/Dray/Klay? Do you think Aldridge signs with the Spurs if they didn't have the team that they had?

There are about 27 teams in the league that have had problems signing free agents.

When people talk free agency and Raptors it comes in as a negative connotation because since the beginning we've struggled to keep our own "stars". Specifically with guys like Damon, T-Mac, Vince, Davis, and Bosh all wanting out. Not a free agent, but Mourning essentially "retired" so he didn't play here. And then it got compounded when Kawhi left for LAC post championship. Even over the hill Gasol decided to leave Toronto for LA on a vet minimum deal no less.

But we've had plenty of successes too.. and I guess the definition of "star" changes with that success because it changes the narrative. Kyle, DeMar, JV, and Serge all wanted to stay. Fred came back. Norm came back. Pascal and OG came back (although were rookie deals).

But if you want to look at free agency in a negative light.. you can again if you look at guys that weren't originally Raptors. Even under the Masai era it's been more misses than hits. Starting with Carroll. But you can include CoJo, Scola, Miles, McCaw, Stanimal, Rondae, Baynes, Len, and currently Svi.

The only hits may have been Biyombo and Birch. And I use "hit" loosely there.

After Carroll though we've never been in a position to sign a big time free agent (ie, over the mid level) until last season, and then decided not to use that cap space anyway. Maybe a lesson we learned from the Carroll years.

What you mentioned all happened in the late 1990's and early 2000's. While with the Spurs Kawhi wanted to go to one city and one city only. We traded for him and he was widely seen as a rental. With that said, he still actually considered playing here and would have played here had we traded for Paul George. Paul George was also open to playing here (according to reports). And don't think you can bring up a 36 year old Gasol who loved Toronto and wanted to come back here. That really doesn't fit into these examples at all.

You can't bring up players like Len, Baynes, Rondae, Svi, McCaw, Miles and Stanley as examples because these guys were and are end of the bench or fringe rotation guys. Every team in the league signs players like this every offseason and 99% of the time they don't pan out. They were also all signed for practically nothing. Carroll was our biggest FA signing under Masai and he was actually highly coveted and unfortunately didn't workout due to injuries.

Regardless, the initial statement was that players didn't enjoy playing here. That is simply false. We know for an absolute fact that players love playing here.

[PhilBlackson]

The same people that were arguing that we should only tank because we were in Tampa and it's a lost cause anyway are arguing to tank again. This is a weak dig.

I'm happy they got Fred undrafted and Siakam at the end of the first round. Draft position doesn't mean much to me. If they drafted Sengun in the mid-first, I would have been happy with that pick, too.

Well somehow you believe getting Sengun is just as good as Barnes so therein lies the problem lol

He's definitely not this year, but he's a good pick.

The question isn't if he's a good pick but if he's AS good...which he's not and what made it worthwhile not to squeek into the Playoffs because it changes the trajectory of our franchise.

[Los_29]

And this doesn't even include if we whiff on the lottery and get a non-superstar. That'll just add more years.

Great point. Another problem with this strategy (if you can even call it one) is that it leaves no margin for error.

We're all dying to hear....

Spit out YOUR infallible strategy Los, we'll all wait.

GO!

I'm a big fan of strategies that actually work and have a long track record of success.

[canada_dry]

Well somehow you believe getting Sengun is just as good as Barnes so therein lies the problem lol

He's definitely not this year, but he's a good pick.

The question isn't if he's a good pick but if he's AS good...which he's not and what made it worthwhile not to squeek into the Playoffs because it changes the trajectory of our franchise.

You're comparing pick 4 to pick 16 lmao

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[NBA Sheady]

When people talk free agency and Raptors it comes in as a negative connotation because since the beginning we've struggled to keep our own "stars". Specifically with guys like Damon, T-Mac, Vince, Davis, and Bosh all wanting out. Not a free agent, but Mourning essentially "retired" so he didn't play here. And then it got compounded when Kawhi left for LAC post championship. Even over the hill Gasol decided to leave Toronto for LA on a vet minimum deal no less.

