Why is the offense so mediocre?

[pr0wler]

Nets ranked 13th in offensive rating this season, compared to #1 last year. That's a bit of a dropoff.

Sure, basically no Kyrie thus far. Harden got off to a slow start. And Joe Harris is injured. But other teams have also had many players out for a while and this season has had its share of absences all around. Either way, I feel like given the Nets roster, they should have better than basically a league average offense.

I'm definitely not an expert, but I have watched probably 1,000+ games of the James Harden led Rockets. His ruthless pursuit of running efficient offense synergized prefectly with Moreyball and the D'antoni system. The Rockets focused exclusively on 3's, layups, and FT's...and basically had a #1 offense 3 straight seasons. Yes, in a league that featured the most talented team of all-time with the Prime KD + Warriors. Now I feel like that concept has been largely thrown out the window this year.

I frequently see the first option down the court being Durant shooting a mid-ranger. Is this a horrible option? No, of course not. But 17 foot jumper, whether open or not, is almost never a better option than an open 3-pointer. And he's averaging an efficient 30PPG, but his efficiency definitely not quite what it was. And in my view, it's his shot selection that is diminishing his efficiency slightly.

Harden hasn't been hitting his 3's quite like before yet, and has had trouble finishing around the rim. But he's still being disciplined in terms of shot selection and isn't forcing mid-rangers like I see so often on this team. He draws a bunch of trouble teams and traps, and we seemingly have no great answer to counter them. I get that adding Kyrie will help, but if we have to rely on 3 superstars being in the lineup at the same time, I feel like we are missing something.

As I am now a Nets fan who has seen almost every game since the Harden trade, I feel like the system on offense leaves a lot to be desired.

[GYK]

It’s definitely not because of Harden or Durant, if you’re a Harden fan you would’ve have loved Durant on the Rockets for his portability.

We just got rid of our shooting. Harden was essentially responsible for even last years offense with Durant or Kyrie in and out. Jeff/Shamet/Joe/Tyler/Blake we’re all shooting extremely well for us. Harden ran a great show of mostly pick and pops with a slip from Bruce or Jeff.

We have a personnel issue. It was good to bring in defenders but their lack of spacing absolutely hurts our offense, especially when we have to play multiple guys.

[MrDollarBills]

Nets ranked 13th in offensive rating this season, compared to #1 last year. That's a bit of a dropoff.

Sure, basically no Kyrie thus far. Harden got off to a slow start. And Joe Harris is injured. But other teams have also had many players out for a while and this season has had its share of absences all around. Either way, I feel like given the Nets roster, they should have better than basically a league average offense.

I'm definitely not an expert, but I have watched probably 1,000+ games of the James Harden led Rockets. His ruthless pursuit of running efficient offense synergized prefectly with Moreyball and the D'antoni system. The Rockets focused exclusively on 3's, layups, and FT's...and basically had a #1 offense 3 straight seasons. Yes, in a league that featured the most talented team of all-time with the Prime KD + Warriors. Now I feel like that concept has been largely thrown out the window this year.

I frequently see the first option down the court being Durant shooting a mid-ranger. Is this a horrible option? No, of course not. But 17 foot jumper, whether open or not, is almost never a better option than an open 3-pointer. And he's averaging an efficient 30PPG, but his efficiency definitely not quite what it was. And in my view, it's his shot selection that is diminishing his efficiency slightly.

Harden hasn't been hitting his 3's quite like before yet, and has had trouble finishing around the rim. But he's still being disciplined in terms of shot selection and isn't forcing mid-rangers like I see so often on this team. He draws a bunch of trouble teams and traps, and we seemingly have no great answer to counter them. I get that adding Kyrie will help, but if we have to rely on 3 superstars being in the lineup at the same time, I feel like we are missing something.

As I am now a Nets fan who has seen almost every game since the Harden trade, I feel like the system on offense leaves a lot to be desired.

Lack of shooting to space the floor is hurting Harden a lot, but the Nets offense itself is a dumpster fire because Steve Nash doesn't know what he's doing.

There is zero movement off ball, aside from the center coming to set a screen. It's either Harden driving into 3 defenders or KD taking a contested midrange shot.

