Windhorst Source says Rosas Tenure Worse than David Kahn’s

[shrink]

In the most recent Scoops podcast, Brian Windhorst mentioned one of his sources has a detailed, multi-point case demonstrating Gersson Rosas tenure was worse than David Kahn’s. He didn’t have it in front of him, so he didn’t comment further.

Any of you want to run with this?


EDIT: I set up this thread because I thought it was a good talker, but I came across this summary of the Friday interview, that has other pieces of info that you guys might like. I’ll post it, but please take this info to the right threads for more discussion. Thanks:

Gupta wants to improve talent - specifically frontcourt

Talks have been held with Indiana and Philly for Turner and Simmons

Gupta targeting top 6 this season

Monroe wanted to remain in Minny but Gupta not willing to go into Luxury Tax and Monroe wasnt in rotation

Glen Taylor doesnt want to enter luxury tax unless a top seed - likely home court team

Agreement that they could see Prince be packaged with the 2022 first and filler for Turner or Nurkic - Nurkic hasnt been said to be available, but Windhorst says to look out for that

Okogie has attracted interest according to Windhorst

Minnesota has offered 'every asset package possible' for Ben Simmons outside of Towns/Edwards

Wolfson believes Covington and Wood could be targets. Windhorst believes some teams "dont like" Christian Wood, Covington could happen

Windhorst mentions the Morey Family of GMs. Mentions Houston and Sacramento as teams interested in Simmons and how its possible Minnesota gets involved in multi team deals

Uncertainty regarding Gupta's future. Gupta wants to stay and he should get the job if he gets playoffs. Possibility of Lore wanting someone else.

Windhorst mentions a source saying Rosas' tenure was worse than David Kahn's.

[Worm Guts]

I don’t know about that. It’s hard to get worse then Kahn’s draft record and then there was the Darko fiasco.

[Worm Guts]

The argument for Kahn though is probably that he usually had us in good financial position with extra draft picks, he just had no clue when it came to identifying talent.

[King Malta]

I mean for his all faults the team that Rosas built has a legitimate shot at being a top 6 seed in the West this year. Kahn never got close to anything like that.

[Biff Cooper]

So they offered Ant in a deal for Simmons and Philly didn't take it? Must have been some really good stuff in the offer for Minnesota for them to decline.

[shangrila]

So they offered Ant in a deal for Simmons and Philly didn't take it? Must have been some really good stuff in the offer for Minnesota for them to decline.

Nope, didn’t offer Edwards. About half way down shrink’s bullet points

[Mattya]

Not even close.

[shrink]

I am higher on both, but I would certainly say Kahn did worse. What disturbs me in retrospect is that i thought Kahn’s moves were fine at the time.

Kahn’s very first move was the best trade I’ve ever seen for MIN. He got hired in May, and in the doldrums weeks before the draft, he traded Mike Miller and Randy Foye to Washington for the #5 pick. Neither of the MIN players would be starters in WAS, but fellow horrible GM Ernie Grundeld felt the Wizards would be winners if the bench improved. Great trade.

After that, it was all downhill for the next four years. Rubio was expected to be drafted third, and it was a stroke of luck we got him at #5. We knew he’d stay in Europe, and Foye was gone, so I didn’t mind him selecting another PG - he just chose Jonny Flynn over Steph Curry. Jonny was a huge reach, even after a great NCAA tournament, and Curry had said he didn’t want to come here, had a problematic knee, and was considered too small for the NBA, just piling up stats at Davison, but he was still the consensus pick. The third point guard drafted, Ty Lawson, was traded to DEN, so I think the “what idiot drafts three PG’s?” stuff is a little overblown.