But we've had plenty of successes too.. and I guess the definition of "star" changes with that success because it changes the narrative. Kyle, DeMar, JV, and Serge all wanted to stay. Fred came back. Norm came back. Pascal and OG came back (although were rookie deals).

But if you want to look at free agency in a negative light.. you can again if you look at guys that weren't originally Raptors. Even under the Masai era it's been more misses than hits. Starting with Carroll. But you can include CoJo, Scola, Miles, McCaw, Stanimal, Rondae, Baynes, Len, and currently Svi.

The only hits may have been Biyombo and Birch. And I use "hit" loosely there.

After Carroll though we've never been in a position to sign a big time free agent (ie, over the mid level) until last season, and then decided not to use that cap space anyway. Maybe a lesson we learned from the Carroll years.

Lots of stars end up being part of S&T's and three ways.

Not having capsace is equal parts cop-out and valid observation IMO.

Any team that participates in a sign and trade for a player/free agent is usually able to get that player with cap space anyway.. thus have negotiation power in the trade agreement.

Find me an example of a team that got a star player through a sign and trade, that didn't already have cap space. It will be very difficult.

I definitely wasn't thinking of a scenario where we didn't have cap. There have been seasons where an S&T or 3 way was possible.

In my opinion we've lost every star player that has come through here except for 1 Vince deal which ultimately lead to him demanding out resulting in a crippling trade.

[Bruin]

He's definitely not this year, but he's a good pick.

The question isn't if he's a good pick but if he's AS good...which he's not and what made it worthwhile not to squeek into the Playoffs because it changes the trajectory of our franchise.

You're comparing pick 4 to pick 16 lmao

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Doesn’t that essentially support the idea of tanking?

[Parataxis]

It's really a win-win for you then. If they make the play-in you get 1 playoff game. If they lose, you have a chance to see if they can move to top 4, even if the chances are slim. That's the way I feel anyway.

What I can see is that management is not caring either way. They might actually be okay if they don't get in.

This is pretty much where I've been guessing that our FO is at. It's a development year, and they're going to let things sit where they lay.

If something goes horribly wrong, and we're out of the play in picture with a month left to go - rest the team, but go hard when you are playing, and take the losses.

If we're in the play in picture then play in, get that quasi-post season experience, and win or lose, we're fine - either a slightly better pick, or a bit more post-season experience.

And if somehow we're fighting for a 6 or better seed? Well, fight for it, and let's see how everybody does under pressure.

There's no bad end to this season, at least not on the court (the world is another story)

This is what they did last year, too, which is what all teams really should do. They were doing about the same around the covid outbreak. Then they made the correct decision to lose games on purpose.

Yup, this is smart management. (Although they didn't 'lose games on purpose', really. They just allowed themselves to be in a position where winning games would be more difficult than it otherwise might have been. But I don't think that they purposefully lost any of them)

[TRik]

Like Sengun, but he’s like a slow PF in a SF body.

Smart player though.

[Los_29]

Lots of stars end up being part of S&T's and three ways.

Not having capsace is equal parts cop-out and valid observation IMO.

Any team that participates in a sign and trade for a player/free agent is usually able to get that player with cap space anyway.. thus have negotiation power in the trade agreement.

Find me an example of a team that got a star player through a sign and trade, that didn't already have cap space. It will be very difficult.

I definitely wasn't thinking of a scenario where we didn't have cap. There have been seasons where an S&T or 3 way was possible.

In my opinion we've lost every star player that has come through here except for 1 Vince deal which ultimately lead to him demanding out resulting in a crippling trade.

Thank god we’re not as bad as Miami. They’ve lost Lebron, Wade and Shaq.

[PhilBlackson]

But but... play in for what??

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Only displaying your own stupidity lol making the Play IN (keyword "IN" as in, into the Playoffs) is what YOU are advocating. We're advocating to remain OUT of the Playoffs and in the lottery.

How many times do you need to embarrass yourself before you log off?!