It's very easy to defend. We don't hunt for mismatches, run backdoor plays for a cut to the basket, nothing.

[pr0wler]

Yeah the Rockets were maybe the best at all time at relentlessly hunting down bad defenders. All I see with Nash as the coach is a token screen to maybe get a switch and that's it.

Then the Durant contested mid range jumper shtick and that's about it lol. Not exactly award winning offensive scheme. I miss D'antoni.

[Prokorov]

1) No Kyrie til this point
2) God awful coaching with no offensive system that puts players in the worst position to succeed

[HardenGoat]

Yeah the Rockets were maybe the best at all time at relentlessly hunting down bad defenders. All I see with Nash as the coach is a token screen to maybe get a switch and that's it.

Then the Durant contested mid range jumper shtick and that's about it lol. Not exactly award winning offensive scheme. I miss D'antoni.

On the Rockets we had 2 rolling bigs in Nene and Capela that had great hands. We also had solid shooters that kept the paint open. It started crumbling when we lost Capela and added the non shooter Westbrook. Last year we had better shooting with Kyrie and Harris who played the entire season and was nailing them. Look at the 3 point percentage of our shooters this year. It’s terrible. Plus Mills taking a cold streak has really hurt us. It means Harden gets no spacing so he has completely changed his approach. Adding Kyrie and Harris will fix it but we really need to dump a couple players to get another shooter. Mills can then resume his backup role and I doubt his cold streak continues anyways. Claxton is becoming the rolling big we need under that context. Rockets ball worked but having 3 iso scorers at this level along with the shooting and spacing fixed will be unstoppable in the playoffs. We don’t need Harden to be the Rockets version. He will excel again when the spacing is fixed. The biggest concern is Kyries vaccination status.

[MGrand15]

A bunch of factors:

Harden hasn't been the same guy that ran the Rocket offenses for years. He's at a career low in 3pt% with less attempts per game than he's taken since 2014. His efficiency is at a career low outside of his rookie year - with the fewest FG attempts since he left OKC.I think it's pretty clear he hasn't been a guy that defenses fear. He isn't top 15 in scoring - which is insane when you consider Kyrie is out, his heavy minutes, and that this guy averaged 34 ppg 2 years ago.

Whether you want to blame roster construction or the coaching, the spacing has been god awful this year. Last year, we never played more than 1 non-shooter at a time. With Jeff Green, we actually went 5 out with Harden essentially being the worst shooter on the floor. The coaches actually went out of their way to stagger Brown and Claxton since they were the only non-shooters in the rotation. This year - Blake completely lost his jump shot. And we started regularly playing 2 to 3 non-shooters at once. You're just not gonna score efficiently no matter what schemes you draw up or how good KD is or how you try to manage shot selection. Not in the long term.

All of these were issues before Joe Harris got hurt (Nash was playing 2 centers at the same time regularly) but obviously losing him and Kyrie completely changes the dynamic of the team. We saw a glimpse of it in Indiana when Kyrie + Mills + Harden + KD played together. The paint was wide open for once and life was easy. We scored 130 without hitting our 3s. Now we're at the point where the only proven shooters in the rotation are KD + Mills. Harden too but he doesn't like taking spot up 3s and he's at 32%. .

[MGrand15]

Also KD would be WAY more efficient if he had spacing around him and a good offense. Right now, he's scoring 30 on double + triple teams with the paint packed. If the space was there, he'd be getting way more layups + dunks + not be forced to take tough shots. KD is at a career high in FGA per game. This isn't the type of ball he wants to play. He just doesn't have a choice.

[NetsWorld]

Yeah the Rockets were maybe the best at all time at relentlessly hunting down bad defenders. All I see with Nash as the coach is a token screen to maybe get a switch and that's it.

Then the Durant contested mid range jumper shtick and that's about it lol. Not exactly award winning offensive scheme. I miss D'antoni.

