Game 37: Pistons (7-29) @ Grizzlies (25-14) - Jan. 6 8:00 PM EST

[NYPiston]

The Pistons put four years into Stanley Johnson. Hayes has now played 53 games. Might want to pump the brakes on that comparison a little. Maybe the Pistons draft Ivey, Hayes deservedly moves straight to the bench, and if he doesn't produce he either finishes out his contract or gets cut/traded. Should that happen all this hand-wringing will rightfully go directly into the Chicken Little file.

I get that people may not like Hayes and would rather see him go to the bench because they're just sick of seeing him start and not play at the level of an average starting PG after 53 games. But be honest and just say "I don't want to see him play. I'd rather see Lee, Walton or whomever because I like their game better." Any argument that the team is making some horrendous mistake with Hayes, other players on the team, or the team's future by continuing to start Hayes after FIFTY THREE WHOLE GAMES, given where the team is at right now, can easily be challenged. And literally as easily as just saying "Weaver and Casey have a better history of coaching/developing an NBA team than you do." Which is 100% correct and indisputable.

I actually put forth a legit argument for moving him to the bench for a while if you took the time to read it. It's not just because "I don't want to see Hayes start" although that is quite a painful exercise currently, it's to repair his broken confidence by playing him against other bench players.

Sometimes you see this in hockey when they send a player down to the minor leagues, they gain confidence by playing against lesser competition then are in a more confident state of mind when they come back up to the NHL. I don't know if you know much about hockey but there's a player Leon Draisaitl who was drafted 4th, was rushed into the NHL as a rookie and played horribly, was sent down to the AHL for a time then when he came back he flourished and is now one of the best players in the league. Hayes doesn't have near the talent level that Draisaitl does but the point still stands. There's plenty of other examples too.

Also, just to add, I'm not insinuating that he should be doomed to the bench forever but I don't see anything wrong with trying it for several games just to see how it works because I'm telling you, his confidence is being shattered by playing in a role that he's ill equipped to handle and I don't think throwing him to the wolves time and time again is the answer right now.

[Billl]

Back-to-backs are tough to get up for, but not as much after you no-show the night before. They should be more competitive tonight.

It would be hard to be less competitive than a 29 point loss.

Thought I was safe taking the over on a 29 point loss, but our pistons managed to toss out a 30.

[440BB]

I think that Hayes is being given the benefit of the doubt a bit more because Weaver and Casey know they were wrong to throw him into the fire totally unprepared. Under normal circumstances, his age, inexperience and lack of a useful preseason would have put him in a backup role to start out, regardless of draft position.

He clearly wasn't ready and that may still be contributing to his lapses in confidence. The defense, vision and passing are good, and the offensive confidence may settle in with more repetitions. They'll likely start him all of this season to find out.

[Manocad]

The Pistons put four years into Stanley Johnson. Hayes has now played 53 games. Might want to pump the brakes on that comparison a little. Maybe the Pistons draft Ivey, Hayes deservedly moves straight to the bench, and if he doesn't produce he either finishes out his contract or gets cut/traded. Should that happen all this hand-wringing will rightfully go directly into the Chicken Little file.

I get that people may not like Hayes and would rather see him go to the bench because they're just sick of seeing him start and not play at the level of an average starting PG after 53 games. But be honest and just say "I don't want to see him play. I'd rather see Lee, Walton or whomever because I like their game better." Any argument that the team is making some horrendous mistake with Hayes, other players on the team, or the team's future by continuing to start Hayes after FIFTY THREE WHOLE GAMES, given where the team is at right now, can easily be challenged. And literally as easily as just saying "Weaver and Casey have a better history of coaching/developing an NBA team than you do." Which is 100% correct and indisputable.

I actually put forth a legit argument for moving him to the bench for a while if you took the time to read it. It's not just because "I don't want to see Hayes start" although that is quite a painful exercise currently, it's to repair his broken confidence by playing him against other bench players.

Sometimes you see this in hockey when they send a player down to the minor leagues, they gain confidence by playing against lesser competition then are in a more confident state of mind when they come back up to the NHL. I don't know if you know much about hockey but there's a player Leon Draisaitl who was drafted 4th, was rushed into the NHL as a rookie and played horribly, was sent down to the AHL for a time then when he came back he flourished and is now one of the best players in the league. Hayes doesn't have near the talent level that Draisaitl does but the point still stands. There's plenty of other examples too.

