Lowest arguable ranking for Kobe?

[dhsilv2]

I answered the question posed by the OP. You've done nothing but take jabs at the player in question. Who's the one in their feelings, again?

Booker is my favorite player and he did really well in the playoffs last year... But if we won the chip it would have been because of Ayton.

And you have to look at Kobe in this same sense. Who was the most consistent player that actually put the team on their back. And that was Shaq and Pau.

Come on now, don't go in to extremes ...Normal stats, advance stats and even On/Off numbers alone will tell you that Kobe was the one doing actual carrying during Gasol era. He just needed his 2nd star like MJ and Lebron did, well Lebron needed more but still, you get my point...

Kobe was better, end of story.

But this is why we can't have nice things in life

Raw playoff +/0

2008 Kobe +64 Gasol +82
2009 Kobe +181 Gasol +152
2010 Kobe +98 Gasol +97

2010 it was Gasol with the higher playoff WS as well.

None of this means Gasol was better or carried Kobe, but don't make it out that people can't use stats to make the case that Gasol was at times as good and/or impactful for those teams at times as Kobe.

[ProcessDoctor]

I think he can range anywhere from 10-14.

The 9 players I have greater than him: MJ, LeBron, Kareem, Wilt, Magic, Bird, Duncan, Shaq, Russell.

Players in the same tier: Olajuwon, Big O, Curry, and likely Durant.

[maxpower8888]

The absolute lowest I'd rank Kobe is top 20, but I have him in the top 15, closer to 10 than 15.

[HoopsterJones]

I’d have him no lower than 14th.

[dodongo]

IMO Kobe is...

Definitey lower than

LeBron
MJ
KAJ
Duncan
Russell

Now, depending on what you value, you could say he is better than or at par with

Wilt
Shaq
Bird
Magic

I think most of RealGM has him at about the level of (I know I do)

Hakeem

And some would argue other guys belong on the same tier

KG
Big O
Curry?
KD?
Dr J?
Admiral?

Then there are those guys that are a bit harder to rank

Baylor
Petit
Mikan

Personally I have Kobe 8 to 12
But I guess if you're really trying to nitpick, could go down to 15? maybe 20?

[CobraCommander]

If we drafting with perfect hindsight is Kobe still on the board after 11 picks?

MJ, Kareem, LBJ, Wilt, Duncan, the MagicBird (they so connected that people have to post their names next to each other), Shaq,

Then we talking Hakeem, Russell, Curry and Kobe right before you get to the KDs and Giannis (assume dude gonna get more hardware)


If no one respects the triple dub anymore than the Big O not coming if westbrook not gonna be there.


I legit don’t know If the big O was just that time periods this years Westbrook - It’s the problem with stats for players you never saw.

If it’s just stats Wilt is the Goat with a good ole 50pt & 25 reb. Do that now and we not even talking about jordan ever again

[Beethoven]

I can see (I have seen) arguments where he can definitely be top ten or a bit outside of it but to me personally he's always top 3

[Johnny Bball]

7.

[druggas]

This one is interesting because Kobe wasnt the best shooter and wasnt the best clutch player... And his rings can be argued that Shaq and Pau carried him. When Shaq left Kobe didnt even make the playoffs til they got Pau. Will be interesting to see where people rank him.

Just don't talk if you don't know.

[JN61]

20-22 range. There's not much you can drop him realistically.

[Dutchball97]

The highest I could justify Kobe would be 8th and I have him ranked 11th at the moment personally. West, KD, Dirk and Dr J have similar peaks, longevity and post-season success so I could see them above Kobe as well. KG, Oscar and Robinson have better peaks and similar longevity but worse play-off resumes. Karl Malone's longevity advantage could be enough to give the edge to some. Mikan is a wildcard as he played super early and lacks longevity but going by relative dominance he's in the convo.