On the Rockets we had 2 rolling bigs in Nene and Capela that had great hands. We also had solid shooters that kept the paint open. It started crumbling when we lost Capela and added the non shooter Westbrook. Last year we had better shooting with Kyrie and Harris who played the entire season and was nailing them. Look at the 3 point percentage of our shooters this year. It’s terrible. Plus Mills taking a cold streak has really hurt us. It means Harden gets no spacing so he has completely changed his approach. Adding Kyrie and Harris will fix it but we really need to dump a couple players to get another shooter. Mills can then resume his backup role and I doubt his cold streak continues anyways. Claxton is becoming the rolling big we need under that context. Rockets ball worked but having 3 iso scorers at this level along with the shooting and spacing fixed will be unstoppable in the playoffs. We don’t need Harden to be the Rockets version. He will excel again when the spacing is fixed. The biggest concern is Kyries vaccination status.

I agree about the Kyrie part and your assessment about the Rockets was spot on. Nets were running Rockets sets last year thanks to Mikey. The problem is gonna be at home with no Kyrie. Kyrie’s 26 PPG sends this offense into Supernova mode. Easily from 110 PPg to 137 PPG. But one player cannot throw off the entire team playing like trash against G league players. It’s not the talent, it’s the lack of a system. I really liked that we played the young guys. Edwards, Duke, Cam and Sharpe sparked our energy. Imagine playing them stretches where the whole team is full, we’d annihilate teams. I picked the Bucks due to continuity but this will all depend on two factors, Harden’s play and Kyrie’s availability.

[HardenGoat]

I wish we could somehow get Eric Gordon he’s shooting 45 percent from 3, fits the system and can make his own shot. He’s a solid defender and plays even better when games really matter.

[gigantes]

There's a nice post here that focuses in on our lack of corner 3pt shooting in particular.

I've been doing a ton of deep dives into some of our problems. I made this post yesterday breaking down our offensive woes in last night's game. (https://www.reddit.com/r/GoNets/comments/ryqzab/using_tonight_to_showcase_where_and_why_our/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

And then for r/nba I made a similar post a little more focused on Harden. (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/rytgs0/the_nets_offense_and_hardens_struggles/)

But the more I dive into this, the more I realize how much of our problems are centered on our corner 3s just being non existent. I'm going to copy paste our corner three shot chart for our currently available players from one of those threads here:

* Mills is 30 of 80 from the corner which is respectable
* Bruce Brown at 8 of 23
* Blake Griffin at 6 of 26
* and then Jevon Carter at 5 of 19.

Without Harris, who was shooting 61% from the corner (!!!), our highest volume corner three guys include Bruce Brown, Blake Griffin, and Jevon **** Carter. There are obviously two corners, which means if Mills isn't at either of them, we have two non shooting threats parked there. [These are our accuracy rankings from the corner. Note that small sample sizes are not ranked](https://imgur.com/80yCy04). That is a [huge contrast to last year](https://imgur.com/dkq1K2U) when we had all these guys capable from the corner and from 3.

[This is a chart of the leagues highest volume corner three teams](https://imgur.com/nqt0cRG)

[This is a chart of the leagues most accurate corner three teams](https://imgur.com/tlGo5Uf)

**We are ranked 19th for volume and 25th for accuracy from the corner.**

We are technically ahead of Golden State in accuracy, but their volume is so much higher than ours that it is still a positive shot for them for multiple reasons, including that it spaces the floor allowing them to be a top 2 rim finishing team regards to accuracy and top 10 in volume.

**We are 23rd in volume and 20th in accuracy at the rim because the paint is so clogged against us.**

I want to compare this to two things:

I want to compare those rankings to [last year](https://imgur.com/iL41DnZ), where we were *11th in rim accuracy, 2nd in all midrange, 9th in the corner, and 2 for overall threes.*

And I want to compare that to [the seven years Harden was on the Rockets](https://imgur.com/1WFbTuu).

It is not a coincidence that when the corner three fails, both Harden and our pick and roll suffers. We cannot run a sufficient modern offense when we have our corners being taken up by guys that won't shoot and they won't cut. It legitimately just seems like the corner is being used to place the guys the team wants to make run the furthest to get back on defense rather than using it as an actual floor spacing threat. And since they aren't frequently cutting backdoor either, it's just removing one of the most effective ways to space the floor for a spread pick and roll and turning it into a negative shot for us.