He continued to make drafting blunders. He chose Wesley Johnson over DeMarcus Cousins, because he was worried about Boogie’s issues. I had no problem when he drafted Derrick Williams #2 .. he was by far the consensus pick, and sometimes you just have the wrong pick in the wrong year. I also liked his strategy of value-investing, on high upside players who had their prices beaten down by injuries or issues, but he never found the right guys (Martell Webster and Brandon Roy come to mind). I’ll also never forget how he signed Kirilenko to a contract that was rejected by the NBA Head Office because he didn’t add up our cap space correctly! People asked me here, “How?” and I had no idea - I never thought an actual front office would mess that up!

Anyway, the bottom line here is always wins and losses, and Kahn had the second worst winning record in our history (Rosas is even worse). He had high picks, but he was a bad talent evaluator that wasted those assets when there were stars to be had. I think he’s the worst.

[wolves_89]

I think Kahn was among the worst GMs in the NBA over the last 25 years. He was ridiculously bad at drafting, was not good at trades, and did little on the free agent market. Basically he sucked at every facet of being a GM.

While Rosas wasn't all that great at the job, at least he made a few good moves (coupled with some pretty bad moves) that put the franchise in a decent position. Overall, I'd say Rosas' good moves (developing Naz/Nowell/Vando, drafting Ant, Beverley trade) were evenly off-set by poor moves (DLO trade, drafting Culver, Rubio trade). If Ant develops into a super-star, Rosas tenure will end up being a net positive, but there were just too many blown opportunities under his watch to call him a good GM.

[winforlose]

Rosas whiffed on Culver but found Nowell and Naz that same year. He followed that up with Ant, MCD, and Leo. More impressive is the fact that he got Leo by trading down a pick he intended to use on MCD and still got MCD lower (thus cheaper.) Rosas also made the Pat Bev trade.

There is a lot of controversy surrounding the other moves, and while I won’t dissect them all, bringing in V8 for KBD was solid. Dlo probably kept KAT from demanding a trade, and on paper Spellman could have been useful had he kept his weight down and swallowed his pride. The other moves like Beasley and Juancho are obvious failures.

Overall the reason I think Rosas was better is he hired Finch. Finch is a wild card that no one saw coming. Finch is not perfect, but he has built a trust and culture that I have been waiting for since becoming a wolves fan. Unlike Thibs he got the guys to care about defense. He has the guys bought in on his system, and hired some of the best assistant coaches we have had. I give Rosas the W because Finch is getting us the Ws.

[Worm Guts]

Culver was a bad pick, but it doesn’t appear there was a multi-time all-star taken behind him. The jury is still out to some degree on all Rosas picks, but I don’t think it’s possible to be worse than Kahn’s. Hindsight is 20/20, but passing on Curry twice is an all-time blunder probably only behind Bowie over Jordan and trading McHale and Parish for Joe Barry Carroll.

[Calinks]

I can't speak to Rosas' behavior. treatment of his staff but I think he was really good as a GM. I love how he transformed the team and I really like a lot of his trades.

He messed up with Culver and a few picks/trades but I think some moves were great even if they didn't work out.

Getting Beasly, Juancho, Vando was big. Beasly is having a bad season but I think it was a great pickup at the time. I had no idea Vando would be the homerun he is. I still think the DLO trade was a good move, we can argue the pick, that was a huge cost so I don't blame anyone for being against it but I do think DLO gits this team way more than Wiggins.

Nowell and Naz were great under-the-radar pickups who were developed (for years we complained about never developing players).

Drafting Ant was great. You can argue Lamello but I think we needed Ant more. Pat Bev was great, the Finch hire was excellent. I don't like the small ball stuff and a lack of a big. Rosas has not been perfect but I think he was good and he left a huge mark on this team, we are pointed in the right direction and I see our path to being good.

Kahn was disaster after disaster, I don't even think it is close from a results/team standpoint.

[Klomp]

From an outsider's POV, putting us against the luxury tax is bad. But for people who follow daily, we are never going to be a FA destination. I love the trade and re-sign method to building the roster personally.

[shrink]

Rosas whiffed on Culver but found Nowell and Naz that same year. He followed that up with Ant, MCD, and Leo. More impressive is the fact that he got Leo by trading down a pick he intended to use on MCD and still got MCD lower (thus cheaper.) Rosas also made the Pat Bev trade.

