Should Fred Van Vleet be an all-star?

[JLei]

Yes and easily.

[MGB8]

We really aren't though. Our front 5 are great (Fred, Trent, OG, Barnes, Siakam) but it's a massive drop off after that. Our bench is horrendous.

Boucher isn’t horrendous, nor Precious. Neither is Birch. So 4-5 depth is top notch, and since Barnes can slide to the 3 and playoff rotations are tight, it’s the 1-2 that is the depth problem. Raps would be better off with as I and Flynn being third stringers rather than 2nd…l. If there was only an experienced combo guard out there, with serious playoff experiences, capable of playing the 1 or 2, can shoot and create - can sacrifice some D because of backstop.

I read about this guy who played in Miami for a few years recently, then got traded… where in the world did he end up?

Boucher has been pretty bad this season. Incredibly inconsistent.
Precious ( love the potential ) but is an overall negative on offense.
Birch has been injured a bunch.

Yuta is our best bench player, that's... a problem. The rest is Banton, Flynn, Svi, Champagne.

You'd would be hard pressed to find a worse bench in the league.

Not many teams have non-inconsistent or otherwise flawed reserves. If they weren’t flawed, they’d be starters. Boucher is a solid reserve big, and so is Precious. Birch is an excellent 5th big.

Don’t know much about Yuma, do know that Flynn and Svi have flashed bits, but have their own issues (especially on D)…. but with a strong top 5, you need 4 more guys for a playoff rotation, and 2 of those are covered by the reserve switchable 4-5s. Assuming health, not a horrid challenge. And if Wantabe is legit playoff-rotation worthy, that means that the Raps are one legit 3rd / combo guard away…. Like that Euro guy…

[gp2015]

Boucher isn’t horrendous, nor Precious. Neither is Birch. So 4-5 depth is top notch, and since Barnes can slide to the 3 and playoff rotations are tight, it’s the 1-2 that is the depth problem. Raps would be better off with as I and Flynn being third stringers rather than 2nd…l. If there was only an experienced combo guard out there, with serious playoff experiences, capable of playing the 1 or 2, can shoot and create - can sacrifice some D because of backstop.

I read about this guy who played in Miami for a few years recently, then got traded… where in the world did he end up?

Boucher has been pretty bad this season. Incredibly inconsistent.
Precious ( love the potential ) but is an overall negative on offense.
Birch has been injured a bunch.

Yuta is our best bench player, that's... a problem. The rest is Banton, Flynn, Svi, Champagne.

You'd would be hard pressed to find a worse bench in the league.

Not many teams have non-inconsistent or otherwise flawed reserves. If they weren’t flawed, they’d be starters. Boucher is a solid reserve big, and so is Precious. Birch is an excellent 5th big.

Don’t know much about Yuma, do know that Flynn and Svi have flashed bits, but have their own issues (especially on D)…. but with a strong top 5, you need 4 more guys for a playoff rotation, and 2 of those are covered by the reserve switchable 4-5s. Assuming health, not a horrid challenge. And if Wantabe is legit playoff-rotation worthy, that means that the Raps are one legit 3rd / combo guard away…. Like that Euro guy…

There's a reason why we have the worst bench scoring in the entire league.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StarterBench=Bench

[MGB8]

Boucher has been pretty bad this season. Incredibly inconsistent.
Precious ( love the potential ) but is an overall negative on offense.
Birch has been injured a bunch.

Yuta is our best bench player, that's... a problem. The rest is Banton, Flynn, Svi, Champagne.

You'd would be hard pressed to find a worse bench in the league.

Not many teams have non-inconsistent or otherwise flawed reserves. If they weren’t flawed, they’d be starters. Boucher is a solid reserve big, and so is Precious. Birch is an excellent 5th big.

Don’t know much about Yuma, do know that Flynn and Svi have flashed bits, but have their own issues (especially on D)…. but with a strong top 5, you need 4 more guys for a playoff rotation, and 2 of those are covered by the reserve switchable 4-5s. Assuming health, not a horrid challenge. And if Wantabe is legit playoff-rotation worthy, that means that the Raps are one legit 3rd / combo guard away…. Like that Euro guy…

There's a reason why we have the worst bench scoring in the entire league.

https://www.nba.com/stats/teams/traditional/?sort=PTS&dir=1&Season=2021-22&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&StarterBench=Bench

Did you notice that 3 of the 4 top bench scoring teams are bottom feeders. Chicago is the 2nd worst bench scoring team. Followed by the Celtics, Bucks, Sixers and Nets.

But, yeah, Toronto lacks a strong bench scorer. But literally 1 strong bench scorer and they are middling rather than poor in that regard.

The bigger issue is lack of elite offensive scoring in the starting unit, where it’s all “good” to “very good” producers rather than anyone truly elite. But that is offset by team ball and defensive talent.. kind of the inverse of the Bulls “offense first” squad.