This is not just a "we need to hit more corner threes!!" problem. It's a schematic flaw in our offense. We are ruining our pick and roll game because we are not shooting corner threes, and the corner - which is one of the most effective 3pt shots in the NBA - is being used as a filler spot to hide guys on offense rather than as the floor spacing threat it should be.

[MrDollarBills]

There's a nice post here that focuses in on our lack of corner 3pt shooting in particular.

I've been doing a ton of deep dives into some of our problems. I made this post yesterday breaking down our offensive woes in last night's game. (https://www.reddit.com/r/GoNets/comments/ryqzab/using_tonight_to_showcase_where_and_why_our/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web2x&context=3)

And then for r/nba I made a similar post a little more focused on Harden. (https://www.reddit.com/r/nba/comments/rytgs0/the_nets_offense_and_hardens_struggles/)

But the more I dive into this, the more I realize how much of our problems are centered on our corner 3s just being non existent. I'm going to copy paste our corner three shot chart for our currently available players from one of those threads here:

* Mills is 30 of 80 from the corner which is respectable
* Bruce Brown at 8 of 23
* Blake Griffin at 6 of 26
* and then Jevon Carter at 5 of 19.

Without Harris, who was shooting 61% from the corner (!!!), our highest volume corner three guys include Bruce Brown, Blake Griffin, and Jevon **** Carter. There are obviously two corners, which means if Mills isn't at either of them, we have two non shooting threats parked there. [These are our accuracy rankings from the corner. Note that small sample sizes are not ranked](https://imgur.com/80yCy04). That is a [huge contrast to last year](https://imgur.com/dkq1K2U) when we had all these guys capable from the corner and from 3.

[This is a chart of the leagues highest volume corner three teams](https://imgur.com/nqt0cRG)

[This is a chart of the leagues most accurate corner three teams](https://imgur.com/tlGo5Uf)

**We are ranked 19th for volume and 25th for accuracy from the corner.**

We are technically ahead of Golden State in accuracy, but their volume is so much higher than ours that it is still a positive shot for them for multiple reasons, including that it spaces the floor allowing them to be a top 2 rim finishing team regards to accuracy and top 10 in volume.

**We are 23rd in volume and 20th in accuracy at the rim because the paint is so clogged against us.**

I want to compare this to two things:

I want to compare those rankings to [last year](https://imgur.com/iL41DnZ), where we were *11th in rim accuracy, 2nd in all midrange, 9th in the corner, and 2 for overall threes.*

And I want to compare that to [the seven years Harden was on the Rockets](https://imgur.com/1WFbTuu).

It is not a coincidence that when the corner three fails, both Harden and our pick and roll suffers. We cannot run a sufficient modern offense when we have our corners being taken up by guys that won't shoot and they won't cut. It legitimately just seems like the corner is being used to place the guys the team wants to make run the furthest to get back on defense rather than using it as an actual floor spacing threat. And since they aren't frequently cutting backdoor either, it's just removing one of the most effective ways to space the floor for a spread pick and roll and turning it into a negative shot for us.


This is not just a "we need to hit more corner threes!!" problem. It's a schematic flaw in our offense. We are ruining our pick and roll game because we are not shooting corner threes, and the corner - which is one of the most effective 3pt shots in the NBA - is being used as a filler spot to hide guys on offense rather than as the floor spacing threat it should be.

This is what I've been saying all this time. WHY are we parking guys that can't shoot in the corners? And if they do have to be there, why aren't they cutting?

Every time Harden drives, it's a wall of defenders waiting because the shooters don't have to be respected and they aren't making backdoor cuts

Nash has no idea what he's doing.

[HardenGoat]

This is a spot on write up and excellent post. Rockets had 3 shooters/playmakers in Harden/CP3/Gordon along with shooters (Anderson, Ariza, Tucker, Gerald Green). Adding Kyrie and Harris solves the problem at least when they are on the floor. Problem is Kyrie is part time, and Harris is not a creator and is not a great defender overall. This means we only have Harden on home games as our table setter and threat for drives. Seeing this I would rather have Gordon right now than Harris and then add another spot up corner shooter that is also a defender. Gordon is a great player in the playoffs and defensively. The only risk is his health, but he is looking great. With the Kyrie issue we really need another creator that can shoot if we are going to be a contender.