So that'd be 20th at the lowest, maybe you could get it even further with the likes of Curry and Moses but in this case you literally have to give the benefit of the doubt to every single comparable player to Kobe and with each of them having different arguments (some peak, some longevity etc) it'd be really hard to do all at the same time. Honestly anything past 15th or so is already pushing it imo.

[OdomFan]

This one is interesting because Kobe wasnt the best shooter and wasnt the best clutch player... And his rings can be argued that Shaq and Pau carried him. When Shaq left Kobe didnt even make the playoffs til they got Pau. Will be interesting to see where people rank him.

*quoting before the edit*

Pau only joined the lakers in 2008. Kobe led the lakers with smush parker and kwame brown to the playoffs in 2006 and 2007.... took your suns 7 games to defeat them in 2006

I was just going off the top of my head so they missed the playoffs once when shaq left and were first round exits until pau... W.e same thing... The argument can still be made that Shaq and Pau carried.

It can also be argued that Kobe wasn't carried. Shaq was the top dog of those early 2000 Lakers without question, however it's pretty hilarious how some on here look at Shaqs ppg stats from those finals and act as though he passed the ball to himself in order to create all of those scoring opportunities during that 3 peat run. Kobe Bryant was absolutely the main play maker for that team. Making sure Shaq and everyone else was getting theirs as well as his within that Triangle offense, not to mention guarding the other teams best guards.

You say the Lakers missed the playoffs in 2005 yet you're forgetting that that's the year that they were very much in playoff contention before their coach Rudy T had to retire due to his health, not to mention their starting Center Vlade Divac retired for the same reason and Kobe himself missed a big chunk of games with an injury but yeah..OMG Kobes Lakers missed the playoffs once!.

Reality is both Shaq and Pau needed Kobe as much as he needed them and the rest of the guys from those respective Laker eras roster.
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With that being said, My official ranking for him is between 11-12 all time, however it's not unfair to have him some where at the lower end of the Top 10 if someone chooses to put him there. His role was as important as any other top player in the history of the game, but his ego (and Shaqs as well) certainly did get in the way of things at times that ended up costing them. So yeah. Top 11-12 works for him in my book.

[CIN-C-STAR]

Probably just outside top 20.
Great team success but he was not the best player on the team for most of his titles. Great longevity but only 1 MVP.
Great player but tends to get a little overrated due to market/media bias and because many fans' eye test loves nothing more than a high-volume iso scorer on the perimeter.

[MarcusBrody]

MJ, LeBron, KAJ, Wilt, Russell, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, Olajuwon, Big O, West, Dr. J, Baylor, Curry, Mikan, Pettit, and Moses are the only ones who have a legitimate argument over Kobe depending on how you rank older players and I wouldn't necessarily put Kobe at the bottom of that list.

17-19ish is the lowest you can place him.

This is roughly my list, but I would add Steph and KD to the list. My controversial opinion is that it's closer with Karl Malone, Dirk, and Barkley than a lot of people would grant so I wouldn't be offended if people argued for them.

So in my mind I was thinking 20 was the floor, but maybe in the low 20s.

Now, I don't have him that low, but that's where he might end up if you put him under every single possibly debatable guy.

Edit: DWade is another. We've had posts on here asking who people would prefer at their peak and it wasn't unanimously Kobe with decent arguments on both sides so I guess he should be in the list.

I will say that this group of people are "debatable" with Kobe in different ways (peak/titles/longevity/etc.) so I wouldn't have expect them all to be ahead of him on any given metric

[Kingdibs19]

25 to 30

[Masigond]

If you're a fan of advanced statistics Kobe might fall to the region of the higher teens to mid 20s.

For me anywhere between 10 and 15 seems reasonable, mostly due to his longevity. It would have been very interesting if he had not been with the Lakers but with a lesser franchise, thus having lesser chances of winning titles and other accolades. Those and his popularity (also boosted by being a Laker from the begin of his NBA career on) might make many think that he's way into the top 10.