Also, just to add, I'm not insinuating that he should be doomed to the bench forever but I don't see anything wrong with trying it for several games just to see how it works because I'm telling you, his confidence is being shattered by playing in a role that he's ill equipped to handle and I don't think throwing him to the wolves time and time again is the answer right now.

I did read it and I responded directly to it, which apparently you didn't take the time to read. I said I personally don't disregard sending Hayes to the bench as a possible solution; I'm only addressing the idea that continuing to let him start is NOT the solution to him improving or is harmful to him, other players, or the team long term. And that's the claim being made--that Casey/Weaver are dumb/making a colossal mistake by continuing to start Hayes.

[Manocad]

Saben lee has objectively been better than Hayes and is also a young guy developing. Idk how someone can argue against him starting over Hayes at this point other than just blind favoritism or not want to admit their wrong.



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Saben Lee is a better scorer than Hayes, period. He does nothing else better than Hayes as a PG. Any claim to the contrary is blind favoritism/bias coming from someone who clearly isn't watching the games. Saben Lee has been a HORRIBLE PG outside of the scoring.

[bstein14]

Hayes is still really young and has the chance to develop into something more than a bust that's out of the league after his rookie contract is up, BUT right now he is on track for a Stanley Johnson type situation where he is going to be lucky to get a minimum salary deal once his contract is up. Stanley Johnson is a player we put too much time into trying to develop into something.... gave him too many minutes... and he never got anywhere. I'm still hopeful Hayes develops into at least an average (or slightly below average) backup PG. For me at this point with him, its a win after putting in all this work if he's an average backup PG and a rotation player for us in years 3/4. He still has a ton of work to get to that point. His rookie season he had a PER of 5, this season he has a PER of 8.6... next year hopefully he can hit 12 and maybe 13 or 14 the year after being a slightly below average player would be great.

The Pistons put four years into Stanley Johnson. Hayes has now played 53 games. Might want to pump the brakes on that comparison a little. Maybe the Pistons draft Ivey, Hayes deservedly moves straight to the bench, and if he doesn't produce he either finishes out his contract or gets cut/traded. Should that happen all this hand-wringing will rightfully go directly into the Chicken Little file.

I get that people may not like Hayes and would rather see him go to the bench because they're just sick of seeing him start and not play at the level of an average starting PG after 53 games. But be honest and just say "I don't want to see him play. I'd rather see Lee, Walton or whomever because I like their game better." Any argument that the team is making some horrendous mistake with Hayes, other players on the team, or the team's future by continuing to start Hayes after FIFTY THREE WHOLE GAMES, given where the team is at right now, can easily be challenged. And literally as easily as just saying "Weaver and Casey have a better history of coaching/developing an NBA team than you do." Which is 100% correct and indisputable.

In a few months (April) it will be two years with Killian. The comparison to Stanley is pretty spot on thus far... solid defender with "NBA ready" body but no real scoring ability. It becomes more relevant if we play Killian for another year and a half and then move on from him like we did Stanley.

I think it's a pretty safe bet, that unless Killian takes a pretty decent step forward over this offseason, he will have a reduced role next year. We're adding another top 5 pick plus we have max capspace so both Killian and Stewart are likely to fall out of the starting lineup unless they really have some big strides forward.

Ownership/coaching staff also aren't going to be fine with being awful again next year. This year has been another developmental year where playing the young guys is taking precedent over getting as many wins as possible but next year if we're trying to win Killian might not even be in the rotation. That's just the truth of the matter. Frank Jackson, Diallo, Cade and a new draft pick or FA might get all the minutes... or Lee or someone else could very well push him out of the rotation if we're trying to put the best team out there to win games.

That doesn't mean he still can't develop into a decent NBA player eventually... he will be just 21 next year still he's as young as Cade.... it just means that he might not do it with us. He has shown progress as a player but he came into the league "two years away from being two years away".

[Manocad]

Hayes is still really young and has the chance to develop into something more than a bust that's out of the league after his rookie contract is up, BUT right now he is on track for a Stanley Johnson type situation where he is going to be lucky to get a minimum salary deal once his contract is up. Stanley Johnson is a player we put too much time into trying to develop into something.... gave him too many minutes... and he never got anywhere. I'm still hopeful Hayes develops into at least an average (or slightly below average) backup PG. For me at this point with him, its a win after putting in all this work if he's an average backup PG and a rotation player for us in years 3/4. He still has a ton of work to get to that point. His rookie season he had a PER of 5, this season he has a PER of 8.6... next year hopefully he can hit 12 and maybe 13 or 14 the year after being a slightly below average player would be great.