[Claud]

No offensive system, ISO ISO ISO, losing Joe Harris + Kyrie, not replacing Uncle Jeff role, No D'Antoni.

[pr0wler]

Too bad Blake lost his shot, Aldridge can't really shoot 3's, and Claxton doesn't space the floor. We have limited options for a 5 out offense which I think could be effective.

[pr0wler]

This is a spot on write up and excellent post. Rockets had 3 shooters/playmakers in Harden/CP3/Gordon along with shooters (Anderson, Ariza, Tucker, Gerald Green). Adding Kyrie and Harris solves the problem at least when they are on the floor. Problem is Kyrie is part time, and Harris is not a creator and is not a great defender overall. This means we only have Harden on home games as our table setter and threat for drives. Seeing this I would rather have Gordon right now than Harris and then add another spot up corner shooter that is also a defender. Gordon is a great player in the playoffs and defensively. The only risk is his health, but he is looking great. With the Kyrie issue we really need another creator that can shoot if we are going to be a contender.

Agreed. I remember lots of posts a year or two ago on the main board claiming that Gordon was done, because he had an off year shooting the 3.

However, EG is a G, g. I had a sneaking suspicion his slump was sample size issues, and he's shot the lights out this season. He's not the same shooter as Harris, but he's a tough rock solid defender anywhere. I doubt the Nets can trade for him, but he'd fit perfectly and as a Rockets fan who has seen him play for like 6 years, I'd be happy to have him aboard.

[Sharcm1]

This is the current nets offense. Iso harden or Durant. Maybe a pick for them. That’s it

There is no consistent offensive sets. No plays to get other guys shots. Or even spacing. We went from one of the best three point shooting teams to one of the worst. The change in personnel hurt a lot also. Green, shamet, Tyler Johnson, TLC, chiozza all hit their open threes. The guys now aren’t threats.

[LOUiS-D]

Like everyone's said it's lack of spacing + isoball. Good news is we have at least one piece of the puzzle on our roster. Kess. Play the kid.

[Prokorov]

A bunch of factors:

Harden hasn't been the same guy that ran the Rocket offenses for years. He's at a career low in 3pt% with less attempts per game than he's taken since 2014. His efficiency is at a career low outside of his rookie year - with the fewest FG attempts since he left OKC.I think it's pretty clear he hasn't been a guy that defenses fear. He isn't top 15 in scoring - which is insane when you consider Kyrie is out, his heavy minutes, and that this guy averaged 34 ppg 2 years ago.

Whether you want to blame roster construction or the coaching, the spacing has been god awful this year. Last year, we never played more than 1 non-shooter at a time. With Jeff Green, we actually went 5 out with Harden essentially being the worst shooter on the floor. The coaches actually went out of their way to stagger Brown and Claxton since they were the only non-shooters in the rotation. This year - Blake completely lost his jump shot. And we started regularly playing 2 to 3 non-shooters at once. You're just not gonna score efficiently no matter what schemes you draw up or how good KD is or how you try to manage shot selection. Not in the long term.

All of these were issues before Joe Harris got hurt (Nash was playing 2 centers at the same time regularly) but obviously losing him and Kyrie completely changes the dynamic of the team. We saw a glimpse of it in Indiana when Kyrie + Mills + Harden + KD played together. The paint was wide open for once and life was easy. We scored 130 without hitting our 3s. Now we're at the point where the only proven shooters in the rotation are KD + Mills. Harden too but he doesn't like taking spot up 3s and he's at 32%. .

I agree with all of this except for the first part about Harden:

1) I dont think comparing his production/efficiency to Houston is an accurate measure. Last year we would all agree Harden was MVP level for the nets but his FGA/3PA were low last year too. Playing next to the league leading scorer and playing more of a PG role are more to say for that. last year 16.6 FGA/7.6 3PA this year 15.6 FGA/7.1 3PA. His scoring assists are similar as well... 24.5/11 vs 22.5/10

2) His efficiency and percentages are down. but i think really thats due to poor play and rule changes in the first few weeks:

His first 12 game shis TS% was 55.5. his last 22 games is 59.8 (bringing his season total back up to 58.5). Now that is still below his number from last year with the nets (61.9) But when you do an adjustment compared to the league based on new rules, he really isnt far off last year.