There is a lot of controversy surrounding the other moves, and while I won’t dissect them all, bringing in V8 for KBD was solid. Dlo probably kept KAT from demanding a trade, and on paper Spellman could have been useful had he kept his weight down and swallowed his pride. The other moves like Beasley and Juancho are obvious failures.

Overall the reason I think Rosas was better is he hired Finch. Finch is a wild card that no one saw coming. Finch is not perfect, but he has built a trust and culture that I have been waiting for since becoming a wolves fan. Unlike Thibs he got the guys to care about defense. He has the guys bought in on his system, and hired some of the best assistant coaches we have had. I give Rosas the W because Finch is getting us the Ws.

I agree - bringing in Finch was one of his best moves.

I hated the way Rosas forced the coach and players to play his style, even when it didn’t match our personnel. Fortunately, for our team and our players, he brought in a coach that could say no.

[winforlose]

Rosas whiffed on Culver but found Nowell and Naz that same year. He followed that up with Ant, MCD, and Leo. More impressive is the fact that he got Leo by trading down a pick he intended to use on MCD and still got MCD lower (thus cheaper.) Rosas also made the Pat Bev trade.

There is a lot of controversy surrounding the other moves, and while I won’t dissect them all, bringing in V8 for KBD was solid. Dlo probably kept KAT from demanding a trade, and on paper Spellman could have been useful had he kept his weight down and swallowed his pride. The other moves like Beasley and Juancho are obvious failures.

Overall the reason I think Rosas was better is he hired Finch. Finch is a wild card that no one saw coming. Finch is not perfect, but he has built a trust and culture that I have been waiting for since becoming a wolves fan. Unlike Thibs he got the guys to care about defense. He has the guys bought in on his system, and hired some of the best assistant coaches we have had. I give Rosas the W because Finch is getting us the Ws.

I agree - bringing in Finch was one of his best moves.

I hated the way Rosas forced the coach and players to play his style, even when it didn’t match our personnel. Fortunately, for our team and our players, he brought in a coach that could say no.

Just have to ask. How much of the players buying in this year, is Finch refusing to tank last year. Telling his guys that winning matters and that he will do anything to get the guys in a position to win.

[moss_is_1]

Rosas wasn't awful. He did a lot of good.

I think Kahn gets more hate than maybe is deserved, hes not among the worst of all time like people say he is. However he should've built a way better team with all the draft capitol we had. He has some epic failures and lolworthy sayings/moves. Mana from heaven, 09 draft, and the trading back to fire Rambis.

[MN7725]

In the most recent Scoops podcast, Brian Windhorst mentioned one of his sources has a detailed, multi-point case demonstrating Gersson Rosas tenure was worse than David Kahn’s. He didn’t have it in front of him, so he didn’t comment further.

Any of you want to run with this?


EDIT: I set up this thread because I thought it was a good talker, but I came across this summary of the Friday interview, that has other pieces of info that you guys might like. I’ll post it, but please take this info to the right threads for more discussion. Thanks:

Gupta wants to improve talent - specifically frontcourt

Talks have been held with Indiana and Philly for Turner and Simmons

Gupta targeting top 6 this season

Monroe wanted to remain in Minny but Gupta not willing to go into Luxury Tax and Monroe wasnt in rotation

Glen Taylor doesnt want to enter luxury tax unless a top seed - likely home court team

Agreement that they could see Prince be packaged with the 2022 first and filler for Turner or Nurkic - Nurkic hasnt been said to be available, but Windhorst says to look out for that

Okogie has attracted interest according to Windhorst

Minnesota has offered 'every asset package possible' for Ben Simmons outside of Towns/Edwards

Wolfson believes Covington and Wood could be targets. Windhorst believes some teams "dont like" Christian Wood, Covington could happen

Windhorst mentions the Morey Family of GMs. Mentions Houston and Sacramento as teams interested in Simmons and how its possible Minnesota gets involved in multi team deals

Uncertainty regarding Gupta's future. Gupta wants to stay and he should get the job if he gets playoffs. Possibility of Lore wanting someone else.

