Some relevant individual December stats so far

[Manocad]

I think the issue with being surprised by Wagner's draft position (he was called a reach by a LOT of people) and current performance is recency bias. If you're not a Michigan fan you probably only saw him play in the tournament and while Michigan had a pretty good tournament run, Wagner had some pretty ugly performances. But anyone who's a big Michigan fan and watched him play for two years at Michigan can tell you that while he rarely put up eye-popping stats, there isn't anything he doesn't do well. Maybe not super well and maybe not all the time, but he doesn't have any holes in his game. He can score in any way possible, he can defend guards and bigs because he has good movement and quick hands, and he's an outstanding passer.

Since he doesn't do anything super well I don't see him as going on to be a max player/HOFer but I can definitely see him as being a solid #2 that any team could use.

[bstein14]

I think the issue with being surprised by Wagner's draft position (he was called a reach by a LOT of people) and current performance is recency bias. If you're not a Michigan fan you probably only saw him play in the tournament and while Michigan had a pretty good tournament run, Wagner had some pretty ugly performances. But anyone who's a big Michigan fan and watched him play for two years at Michigan can tell you that while he rarely put up eye-popping stats, there isn't anything he doesn't do well. Maybe not super well and maybe not all the time, but he doesn't have any holes in his game. He can score in any way possible, he can defend guards and bigs because he has good movement and quick hands, and he's an outstanding passer.

Since he doesn't do anything super well I don't see him as going on to be a max player/HOFer but I can definitely see him as being a solid #2 that any team could use.

I 100% thought he was a solid starter and glue guy type player. Not a 1st or 2nd option on a team. But he's scoring at a clip in just his 2nd NBA month that makes it clear he does have all-star potential. He might end up being a better version of Jerami Grant. The one thing right now that looks like a weakness still is rebounding for his size and height but once he brings more of a focus to that area he'll be even better.

[Manocad]

I think the issue with being surprised by Wagner's draft position (he was called a reach by a LOT of people) and current performance is recency bias. If you're not a Michigan fan you probably only saw him play in the tournament and while Michigan had a pretty good tournament run, Wagner had some pretty ugly performances. But anyone who's a big Michigan fan and watched him play for two years at Michigan can tell you that while he rarely put up eye-popping stats, there isn't anything he doesn't do well. Maybe not super well and maybe not all the time, but he doesn't have any holes in his game. He can score in any way possible, he can defend guards and bigs because he has good movement and quick hands, and he's an outstanding passer.

Since he doesn't do anything super well I don't see him as going on to be a max player/HOFer but I can definitely see him as being a solid #2 that any team could use.

I 100% thought he was a solid starter and glue guy type player. Not a 1st or 2nd option on a team. But he's scoring at a clip in just his 2nd NBA month that makes it clear he does have all-star potential. He might end up being a better version of Jerami Grant. The one thing right now that looks like a weakness still is rebounding for his size and height but once he brings more of a focus to that area he'll be even better.

He won't ever be a fearsome rebounder because that's just not his game, plus he's playing a SG/SF role for the Magic with Wendell Carter pulling down 10.3 a game at center. So I'm not terribly surprised at 4.6 RPG for him. Put him on the Pistons in a SF/PF role next to Bey and Cade and he'd probably bump up a couple boards a game pretty quickly.

[Piston Pete]

I think it’s time to start Lee and bring Hayes off the bench.

I really think Lee is the better overall prospect at this point. He has a much better feel for the game and isn’t such a negative on the offensive side.

And Hayes might feel less pressure coming off the bench - he may actually blossom in that role.

[Moses ShamMoses]

I think it’s time to start Lee and bring Hayes off the bench.

I really think Lee is the better overall prospect at this point. He has a much better feel for the game and isn’t such a negative on the offensive side.

And Hayes might feel less pressure coming off the bench - he may actually blossom in that role.

We really need Killian to be more aggressive with his offense. I read somewhere that Casey wanted him to focus on defense and running the offense. I think those were fine goals earlier in the year, but we need more out of our #7 pick last year. I'd like to see him drive to the hoop more looking to score, not just dish.

[Manocad]

I think it’s time to start Lee and bring Hayes off the bench.

I really think Lee is the better overall prospect at this point. He has a much better feel for the game and isn’t such a negative on the offensive side.

And Hayes might feel less pressure coming off the bench - he may actually blossom in that role.

I really hope Saben Lee works out. He's athletic and showed in the G-league that he's capable of scoring. But I don't get the sense from watching him play AT ALL that he has a better feel for the game than Hayes, especially from a PG standpoint. In fact I think he looks worse now than he did before in that regard.

As far as Hayes being a negative on the offensive end, he's averaging 6.4 PPG on 34.9%/31.1% with 3.7 APG in 25.8 MP. Lee is averaging 5.8 PPG on 40.0%/22.2% and 2.4 APG in 15.6 MP. If you extrapolate Lee's numbers to 25.8 MP you'd get 9.6 PPG and 4.0 APG. Sure, it's a little better than Hayes if you believe his numbers will extrapolate, but I'm not sure what you're referring to as Hayes being a "such a negative on the offensive side." I just rolled through the box scores of the last 10 or so games they've both played and Hayes has a better +/- every time, and by more than an average of 3.2 PPG. And ultimately that's the player's impact on the game. I'm not going to look it up but Ben Wallace, while scoring 7 or so PPG probably had a monstrous +/-. That's of course an extreme example because he was such a defensive beast, but my guess is that's why Killian's +/- has been better than Lee's--his defensive impact compared to Lee outweighs his comparative deficiency of offensive impact.

It's been mentioned by other posters that the players playing the way they do ultimately falls under the coach's direction. Killian would only do more offensively coming off the bench if Casey told him he needed to try to score more in that role. People like to criticize the players a lot for not using their skills most effectively sometimes, or being a ball hog/black hole on offense, etc. But don't think for a minute that the coach is just standing by saying, "Well ok, if that's how you want to play I guess I'll just let you play that way." No effing way. Not on this team and not on any team ever. You do what the coach tells you to do or you don't play, period. I guarantee if you asked Luka Garza if he wanted to only set a pick and roll to the 3 point line, or pick and roll to the hoop/post a guy up, he'd want the latter.

As I've posted previously I firmly believe Cade and this offense are best suited with a good facilitator in the PG role rather than a scorer. And Saben Lee is NOT a better facilitating PG than Hayes. Not right now, anyway. He's certainly better at driving and drawing defenders but when he does he's looking to score, not dish.