Lowest arguable ranking for Kobe?

[LAL1947]

This one is interesting because Kobe wasnt the best shooter and wasnt the best clutch player... And his rings can be argued that Shaq and Pau carried him. When Shaq left Kobe didnt even make the playoffs til they got Pau. Will be interesting to see where people rank him.

*quoting before the edit*

Pau only joined the lakers in 2008. Kobe led the lakers with smush parker and kwame brown to the playoffs in 2006 and 2007.... took your suns 7 games to defeat them in 2006

I was just going off the top of my head so they missed the playoffs once when shaq left and were first round exits until pau... W.e same thing... The argument can still be made that Shaq and Pau carried.

"That Pau carried"?? Carried whaaaat exactly?? If you meant Pau may have carried Kobe's shoes off the bus to the locker-room from time to time, then you may have something there.

[LAL1947]

Me: Trying to discuss something
Kobe stans: TROLL!!!

Good conversation.

Err, no, that's not an accurate summary or description of what is going on.

You: Making ludicrous statements that do not reflect reality in any way, such as, "Pau carried Kobe".
Kobe/Laker fans: Hahahahaha!
You: Why you mad at me bro?

[LAL1947]

There are 7 players whom I would absolutely take over Kobe. In alphabetical order:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Anybody who thinks Kobe ranks over one of those guys is imho wrong.

I have a huge problem with this statement because I do not think Duncan and Russell were better than Kobe. If you want to say that you feel those two were better, then you have a right to your opinion... however, you cannot dismiss others who feel otherwise, and there are more people who think that Kobe was better than those two.

Remember... this is the same Tim Duncan who never won a back-to-back ring despite having the best FO, best coach, and deepest squad in the league for the majority of his prime. The same Tim Duncan who lost a finals MVP to a Tony Parker, not even to a Shaq or a Durant. The same Tim Duncan who was captain of the first USA Men's basketball team to not win the Olympic gold in 40 years! The "best PF in history" thing is also a silly cliche that some commentator said a long time back, and is repeated by blind-witness hipsters today. Tim Duncan was a Center, who only played at PF while the Spurs still had Robinson because that was the efficient decision for their team. If Duncan was a PF, then so was Hakeem... and I'd take Hakeem over Duncan any time. Hakeem had better skills on offense... skills that took the game of basketball forward from where the NBA was when he joined. Hakeem was also better on defense.

And Bill Russell has more rings due to the strength of his old Celtics team but he what else does he have? Apart from being able to play defense at a high level due to his athleticism and size, did he take the game of basketball forward in any other way due to talent or skills that he exhibited? Wilt was his contemporary, and if Wilt was on the same team as him, then Russell would have been sent to the Celtics bench due to redundancy. Could any of Kobe's contemporaries send him to the bench? The only player at his position that could have sent him to the bench is the GOAT, MJ, who was done by the time Kobe got going.

[Marrrcuss]

There are 7 players whom I would absolutely take over Kobe. In alphabetical order:

Kareem Abdul-Jabbar
Larry Bird
Tim Duncan
Lebron James
Magic Johnson
Michael Jordan
Bill Russell

Anybody who thinks Kobe ranks over one of those guys is imho wrong.

I have a huge problem with this statement because I do not think Duncan and Russell were better than Kobe. If you want to say that you feel those two were better, then you have a right to your opinion... however, you cannot dismiss others who feel otherwise, and there are more people who think that Kobe was better than those two.

Remember... this is the same Tim Duncan who never won a back-to-back ring despite having the best FO, best coach, and deepest squad in the league for the majority of his prime. The same Tim Duncan who lost a finals MVP to a Tony Parker, not even to a Shaq or a Durant. The same Tim Duncan who was captain of the first USA Men's basketball team to not win the Olympic gold in 40 years! This "best PF in history" is also a silly cliche that some commentator said a long time back, and is repeated by blind witness hipsters today. Tim Duncan was a Center, who only played at PF while the Spurs still had Robinson becauase that was the efficient decision for their team. If Duncan was a PF, then so was Hakeem... and I'd pick Hakeem over Duncan any time.