The Pistons put four years into Stanley Johnson. Hayes has now played 53 games. Might want to pump the brakes on that comparison a little. Maybe the Pistons draft Ivey, Hayes deservedly moves straight to the bench, and if he doesn't produce he either finishes out his contract or gets cut/traded. Should that happen all this hand-wringing will rightfully go directly into the Chicken Little file.

I get that people may not like Hayes and would rather see him go to the bench because they're just sick of seeing him start and not play at the level of an average starting PG after 53 games. But be honest and just say "I don't want to see him play. I'd rather see Lee, Walton or whomever because I like their game better." Any argument that the team is making some horrendous mistake with Hayes, other players on the team, or the team's future by continuing to start Hayes after FIFTY THREE WHOLE GAMES, given where the team is at right now, can easily be challenged. And literally as easily as just saying "Weaver and Casey have a better history of coaching/developing an NBA team than you do." Which is 100% correct and indisputable.

In a few months (April) it will be two years with Killian. The comparison to Stanley is pretty spot on thus far... solid defender with "NBA ready" body but no real scoring ability. It becomes more relevant if we play Killian for another year and a half and then move on from him like we did Stanley.

I think it's a pretty safe bet, that unless Killian takes a pretty decent step forward over this offseason, he will have a reduced role next year. We're adding another top 5 pick plus we have max capspace so both Killian and Stewart are likely to fall out of the starting lineup unless they really have some big strides forward.

Ownership/coaching staff also aren't going to be fine with being awful again next year. This year has been another developmental year where playing the young guys is taking precedent over getting as many wins as possible but next year if we're trying to win Killian might not even be in the rotation. That's just the truth of the matter. Frank Jackson, Diallo, Cade and a new draft pick or FA might get all the minutes... or Lee or someone else could very well push him out of the rotation if we're trying to put the best team out there to win games.

That doesn't mean he still can't develop into a decent NBA player eventually... he will be just 21 next year still he's as young as Cade.... it just means that he might not do it with us. He has shown progress as a player but he came into the league "two years away from being two years away".

This isn't April. And the fact remains that the Pistons put four full seasons into Stanley while Killian has played 53 games. The comparison is relevant only in physical attributes and performance, not timing. Yes, for sure it becomes relevant in a year and a half...in a year and a half. And like I said, after this season the Pistons could draft Ivey, send Killian to the bench or cut him loose, and all of this becomes moot. The only reason it's being discussed with this kind of fervor is people complaining that something needs to happen NOW. But there's a big difference between 53 games and four full seasons.

[mattao313]

Saben lee has objectively been better than Hayes and is also a young guy developing. Idk how someone can argue against him starting over Hayes at this point other than just blind favoritism or not want to admit their wrong.



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Saben Lee is a better scorer than Hayes, period. He does nothing else better than Hayes as a PG. Any claim to the contrary is blind favoritism/bias coming from someone who clearly isn't watching the games. Saben Lee has been a HORRIBLE PG outside of the scoring.

Pretty much every stat says lee is better also on court when he actually gets a decent amount of minutes he shows he can actually affect the game in a positive way. Hayes is consistently a bad player.

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[Manocad]

Saben lee has objectively been better than Hayes and is also a young guy developing. Idk how someone can argue against him starting over Hayes at this point other than just blind favoritism or not want to admit their wrong.



Sent from my 5087Z using RealGM mobile app

Saben Lee is a better scorer than Hayes, period. He does nothing else better than Hayes as a PG. Any claim to the contrary is blind favoritism/bias coming from someone who clearly isn't watching the games. Saben Lee has been a HORRIBLE PG outside of the scoring.

Pretty much every stat says lee is better also on court when he actually gets a decent amount of minutes he shows he can actually affect the game in a positive way. Hayes is consistently a bad player.

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Wrong. Look up their +/- ratings in the last ten games they've played together and get back to me. Lee is consistently bad at everything a PG does EXCEPT score. He can't make the right pass for beans if he even looks to pass, he can't rebound and his defense is terrible.

Now, that being said, I like Lee and hope he turns into something; I'm not suggesting he can never be a decent NBA PG. That's the difference between my perspective and some others here.