[DS17]

Probably just outside top 20.
Great team success but he was not the best player on the team for most of his titles. Great longevity but only 1 MVP.
Great player but tends to get a little overrated due to market/media bias and because many fans' eye test loves nothing more than a high-volume iso scorer on the perimeter.

“Only 1 mvp”. Like he didn’t deserve more than that one.

[kivancb]

There are 7 players whom I would absolutely take over Kobe. In alphabetical order:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Anybody who thinks Kobe ranks over one of those guys is imho wrong.

Kobe has a case for the #8 spot, but I wouldn't give that to him either (Though I have no problem with anyone ranking him as #8 of all-time). I believe some of the players below have a better case than being a greater player than Kobe, but Kobe also has cases against them, so it's at least arguable:

Stephen Curry
Kevin Durant
Kevin Garnett
John Havlicek
Karl Malone
Moses Malone
Dirk Nowitzki
Hakeem Olajuwon
Shaquille O'Neal
Chris Paul
Dwyane Wade
Jerry West

James Harden and Giannis will probably also enter this discussion within the next few years.

Personally I have him at #10, just after Shaq and Hakeem. But a logical and lowest arguable ranking could make him drop to 15, which would not be a sin, but a bit below his deserving spot for now.

note: I have forgotten Wilt and Oscar Robertson; I'd rank both just below Kobe, around 11-12 seems to be OK with them.

[dhsilv2]

I have Kobe in the 12-15 range.

But ok...let me see here. Winning matters but only in the right context (we'll get there). Peak over all else. And I'm going to skew towards using stats based on the regular season. I'll bias the stat analysis in a couple of key ways. Passing is more scalable than scoring. Defense is missed in stats when the player is a rim protector and/or elite off ball and all else equal defense trumps scoring.

Base line - Kobe's peak WS and VORP. 15.3 (.224) 8.0 (7.6)

Guys i'm just saying peaked higher and not going to dig into.

MJ, Lebron, CP3, Dirk, Hakeem, Bird, Magic, KG, Duncan, O'neal, Curry, Giannis, KD, Harden (I don't like myself), Robinson, Wilt, Russell, West, Oscar.

OK we have 19 guys who I can make pretty easy stats cases on just better peak box metrics.

So can I use my bias methods or maybe look at some short careers?

Walton? - Peak BPM tops Kobe's. Elite passing big man and considered by some at his peak to be in the discussion as a top 5 all time defender. I think he passes the smell test here.

Jokic? - Sure stats are better. Kinda like Harden above, I don't feel right doing it yet, but to be consistent he has to move up.
Mikan? - not sure how to even use era stats with him, but lets just assume he passes this test
Karl? - Really great passing big man and likely would have had better stats if stockton wasn't running that show. Peak VORP and BPM and WS all work here. OK
Walt Frazier - we don't get VORP stats for his best years but he does peak higher in WS and WS/48. He was an elite defender at the guard and passer. I'd never rank him this high but ok.
Pettit - doesn't pass on peak WS but has 2 near equal years with a higher WS/48. lets throw him in.
Stockton - actually fits the entire criteria which is weird and not expected


Moses? - higher peak in WS and he has a nice peak WS/48 at .248. BPM and VORP don't do it. He doesn't fit any of my bias criteria. Sorry Moses.
Rose? - nope
Hondo? - here again the stats won't support it but MVP + he fits the bias criteria. Still passing
Brand - this is one many would be shocked to even realize but his 06 season was THAT good, we can consider him. But passing
Westbrook - i just refuse lol

Anyway this gets us to 26th as I can't waste more time looking for any outlier seasons. But this at least gives a consistent method that could move Kobe near the 30 spot.

edit - forgot Wade

[Doranku]

Kobe has a Shaq problem when you're talking GOAT. Kobe wasn't even the MVP in the majority of his finals.

Maybe 12-15? We have players, playing now that are pushing him down my list in real time. Curry for example. I could not put Kobe above Curry.

The classic Kobe double standard. How many times was Curry MVP in his finals?