Last years league average TS% was 57.2. Harden was a +4.7 above league average. This season so far the average is 54.9. Harden is currently +3.6 on league average for the year BUT he is +4.9 over league average if you look at the past 22 games where he started to turn things around. To put it in perspective, despite an awful start he is less then 1% behind Curry (59.2) and Embiid (59.3) in TS%

His FT attemps which were WAY down those first 12 games are on-par with his houston average of around 10 and even with the slow start he is at 8.1 per game, more then last year with the Nets.

Overall, he was clearly way off the first 10-12 games. some combo of the rules + recovering from hammy + playing into shape + new teammates + no D'antoni. but since, he has been at least 90-95% of what we saw last year.

3) The coaches arent doing him any favors. yeah no spacing at times but really they dont do much to help him beyond that. His 3's are down cause he has to take bail out attempts more then in the grove attemps cause the offense is so mediocure. We dont do much to help generate looks with movement, scheme, or attacking weak links on the other team. we dont hunt mismatches in pick and rolls. and we have NOTHING for when teams doulbe our stars.

case in point. Last game they hard double harden from tip off on all screen and rolls and glued defenders to mills/durant on the wing. this forced a pass to claxton at the top of the three point line who had a 2-on-1 with either duke or james johnson. Claxton is athletic but he isnt giannis or prime dwight who is going to take 2 dribbles and dunk on someone. maybe catch a lob, but not drive and dunk. He also isnt a great passer where he is going to catch it clean, pivot, drive to create the lane and then dish to johnson or duke consistenly for a lay in.

The defense welcomes that. We allow it. there are alot of options. for one you could let johnson or duke set the screen, roll and then you have a better ball handler and passer (especially if its johnson) attacking the 2-on-1 with the dribble and then passing to a superior above the rim finisher in claxton. but we didnt. our adjustment was to try it 4 more times and then try and fake/slip the screen but they still doubled and claxton still got it in no mans land.

last year green was that PF. so if claxton caught it one of KD/Harris/Green would be wide open for a three (usually green). but not so with duke or johnson. with that being the case, as a coaching staff (not just nash) dont cry about it, maximize how you can attack it.

-Have KD screen. you cant leave KD to double.
-Have Johnson screen. he is more of a dribbler/passer as a big and can execute that 2 on 1 passing to claxton vs claxton having to be that playmaker
-Instead of having claxton roll and recieve the pass, have claxton roll and immedietly screen mills or KDs man, leaving them open for a shot (there is no one to help once KD/Mills mann is screened since its 4-on-3 after the double team

Harden to me looks almost all the way back. his floater is coming and his three isnt there (id assume fatigue in his legs isnt helping). but he is giving us 23/11 on almost 60 TS% and is #2 in the league in FTA beheind only Giannis who is often sent there on purpose.

I think if you get Kyrie and or Joe back OR the coaching actually does some coaching Harden looks identical to last year.

[Prokorov]

Also KD would be WAY more efficient if he had spacing around him and a good offense. Right now, he's scoring 30 on double + triple teams with the paint packed. If the space was there, he'd be getting way more layups + dunks + not be forced to take tough shots. KD is at a career high in FGA per game. This isn't the type of ball he wants to play. He just doesn't have a choice.

I'm not sure how true this is. I mean its the case at times. But often the #1 option on the play is for a KD mid-range jumper out of isolation. Like we give it to him in the mid-baseline post, clear out the side and he attacks the elbow for a jumper. I'm actually surprised he ISNT doubled more because he has proven to be a really poor passer and turnover prone against the double team. I think what is lacking is catch and shoot threes. he gets almost none this year.

the end result is the same. we need to

A) get all our guys but especially our stars more open looks
B) We need to use our stars gravity to open up the floor