And Bill Russell has more rings due to the strength of his old Celtics team but he what else does he have? Apart from being able to play defense at a high level due to his athleticism and size, did he take the game of basketball forward in any other way due to talent or skills that he exhibited? Wilt was his contemporary, and if Wilt was on the same team as him, then Russell would have been sent to the Celtics bench due to redundancy. Can you say the same for Kobe? The only player at his position that could have sent him to the bench is the GOAT, who was done by the time Kobe got going.

I think Timmy should be next and for this "lowest possible" ranking stuff and there will be a lot of variances.

The media kept chirping and chirping that the guy that played most of his time at center was the greatest power forward and everyone ate it up.
Anytime he took the bank shot, the announcers went wild whether he made it or not. I think he is another player that benefitted greatly from aesthetics. He was so likeable for the people that find reasons not to like certain players.
Bro took full advantage of his 7'1 frame.

All that said, i have a hard time ranking him over Kobe. They are in the same general vicinity though.

[Masigond]

Oh boy, now the arbitrary arguments like back-to-back titles, Finals MVP and the US Team's failure in 1996 again.


Only to the last: AI & Marbury. Good luck when playing FIBA basketball with them, and without good shooters on your team.

[Marrrcuss]

Oh boy, now the arbitrary arguments like back-to-back titles, Finals MVP and the US Team's failure in 1996 again.


Only to the last: AI & Marbury. Good luck when playing FIBA basketball with them.

Finals MVP isnt arbitrary in my opinion but i feel like i know why you slipped that in.

I just badmouthed mind readers so i wont be a hypocrite and say, lol

[LAL1947]

Oh boy, now the arbitrary arguments like back-to-back titles, Finals MVP and the US Team's failure in 1996 again.

Those aren't arbitrary arguments... they are facts. Arbitrary arguments are the things that Timmy-lovers use to try and put him over Kobe as a player.

[NyKnicks1714]

15 sounds about right. This is my quick list of players who one could reasonably put ahead of Kobe, even though I might disagree. There are probably 1 or 2 players you could add.

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Wilt
Curry
Durant

[Masigond]

Oh boy, now the arbitrary arguments like back-to-back titles, Finals MVP and the US Team's failure in 1996 again.

Those aren't arbitrary arguments... they are facts. The things that are arbitrary arguments are the things that Timmy-lovers use to try and put him over Kobe as a player.

It's just as arbitrary as pointing out that Duncan won titles in three different decades, but Kobe didn't. While ignoring that no single player wins titles alone.

I hate those "this guy won, but the other didn't" arguments. They say so little about the respective players' individual contributions and impact, and ignore all the incidents that might lead to a team's winning or losing.

[Marrrcuss]

15 sounds about right. This is my quick list of players who one could reasonably put ahead of Kobe, even though I might disagree. There are probably 1 or 2 players you could add.

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Wilt
Curry
Durant

Kobe was all defense first team 9 times and second team a lot of other times. You dont think yall go a bit crazy with the Curry stuff? I mean, given that Kobe was pretty prolific on offense, i dont see an opening in any way for Steph to be better than Kobe.

[Masigond]

Oh boy, now the arbitrary arguments like back-to-back titles, Finals MVP and the US Team's failure in 1996 again.


Only to the last: AI & Marbury. Good luck when playing FIBA basketball with them.

Finals MVP isnt arbitrary in my opinion but i feel like i know why you slipped that in.

I just badmouthed mind readers so i wont be a hypocrite and say, lol

I didn't slip it in. It was mentioned by LAL1947 in his post before your's.

Losing an individual award to a teammate. I wonder if that's even a thing in Duncan's mind, but I guess it truly was one in Kobe's...

[Marrrcuss]

Oh boy, now the arbitrary arguments like back-to-back titles, Finals MVP and the US Team's failure in 1996 again.


Only to the last: AI & Marbury. Good luck when playing FIBA basketball with them.

Finals MVP isnt arbitrary in my opinion but i feel like i know why you slipped that in.

I just badmouthed mind readers so i wont be a hypocrite and say, lol

I didn't slip it in. It was mentioned by LAL1947 in his post before your's.

Losing an individual award to a teammate. I wonder if that's even a thing in Duncan's mind, but I guess it truly was one in Kobe's...