Windhorst mentions a source saying Rosas' tenure was worse than David Kahn's.

the only interesting part of that to me if its true is the Nurkic angle, that Wolves would be targeting a more plodding C

can at least see the fit with KAT of Turner/Wood since they are pretty mobile and have perimeter/shooting offensive skill

[Neeva]

Bolmaro might be a whiff. The wolves could really use Desmond Bane’s shooting. Bane was right there.

[Neeva]

In the most recent Scoops podcast, Brian Windhorst mentioned one of his sources has a detailed, multi-point case demonstrating Gersson Rosas tenure was worse than David Kahn’s. He didn’t have it in front of him, so he didn’t comment further.

Any of you want to run with this?


EDIT: I set up this thread because I thought it was a good talker, but I came across this summary of the Friday interview, that has other pieces of info that you guys might like. I’ll post it, but please take this info to the right threads for more discussion. Thanks:

Gupta wants to improve talent - specifically frontcourt

Talks have been held with Indiana and Philly for Turner and Simmons

Gupta targeting top 6 this season

Monroe wanted to remain in Minny but Gupta not willing to go into Luxury Tax and Monroe wasnt in rotation

Glen Taylor doesnt want to enter luxury tax unless a top seed - likely home court team

Agreement that they could see Prince be packaged with the 2022 first and filler for Turner or Nurkic - Nurkic hasnt been said to be available, but Windhorst says to look out for that

Okogie has attracted interest according to Windhorst

Minnesota has offered 'every asset package possible' for Ben Simmons outside of Towns/Edwards

Wolfson believes Covington and Wood could be targets. Windhorst believes some teams "dont like" Christian Wood, Covington could happen

Windhorst mentions the Morey Family of GMs. Mentions Houston and Sacramento as teams interested in Simmons and how its possible Minnesota gets involved in multi team deals

Uncertainty regarding Gupta's future. Gupta wants to stay and he should get the job if he gets playoffs. Possibility of Lore wanting someone else.

Windhorst mentions a source saying Rosas' tenure was worse than David Kahn's.

the only interesting part of that to me if its true is the Nurkic angle, that Wolves would be targeting a more plodding C

can at least see the fit with KAT of Turner/Wood since they are pretty mobile and have perimeter/shooting offensive skill

That is a huge wtf a first for always injured Nurkic??

[younggunsmn]

I think it was clear from the beginning Kahn was in way over his head. Shrink mentioned the Kirilenko contract things and then compounding that mistake by sending out a future 1st to dump Wesley Johnson for the room to sign him (ending up being 2 2nds, but also made us unable to trade that 1st for 6 years).

Rosas was bad. His best move looks like hiring FInch, who has maximized what Rosas left and tied his schemes to his talent, and gotten everyone to buy in. We also dont know how much Gupta and his team are influencing those decisions with analytics and how much more freedom/influence Finch has been given since the change.

He also lucked into the 1st overall pick. Imagine how much the franchise would be different if Kahn had landed Kyrie Instead of Derrick WIlliams. Rosas cap and roster management was awful and its a real shame we couldnt keep Monroe here because he's a perfect backup/insurance policy for KAT and I loved his fit as a backup in the Gorgui Dieng mold.
We'll probably never know which moves were Rosas' alone and what the others in the front office brought to him that were rejected or accepted. Bolmaro has shown nothing so far so I wouldn't list that as a win yet. It's nice to have a .500 team halfway through the season. Some of the usual playoff teams are having very down years (Lakers, Clippers, Mavs, Nuggets, Portland). Some of that is injuries, some is age/chemistry. That's not guaranteed to continue. Hopefully we can stay healthy and continue on the upswing. Top 6 would be awesome.