The play IN is the tournament u dolt lol. U are basically conceding they'll at least be in that mini postseason tournament and want them in and to lose. That's what would have to happen to be in that 13/14 range u suggested.

I personally said above its not the worst outcome because theres at least one or 2 games of postseason experience to be had, while u , sir, keep ur one in a thousand odds of jumping into the top 4 of the draft.

The hilariousness of it is that TWO as a group go from " play in for what??" To pro play in. U hate to see it lol.

Remember what we were saying about changing of goal posts and changing of feathers? Lol

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Your stupidity truly knows no bounds.

I'll break it down so even a child like you can understand. There is no "conceding", I said LONG before you ever showed up in this thread, in fact from the 1st original "tank" thread, that I believed this team this would likely finish anywhere between 11-17 dependant on health. There's nothing to "concede" because that was a conclusion made BEFORE ever wasting my time on your low brow conversation with you. It's also not a "desire" to make the Play In...because that would mean I want the team to make the Play In, I don't...I want them to remain in the lottery, not the same thing. I'd like them to avoid it entirely and just remain in the lottery BUT I'm a logical person (if only you were lol) and I know the teams below are simply awful teams that the Raps aren't likely to fall behind them pending a major injury so that's the most probable landing spot which coincides with my original prediction and all I've said is that I prefer they stay IN the lottery (not the Play In) vs out of it as 7/8 seed in the Playoffs. That's just being objective, one day when you grow up, maybe you'll be able to get to that point.

So no goal posts have shifted here at all, you're just so poorly misinformed and speak like someone who thinks they know what they're talking about but so clearly doesn't.

[PhilBlackson]

Great point. Another problem with this strategy (if you can even call it one) is that it leaves no margin for error.

We're all dying to hear....

Spit out YOUR infallible strategy Los, we'll all wait.

GO!

I'm a big fan of strategies that actually work and have a long track record of success.

Still waiting for yours....tick tock.

[PhilBlackson]

The question isn't if he's a good pick but if he's AS good...which he's not and what made it worthwhile not to squeek into the Playoffs because it changes the trajectory of our franchise.

You're comparing pick 4 to pick 16 lmao

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Doesn’t that essentially support the idea of tanking?

Although a tool, certainly not the sharpest one in the shed.

[DelAbbot]

[NBA Sheady]

Any team that participates in a sign and trade for a player/free agent is usually able to get that player with cap space anyway.. thus have negotiation power in the trade agreement.

Find me an example of a team that got a star player through a sign and trade, that didn't already have cap space. It will be very difficult.

I definitely wasn't thinking of a scenario where we didn't have cap. There have been seasons where an S&T or 3 way was possible.

In my opinion we've lost every star player that has come through here except for 1 Vince deal which ultimately lead to him demanding out resulting in a crippling trade.

Thank god we’re not as bad as Miami. They’ve lost Lebron, Wade and Shaq.

That's a good way to look at it.

[planetmars]

Find me an example of a team that got a star player through a sign and trade, that didn't already have cap space. It will be very difficult.

The Heat, IIRC. Unless I'm misremembering, they didn't have the space to sign both Bosh and Bron without a S&T

It wasn't really needed.. remember the Raptors got a huge TPE and their pick back (well the unprotected portion of it back). Bosh and Lebron took pay cuts to join together. Miami had it all laid out. The Raps helped of course by trading O'Neal to Miami for 2 years of Marion's deal. By removing that extra year off of Marion's contract, it helped them get the cap space they needed that season to sign all three guys.

[planetmars]

It's quite clearly in the post and like I said earlier, you said that players don't want to play here. That is completely false as we've had no problems re-signing our players over the past decade. Zero problems whatsoever. Ibaka, Demar, Lowry, Pascal, FVV, JV, OG.

Then you moved the goal posts and said "well we can't sign any free agents." Well first of all, that's different to your original statement and secondly, when have we tried? When have we been both an elite team and had cap space. How many free agents did GSW sign before KD? Do you think they sign KD if they didn't have Curry/Dray/Klay? Do you think Aldridge signs with the Spurs if they didn't have the team that they had?