Its not the be all and all, but i think at least one finals, you need to have taken over. Thats just how i feel about it.

At least one time when the lights are brightest, you need to have been a cut above if youve been to more than 1 finals.

[LAL1947]

Oh boy, now the arbitrary arguments like back-to-back titles, Finals MVP and the US Team's failure in 1996 again.

Those aren't arbitrary arguments... they are facts. The things that are arbitrary arguments are the things that Timmy-lovers use to try and put him over Kobe as a player.

It's just as arbitrary as pointing out that Duncan won titles in three different decades, but Kobe didn't. While ignoring that no single player wins titles alone.

I hate those "this guy won, but the other didn't" arguments. They say so little about the respective players' individual contributions and impact, and ignore all the incidents that might lead to a team's winning or losing.

There's another thread where someone just said "Pau carried Kobe" because the Lakers didn't win until Pau got there, lol, and ignoring that the Lakers team was trash between 2004-2007. Yet people will give Timmy full credit for the Spurs 5th title... even though the Spurs probably would have won that 2013-14 title with any of so many other bigs from that time in their lineup instead (like Dwight, LMA, Cousins, Marc Gasol, Kevin Love, Blake, Roy Hibbert, DeAndre Jordan, BroLo... heck maybe even with David Lee). Both of these are also good example of arbitrary arguments that Timmy-lovers use.

Hope you aren't one of those too.

[Marrrcuss]

Those aren't arbitrary arguments... they are facts. The things that are arbitrary arguments are the things that Timmy-lovers use to try and put him over Kobe as a player.

It's just as arbitrary as pointing out that Duncan won titles in three different decades, but Kobe didn't. While ignoring that no single player wins titles alone.

I hate those "this guy won, but the other didn't" arguments. They say so little about the respective players' individual contributions and impact, and ignore all the incidents that might lead to a team's winning or losing.

There's another thread where someone just said "Pau carried Kobe" because the Lakers didn't win until Pau got there, lol, and ignoring that the Lakers team was trash between 2004-2008. Yet people will give Timmy full credit for the Spurs 5th title... even though the Spurs probably would have won that 2013-14 title with any of so many other bigs from that time in the lineup instead (like Dwight, LMA, Cousins, Marc Gasol, Kevin Love, Blake, Roy Hibbert, DeAndre Jordan, BroLo... heck maybe even with David Lee).

Hope you aren't one of those too.

I agree that the 3 decades thing is stupid.

Timmy was very pedestrian in the 2014 finals.I agree but people shout "FIVE RINGS" and it trumps other players. Kobe was never a ride along.

[NyKnicks1714]

15 sounds about right. This is my quick list of players who one could reasonably put ahead of Kobe, even though I might disagree. There are probably 1 or 2 players you could add.

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Wilt
Curry
Durant

Kobe was all defense first team 9 times and second team a lot of other times. You dont think yall go a bit crazy with the Curry stuff? I mean, given that Kobe was pretty prolific on offense, i dont see an opening in any way for Steph to be better than Kobe.

Steph is easily the most efficient guard ever, and I think someone could make an argument based on the pretty sizable gap in scoring efficiency. I'm not saying I agree, but it's certainly not unreasonable.

[Marrrcuss]

15 sounds about right. This is my quick list of players who one could reasonably put ahead of Kobe, even though I might disagree. There are probably 1 or 2 players you could add.

Jordan
LeBron
Kareem
Magic
Bird
Hakeem
Shaq
Duncan
Russell
Wilt
Curry
Durant

Kobe was all defense first team 9 times and second team a lot of other times. You dont think yall go a bit crazy with the Curry stuff? I mean, given that Kobe was pretty prolific on offense, i dont see an opening in any way for Steph to be better than Kobe.

Steph is easily the most efficient guard ever, and I think someone could make an argument based on the pretty sizable gap in scoring efficiency. I'm not saying I agree, but it's certainly not unreasonable.

Defensively its like comparing Lizzo to Beyonce.
Offensively, when it comes to big shots and game winners, its also a horrid comparison. Entirely too much weight is being put on efficiency, but i get it. Its the only thing he has.

[Masigond]

Its not the be all and all, but i think at least one finals, you need to have taken over. Thats just how i feel about it.