[ForeverTFC]

Here are the east's best by PER, 30mpg:
1 Giannis Antetokounmpo, MIL
2 Joel Embiid, PHI
3 Jimmy Butler, MIA
4 Trae Young, ATL
5 Kevin Durant, BKN
6 Jarrett Allen, CLE
7 DeMar DeRozan, CHI
8 Domantas Sabonis, IND
9 Zach LaVine, CHI
10 Clint Capela, ATL
11 Daniel Gafford, WSH
12 James Harden, BKN
13 John Collins, ATL
14 LaMelo Ball, CHA
15 Jrue Holiday, MIL
16 Bam Adebayo, MIA
17 Fred VanVleet, TOR

I know PER isn't the end all be all stat but there are a lot of very productive players on playoff level teams. FVV would have to jump over several in order to get on the roster.

You conceded that PER is flawed - especially for guards - so I'll engage on this in good faith.

No brainer LOCKS - 9 players: Giannis, Embiid, Butler, Young, Durant, Allen, DeRozan, Lavine, Holiday

So we have 3 spots to fill to get to 12:
In the running- 5 players: Sabonis, Harden, Ball, Bam, FVV
Not in the running OUT - 3 player: Gafford, Collins, Capela

so 5 players to fill the spots. Bam probably missed too much time and won't be there. Harden likely gets in. So now you have 2 spots for Sabonis, Lamelo and FVV. Let's pick across the criteria people have mentioned:
1. Team success: Raps and Hornets both at .500, Indiana way below
2. Counting stats: FVV leads in PPG and 3p% (shooting 40% from 3 while 6th in 3p attempts per game in the league), Ball leads in APG, Sabonis has the big man stats
3. Defense: FVV unquestionably the best defender of the bunch
4. Advanced stats: FVV just crushes here

So even if we go off of PER, FVV should get in. Now, this doesn't have Tatum on it and Boston likely gets a player but I can't see how "it's not even close" that FVV is an all-star this year. It's clearly extremely close and some of the best pundits in the league (e.g. Zach Lowe) say he should be a lock.
-

[Alfred]

No. East is WAY too guard heavy and the Raps are WAY too bad.

I’ll have you know that the Raptors are in fact the definition of mediocre!

[pipfan]

I think he is a marginal All Star-he will sneak into the game at some point. He is deserving.
The real question is, should Tor deal him and Siakam and rebuild?-I would, if I were them. Build around OG, Trent and Barnes-maybe Precious too

[AussieCeltic]

Casuals. Raptors literally have only one more loss than the 5th seed 76ers.

And have A LOT of tough games coming up if you bothered to look ahead on the schedule.

Lmaooo what do their future games have to do with their current record???? You claim they are "WAY too bad", even though they're a .500 team despite being one of the most injury depleted teams in the league this season.

Every fricken team is depleted!!

Games you’ve won without the oppositions best player.

- Spurs without Murray
- Knicks without Randle
- Clippers without Kawhi/PG
- Warriors without Curry/Green
- Bucks without Giannis
- Sixers without Embiid

I’m not saying Raptors are a bad team or they haven’t had covid issues but so has everyone. That excuse doesn’t fly anymore.

[Dan Z]

Interesting that there's now a thread on the GB debating whether Ja Morant is the best PG in the league this year while in this thread lots of folks insist Freddy isn't an all-star. And yet their numbers are almost identical except for Ja having 4 more ppg.

ppg: Ja 25, FVV 21 (Ja 19 FGA, FVV 16.6 FGA)
rbd: Ja 5.7, FVV 5
ast: Ja, 6.7, FVV 6.7
stl: Ja 1.4, FVV 1.6
blk: Ja 0.3, FVV, 0.6
3pt%: Ja .40, FVV .40
2pt%: Ja .518, FVV .481
FT%: Ja .766, FVV .878
eFG%: Ja .538, FVV .544
TOV: Ja 3.2, FVV 2.9

On top of that Ja's Usage is 32% whereas FVV's is 24%, so Ja uses up 30% more possessions to get those numbers than Freddy.

Now I don't think Ja is the best PG in the league but he has been damn good, yet still hasn't been better than Freddy. Just saying.

Ja is the best player on Memphis so of course he'll have more usage. He also has had moments this season where he took over at the end of a game(s) to help his team win. I guess you haven't watched him play this year.

FVV is a good player, but hasn't played better than Morant despite all the advance stats you want to pick out. Basketball isn't mathematics.

[Gasolina]

Not this year, because their record is likely to be too poor. But he will make multiple teams in the future. He’s a highly impactful player. One of those casual filters.

[SoulJah]

HELL NO! This is a cute story, but the All Star game is for actual stars who lead their teams to wins.

lol theres some Raptors fans who wouldn't trade FVV for Simmons. As many issues as Simmons has, hes a better player than FVV.

I'm a Raptors fan but I think Philly would dump Simmons for FVV in a heart beat... FVV is a much better player and rises up in a clutch unlike Simmons who's over-rated af. I'm sure even Philly fans agree how over-rate he is now.

[payton2kemp]

HELL NO! This is a cute story, but the All Star game is for actual stars who lead their teams to wins.

lol theres some Raptors fans who wouldn't trade FVV for Simmons. As many issues as Simmons has, hes a better player than FVV.

I'm a Raptors fan but I think Philly would dump Simmons for FVV in a heart beat... FVV is a much better player and rises up in a clutch unlike Simmons who's over-rated af. I'm sure even Philly fans agree how over-rate he is now.