[DBC10]

The Pistons put four years into Stanley Johnson. Hayes has now played 53 games. Might want to pump the brakes on that comparison a little. Maybe the Pistons draft Ivey, Hayes deservedly moves straight to the bench, and if he doesn't produce he either finishes out his contract or gets cut/traded. Should that happen all this hand-wringing will rightfully go directly into the Chicken Little file.

I get that people may not like Hayes and would rather see him go to the bench because they're just sick of seeing him start and not play at the level of an average starting PG after 53 games. But be honest and just say "I don't want to see him play. I'd rather see Lee, Walton or whomever because I like their game better." Any argument that the team is making some horrendous mistake with Hayes, other players on the team, or the team's future by continuing to start Hayes after FIFTY THREE WHOLE GAMES, given where the team is at right now, can easily be challenged. And literally as easily as just saying "Weaver and Casey have a better history of coaching/developing an NBA team than you do." Which is 100% correct and indisputable.

In a few months (April) it will be two years with Killian. The comparison to Stanley is pretty spot on thus far... solid defender with "NBA ready" body but no real scoring ability. It becomes more relevant if we play Killian for another year and a half and then move on from him like we did Stanley.

.

SJ at this point in his first 60 games showed more flashes than Hayes. That was with him not even starting on a fringe playoff team trying to win as many as possible in 2015 (aka less opportunities). At least SJ's cockiness was apparent with him guarding Lebron and trying to get in his head in the playoffs. 2016 is when he was infamously in the dog house for not getting along with SVG where it all went to the wayside. This is why having a coaching staff that knows how to properly empower players to overperform is crucial, which is TBA with our current staff right now

I think it's a pretty safe bet, that unless Killian takes a pretty decent step forward over this offseason, he will have a reduced role next year. We're adding another top 5 pick plus we have max capspace so both Killian and Stewart are likely to fall out of the starting lineup unless they really have some big strides forward.

Stewart for sure if we continue to have less than stellar interior presence issues like we have been having any time Stewart has been starting. Having Stewart off the bench would make for a nice bench unit with Lee as a fringe sixth man

Ownership/coaching staff also aren't going to be fine with being awful again next year. This year has been another developmental year where playing the young guys is taking precedent over getting as many wins as possible but next year if we're trying to win Killian might not even be in the rotation. That's just the truth of the matter. Frank Jackson, Diallo, Cade and a new draft pick or FA might get all the minutes... or Lee or someone else could very well push him out of the rotation if we're trying to put the best team out there to win games.

Agreed. It's a very likely possibility when all said and done. Weaver didn't come here to just be bad for his first 4 years, and we're running up to year 3 now

That doesn't mean he still can't develop into a decent NBA player eventually... he will be just 21 next year still he's as young as Cade.... it just means that he might not do it with us. He has shown progress as a player but he came into the league "two years away from being two years away"

If Hayes doesn't progress with us, he can safely fall back into the pile of all of our forgotten assets with the likes of SJ, Ellenson, Sekou, etc etc. Which you hope isn't the case but it's not anything worth writing about so far

[NYPiston]

I did read it and I responded directly to it, which apparently you didn't take the time to read. I said I personally don't disregard sending Hayes to the bench as a possible solution; I'm only addressing the idea that continuing to let him start is NOT the solution to him improving or is harmful to him, other players, or the team long term. And that's the claim being made--that Casey/Weaver are dumb/making a colossal mistake by continuing to start Hayes.

Right now, I don't think the solution is to keep starting him. I see a player that is struggling with the assignment of playing against the best players on the other team and he's sinking as a result. If there was something, anything, in his game that he was doing at a remotely high level that he can hang his hat on then I can understand the rationale of throwing him out there to work on the aspects of his game that aren't working but in this instance, there's nothing he's doing that he can hang his hat on. He's basically out there taking up space pretty much to the point that the team is playing 4 on 5 most of the time and that 3 point shot that was working reasonably well early in the season has completely cratered recently.

I don't know what the solution is or if this is what Hayes really is but doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results seems pretty foolish as we are now almost at the halfway point in this season. Maybe try something different with him, put him in a different role for a period of time then maybe he can find his niche or, as I said before, gain back enough confidence so he can handle the harder minutes when he's ready. What we're watching now with him clearly isn't working, do you disagree with that?

[Billl]

It's pretty clear that Hayes isn't ready to be an NBA starter. What other option do we have at this point though? Cojo? Lee? Cojo would likely do a better job, but he's not a good player and obviously not part of the future. And putting him back in the rotation just seems counterproductive. So lee? He's been really bad. Worse than Hayes most nights.