At least one time when the lights are brightest, you need to have been a cut above if youve been to more than 1 finals.

If that's a reason, then Duncan already had his Finals MVP trophies, so why care about another one when obviously the team winning is more important for you?

With Kobe we've seen that he wasn't satisfied with that. He wanted to be the man on his team who wins the title (or games or series) for it, and there are a couple of examples for it, sometimes for the worse of it.
I don't think that this is the right mindset in team sports, and thus I wouldn't take it as an argument against a player if he lets a teammate take the game over if it's better for the team overall. That said: I don't hold it against any player when he isn't given the MVP award. It's rare that the team's superstar doesn't get it, but at least we've seen Cedric Maxwell, Tony Parker and Andre Iguodala win that award. Does it mean that the alleged true superstar of that team (Bird, Duncan, Curry) was bad? One can argue about that. One might consider that one player has the chance to shine when the opponent team concentrates on the arguably bigger threat to them. That's why it was quite easy for Shaq's teammates in his prime as he got so much gravity, and the Spurs might have fared better with Duncan concentrating on defense. While Maxwell had a great series, Bird had it quite rough in the 1981 Finals but he was rebounding out of his mind. A true Kobe fan might be reminded of a certain game in the 2010 Finals as that's often an argument why Kobe was the right Finals MVP and not Gasol back then...

[Marrrcuss]

Its not the be all and all, but i think at least one finals, you need to have taken over. Thats just how i feel about it.

At least one time when the lights are brightest, you need to have been a cut above if youve been to more than 1 finals.

If that's a reason, then Duncan already had his Finals MVP trophies, so why care about another one when obviously the team winning is more important for you?

With Kobe we've seen that he wasn't satisfied with that. He wanted to be the man on his team who wins the title (or games or series) for it, and there are a couple of examples for it, sometimes for the worse of it.
I don't think that this is the right mindset in team sports, and thus I wouldn't take it as an argument against a player if he lets a teammate take the game over if it's better for the team overall. That said: I don't hold it against any player when he isn't given the MVP award. It's rare that the team's superstar doesn't get it, but at least we've seen Cedric Maxwell, Tony Parker and Andre Iguodala win that award. Does it mean that the alleged true superstar of that team (Bird, Duncan, Curry) was bad? One can argue about that. One might consider that one player has the chance to shine when the opponent team concentrates on the arguably bigger threat to them. That's why it was quite easy for Shaq's teammates in his prime as he got so much gravity, and the Spurs might have fared better with Duncan concentrating on defense. While Maxwell had a great series, Bird had it quite rough in the 1981 Finals but he was rebounding out of his mind. A true Kobe fan might be reminded of a certain game in the 2010 Finals as that's often an argument why Kobe was the right Finals MVP and not Gasol back then...

I wasnt using that for the Timmy Vs Kobe comparison. I just think Kobe was better, period. I think Kobe normally went out fighting where timmy had those times where his shoulders would slump and it seemed like he went out with a wimper.

[Masigond]

I wasnt using that for the Timmy Vs Kobe comparison. I just think Kobe was better, period. I think Kobe normally went out fighting where timmy had those times where his shoulders would slump and it seemed like he went out with a wimper.

It was another user's argument already mentioned in this thread, and it's often an argument for Kobe's ranking, that's why I pointed it out.

And by the way: I think Duncan was better, also period. If there were a true indisputable measurement for one player objectively seen better than another, we wouldn't have these discussions. So one might take one thing into account, the other doesn't.

[Marrrcuss]

I wasnt using that for the Timmy Vs Kobe comparison. I just think Kobe was better, period. I think Kobe normally went out fighting where timmy had those times where his shoulders would slump and it seemed like he went out with a wimper.

It was another user's argument already mentioned in this thread, and it's often an argument for Kobe's ranking, that's why I pointed it out.

And by the way: I think Duncan was better, also period. If there were a true indisputable measurement for one player objectively seen better than another, we wouldn't have these discussions. So one might take one thing into account, the other doesn't.

A bro, im not mad and i actually think big men have a much larger effect on the game but lil guys get the nod with style points. Its just that people wont admit that its style points that they like, lol