The Sixers were a first seed with Simmons last year. This year the Sixers are struggling without him. The Raptors were a lottery team with FVV last year, and are in 9th place so far this year so still a lottery team, hes and overrated midget point guard.

[Lockdown504090]

And have A LOT of tough games coming up if you bothered to look ahead on the schedule.

Lmaooo what do their future games have to do with their current record???? You claim they are "WAY too bad", even though they're a .500 team despite being one of the most injury depleted teams in the league this season.

Every fricken team is depleted!!

Games you’ve won without the oppositions best player.

- Spurs without Murray
- Knicks without Randle
- Clippers without Kawhi/PG
- Warriors without Curry/Green
- Bucks without Giannis
- Sixers without Embiid

I’m not saying Raptors are a bad team or they haven’t had covid issues but so has everyone. That excuse doesn’t fly anymore.

isnt everyone either depleted or playing against depleted teams this year? i agree that that has a bearing if this is a discussion of how good a player he is, but not really in one if hes an all star. if we were giving a player of the week award, i dont think that would have a signifigant bearing on who gets it, so i dont think that will factor in when it comes all star time.

[Chandan]

god i hope not. Dont need him to start thinking he's a legit first option in this league for the sake of our future.

[dlts20]

HELL NO! This is a cute story, but the All Star game is for actual stars who lead their teams to wins.

Guess Lebron won’t be there since he’s led his team to the same record as Toronto this season?

So many infantile responses in this thread.

I doubt Fred makes it simply because the East is so guard heavy this year. Trae, Demar, Lavine, Beal and Harden are all going to be in front of him and then there’s a bunch of guys having just as good a year as Van Vleet vying for the last spot. Hope he makes it but don’t think it will happen.

I think FVV is more deserving than Beal this year. Beal's play have taken a big hit vs last year.

You clearly have not been watching Beal since the start of the season. He's been killing it and looking better than ever

[AussieCeltic]

Fred league ranks, before tonight:

Raptor #5
EPM #9
TPA #15
DPM #26
Lebron #30


The question isn't whether he should make the all-star team, but which All-NBA team he should make.

Going by RAPTOR then Derrick White, Steven Adams, D-Lo, Alex Caruso, Derrick Rose, Marcus Smart, Alec Burks, Jarred Vanderbilt are all All Star players.

Going by EPM then Javale Mcgee, Gary Payton II, Isiah Hartenstein, Kevin Love, Mike Muscala should all be all stars.

And so on and so forth.

Look he’s a fringe all star but not even close to all nba.

[everdiso]

Fred league ranks, before tonight:

Raptor #5
EPM #9
TPA #15
DPM #26
Lebron #30


The question isn't whether he should make the all-star team, but which All-NBA team he should make.

Going by RAPTOR then Derrick White, Steven Adams, D-Lo, Alex Caruso, Derrick Rose, Marcus Smart, Alec Burks, Jarred Vanderbilt are all All Star players.

Going by EPM then Javale Mcgee, Gary Payton II, Isiah Hartenstein, Kevin Love, Mike Muscala should all be all stars.

And so on and so forth.

Look he’s a fringe all star but not even close to all nba.

1. None of those guys are at the top of ALL the metrics like Fred is

2. Yes it's easy for small-role small-minutes to put up gaudy impact metrics. This is irrelevant to Fred, who plays the most minutes in the league, as a primary ballhandler.

[JN61]

No. Not good enough and raptors are 10th seed. Maybe if they were top 3 team.

We’re tied for 8th seed and just half a game back from 7th seed lol

Some of you are just spewing BS

That was their record before last night's game genius.. regardless how is he going to be selected as 20/6 guy playing huge minutes as all-star over multiple time all-stars putting up better numbers on better record teams? He is not.

[old skool]

VanVleet has a shot at making the East All-Star team. Maybe among the top 12. Definitely should make the top 15 that will be considered when a small handful of players are named but left off the roster due to injury. It's been a crazy year, with the prospect for more unpredictable craziness before it is all done.

[AussieCeltic]

Fred league ranks, before tonight:

Raptor #5
EPM #9
TPA #15
DPM #26
Lebron #30


The question isn't whether he should make the all-star team, but which All-NBA team he should make.

Going by RAPTOR then Derrick White, Steven Adams, D-Lo, Alex Caruso, Derrick Rose, Marcus Smart, Alec Burks, Jarred Vanderbilt are all All Star players.

Going by EPM then Javale Mcgee, Gary Payton II, Isiah Hartenstein, Kevin Love, Mike Muscala should all be all stars.

And so on and so forth.

Look he’s a fringe all star but not even close to all nba.

1. None of those guys are at the top of ALL the metrics like Fred is

2. Yes it's easy for small-role small-minutes to put up gaudy impact metrics. This is irrelevant to Fred, who plays the most minutes in the league, as a primary ballhandler.

Pretty much all those guys are playing large mins aside from Hartenstein and Muscala.

He’s not an All NBA guy, no matter how much you want it to happen. I’ll bet my house that he won’t make all nba this season.