Or maybe you run Cade as the PG and then what? It's not like we have other starting caliber wing players we've been hiding. You are just moving another non-starter into the starting lineup. If grant isn't traded, maybe you look at sliding everyone down a position when he comes back, but our options right now are quite limited.

[bstein14]

It's pretty clear that Hayes isn't ready to be an NBA starter. What other option do we have at this point though? Cojo? Lee? Cojo would likely do a better job, but he's not a good player and obviously not part of the future. And putting him back in the rotation just seems counterproductive. So lee? He's been really bad. Worse than Hayes most nights.

Or maybe you run Cade as the PG and then what? It's not like we have other starting caliber wing players we've been hiding. You are just moving another non-starter into the starting lineup. If grant isn't traded, maybe you look at sliding everyone down a position when he comes back, but our options right now are quite limited.

Once Kelly O comes back, the lineup that would make the most sense out there would be.

Stewart / Garza
Kelly O / Lyles
Bey / Josh Jackson
Diallo / Frank Jackson
Cade / Hayes

Of course this won't happen, and we'll end up losing Garza out of the rotation but I think Garza has earned some playing time on a nightly basis probably more than Hayes or Lee to be honest. Hayes and Frank Jackson pair well together in the backcourt because Frank is a smaller SG so Hayes' height will help the 2nd unit backcourt. This lineup also gives Hayes 4 shooters (assuming Josh Jackson can shoot decently again so it could help to open up his penetration to the basket.

I think overall having Hayes and Stewart play together isn't ideal for us at this moment for our offense. If we don't push Hayes to the bench we should consider putting Stewart there and starting Garza or Olynyk.

I'd prefer to see Cade with Bey, Olynyk and Diallo for sure.... and one of Hayes/Stewart both not both.

[whitehops]

in hayes' defense, CoJo and lee are both pretty painful to watch with the starters too and imo none of them are necessarily close to being starting calibre at the moment.

there's a reason why cade is pretty much in full PG mode these days and honestly i think it's our best bet of having good PG play.

[Manocad]

I did read it and I responded directly to it, which apparently you didn't take the time to read. I said I personally don't disregard sending Hayes to the bench as a possible solution; I'm only addressing the idea that continuing to let him start is NOT the solution to him improving or is harmful to him, other players, or the team long term. And that's the claim being made--that Casey/Weaver are dumb/making a colossal mistake by continuing to start Hayes.

Right now, I don't think the solution is to keep starting him. I see a player that is struggling with the assignment of playing against the best players on the other team and he's sinking as a result. If there was something, anything, in his game that he was doing at a remotely high level that he can hang his hat on then I can understand the rationale of throwing him out there to work on the aspects of his game that aren't working but in this instance, there's nothing he's doing that he can hang his hat on. He's basically out there taking up space pretty much to the point that the team is playing 4 on 5 most of the time and that 3 point shot that was working reasonably well early in the season has completely cratered recently.

I don't know what the solution is or if this is what Hayes really is but doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results seems pretty foolish as we are now almost at the halfway point in this season. Maybe try something different with him, put him in a different role for a period of time then maybe he can find his niche or, as I said before, gain back enough confidence so he can handle the harder minutes when he's ready. What we're watching now with him clearly isn't working, do you disagree with that?

Yep, I do. I don’t think Hayes’ issues have anything to do who he’s playing with, against, or his expected role. I think they’re a function of just time to develop and have always said that. I don’t think 53 games is the proper sample size to determine that there are problems, just a need to improve which I think requires more time. Had he not been injured he’d be just past the halfway point of his rookie season.

[zeebneeb]

Worst team in Pistons history? Check. Still arguing about a player who has 50 some odd games under his belt? Check. No viable alternative? Check.

Nothing matters until the offseason, when the draft is done, trades happen, and free agents signed. It's not like there is some gem rotting on the bench on a 50 win team struggling to get minutes here.

Who gives a crap if Hayes starts the rest of the season. He either improves, or he doesn't. It won't change anything this year.

Good grief.

[Manocad]

Who gives a crap if Hayes starts the rest of the season. He either improves, or he doesn't. It won't change anything this year.

Good grief.

Bingo

[Piston Pete]

I’d like to see this lineup a lot more:

PG - Lee
SG - Cade
SF - Diallo
PF - Bey
C - Stewart

Or even

PG - Cade
SG - Diallo
SF - Bey
PF - Grant (when healthy)
C - Stewart