There are about 27 teams in the league that have had problems signing free agents.

When people talk free agency and Raptors it comes in as a negative connotation because since the beginning we've struggled to keep our own "stars". Specifically with guys like Damon, T-Mac, Vince, Davis, and Bosh all wanting out. Not a free agent, but Mourning essentially "retired" so he didn't play here. And then it got compounded when Kawhi left for LAC post championship. Even over the hill Gasol decided to leave Toronto for LA on a vet minimum deal no less.

But we've had plenty of successes too.. and I guess the definition of "star" changes with that success because it changes the narrative. Kyle, DeMar, JV, and Serge all wanted to stay. Fred came back. Norm came back. Pascal and OG came back (although were rookie deals).

But if you want to look at free agency in a negative light.. you can again if you look at guys that weren't originally Raptors. Even under the Masai era it's been more misses than hits. Starting with Carroll. But you can include CoJo, Scola, Miles, McCaw, Stanimal, Rondae, Baynes, Len, and currently Svi.

The only hits may have been Biyombo and Birch. And I use "hit" loosely there.

After Carroll though we've never been in a position to sign a big time free agent (ie, over the mid level) until last season, and then decided not to use that cap space anyway. Maybe a lesson we learned from the Carroll years.

What you mentioned all happened in the late 1990's and early 2000's. While with the Spurs Kawhi wanted to go to one city and one city only. We traded for him and he was widely seen as a rental. With that said, he still actually considered playing here and would have played here had we traded for Paul George. Paul George was also open to playing here (according to reports). And don't think you can bring up a 36 year old Gasol who loved Toronto and wanted to come back here. That really doesn't fit into these examples at all.

You can't bring up players like Len, Baynes, Rondae, Svi, McCaw, Miles and Stanley as examples because these guys were and are end of the bench or fringe rotation guys. Every team in the league signs players like this every offseason and 99% of the time they don't pan out. They were also all signed for practically nothing. Carroll was our biggest FA signing under Masai and he was actually highly coveted and unfortunately didn't workout due to injuries.

Regardless, the initial statement was that players didn't enjoy playing here. That is simply false. We know for an absolute fact that players love playing here.

I was actually agreeing with you. I was just describing why some fans might use free agency as an example of things that don't work.. and go back to the 90's and 00's with examples.. and then compound that all with the Kawhi example. I think earlier someone even said superstar in quotes when talking free agents that don't stick around. Of course "superstar" has different meanings for different people. It's all about narrative. I think Kyle was a superstar in my opinion.. and he re-signed.

[Los_29]

We're all dying to hear....

Spit out YOUR infallible strategy Los, we'll all wait.

GO!

I'm a big fan of strategies that actually work and have a long track record of success.

Still waiting for yours....tick tock.

Two recent examples would be the Bucks and our very own Raptors.

Timely trades and signings, drafting and developing players, accumulating assets, cap management.

[planetmars]

Lots of stars end up being part of S&T's and three ways.

Not having capsace is equal parts cop-out and valid observation IMO.

Any team that participates in a sign and trade for a player/free agent is usually able to get that player with cap space anyway.. thus have negotiation power in the trade agreement.

Find me an example of a team that got a star player through a sign and trade, that didn't already have cap space. It will be very difficult.

I definitely wasn't thinking of a scenario where we didn't have cap. There have been seasons where an S&T or 3 way was possible.

In my opinion we've lost every star player that has come through here except for 1 Vince deal which ultimately lead to him demanding out resulting in a crippling trade.

You have to define "star" if you want to use it here, sorry. Kyle and DeMar were all-stars.. and they re-signed. Pascal was an all-star (all-nba even) and he re-signed (although as a rookie contract).

If you mean "super star".. in the general context, then we've only ever had 2 in our franchise. And the one did re-sign from his rookie contract. And that was in an era when he could have left as a rookie, as his cousin did.

And you have to come up with examples for me where a team got a free agent from a sign and trade, without having cap space.. please try to use the most recent CBA's as well if possible.