The Real Problem -- Lack of a True Point Guard

[Triple7]

I personally think there is a decent chance the Celtics might end up with De'Aaron Fox. I'm not in love with the player but I think there is a chance.

If I was the Kings front office I would look to move Fox, Bagley, Hield and Barnes for as much of a rebuilding package as I could get and start building the team around Haliburton and Mitchell. Kings are going nowhere.

Yeah, this is the kind of big swing that might actually be available - and one that wouldn't cost Jaylen.

I'm pretty lukewarm on him -- it's a lot of upside and downside potential with that salary. But he's probably tradeable again for good value so it's intriguing. Problem is you can't play him and Smart together at all.

You can’t play Smart with any player, especially to end games.

[Jammer]

I'm going to disagree with the whole premise here. (And with Cousy as well, who famously thought that Chauncey Billups would never be a championship PG.)

The Celtics are currently being coached to a Popovich/.5 system. No one distributor should or can control that.

And by the way, no recent repeat champion has been built around that kind of PG. No Phil Jackson team was built that way. That's not Popovich's model. That's not what Steph Curry does. It's not how the Heatles operated.

But it’s the player that this Celtics team needs the most.

[playa-hater]

Yam.

and the chance of Coach, "I don't play young players Ime" starting him would be 0.000000012%

[playa-hater]

We have 3 point guards.

All it takes is good coach to tell them when to stop taking bad shots, take them out when they aren’t playing D, and coach them up….

Why everyone is giving Ime a pass on this and saying “we need a point guard” is sort of baffling.

did you just say everyone??

[playa-hater]

Not sure any PG league wide that is what we need becomes available. Or will be hard to get. Such as Murray or Hali. With where Boston might be drafting (lottery) I would think a talented PG may be there. But is there a single Koolaid drinking poster that believes Ime can/will develop him? Certainly not as a rookie.

[Fencer reregistered]

I'm going to disagree with the whole premise here. (And with Cousy as well, who famously thought that Chauncey Billups would never be a championship PG.)

The Celtics are currently being coached to a Popovich/.5 system. No one distributor should or can control that.

And by the way, no recent repeat champion has been built around that kind of PG. No Phil Jackson team was built that way. That's not Popovich's model. That's not what Steph Curry does. It's not how the Heatles operated.

But it’s the player that this Celtics team needs the most.

The Celtics' 3 best players are 2 natural SFs -- both switchable to other positions on defense -- and a C. Smart is probably their 4th best.

Your assertion is not obviously correct.

[Parliament10]

Agreed. We need a Starter Quality PG. -- Until we get one, I would move Pritchard up to Starting PG.
I also think that we need to make some Trades, preferably Mid-season, but at least by the Off-season.

Trade: (In the following order of importance.)
Schröder
Richardson
Hernangómez
(Smart)


Proposed Rotation A, 2021-22:
Starters: Starting PG - Brown - Tatum - Grant - R. Williams
Rotation: Pritchard - Smart - Nesmith - Horford - Kanter
Reserves: XXXX? - Langford - XXXX?/XXXX? - Fernando
Two-Ways: Thomas - Hauser
Stashed: Madar - Begarin


Proposed Rotation B, 2021-22:
Starters: Pritchard - Brown - Tatum - Grant - R. Williams
Rotation: Smart - Langford - Nesmith - Horford - Kanter
Reserves: 3rd PG - 3rd SG - 3rd SF - 3rd PF - Fernando
Two-Ways: Thomas - Hauser
Stashed: Madar - Begarin

[Fencer reregistered]

Agreed. We need a Starter Quality PG. -- Until we get one, I would move Pritchard up to Starting PG.
I also think that we need to make some Trades, preferably Mid-season, but at least by the Off-season.

Trade: (In the following order of importance.)
Schröder
Richardson
Hernangómez
(Smart)


Proposed Rotation A, 2021-22:
Starters: Starting PG - Brown - Tatum - Grant - R. Williams
Rotation: Pritchard - Smart - Nesmith - Horford - Kanter
Reserves: XXXX? - Langford - XXXX?/XXXX? - Fernando
Two-Ways: Thomas - Hauser
Stashed: Madar - Begarin


Proposed Rotation B, 2021-22:
Starters: Pritchard - Brown - Tatum - Grant - R. Williams
Rotation: Smart - Langford - Nesmith - Horford - Kanter
Reserves: 3rd PG - 3rd SG - 3rd SF - 3rd PF - Fernando
Two-Ways: Thomas - Hauser
Stashed: Madar - Begarin

Why are you eager to trade Richardson?

[Larry_Russell]

I am not completely sold that we have to have a PG

Smart has been doing quite well when he actually is at the PG spot as opposed to player SG beside Schroder

Yeah, he is shooting poorly, but when he is the PG he focuses far more on driving the lane (and he is finishing) and moving the ball. Cannot really complain about that when you have a team with 2 25+ppg scorers and a center who loves to move the ball.

I believe we are far better served with a wing who can shoot and pass. McColum, Hayward, BRogdon would be perfect.

Come on man! I know you really love Smart. It shows because i haven’t seen you include Smart in any of your trade scenarios lol. Seriously, Smart have been our weakness at the last 2mins of a close game, that other teams constantly takes advantage. His lack of shooting really kills us, apart from really head scratching decisions he’s made as a point guard. We are better off having a player inside that can shoot and score to finish games. We need a true point guard if we can find one, or get a decent shooting point guard. Smart should just go or be a 6th man. That should be his role.

I dont disagree with you.

But again, right now the biggest issue is shooting.

And without trading a jay I dont think its possible to find a better pg than smart

[Larry_Russell]

Also, imo, richardson is a capable point guard.

So there is that.

His best season ever was in Miami when he was the defacto PG.

[celtxman]

With the Celtics situation trades are tough. You can't keep Horford and Smart and add another salary. So you either keep the PG situation, get a cheaper option, or trade Smart and/or Horford. Personally I would like to add Malcolm Brogdon and subtract Marcus Smart. But that would require a third team as if Indiana was dumping salaries Smart isn't an option. They could be interested in the Horford contract, but it would be easier for them to get an expiring contract and how do you replace Horford?

[Larry_Russell]

With the Celtics situation trades are tough. You can't keep Horford and Smart and add another salary. So you either keep the PG situation, get a cheaper option, or trade Smart and/or Horford. Personally I would like to add Malcolm Brogdon and subtract Marcus Smart. But that would require a third team as if Indiana was dumping salaries Smart isn't an option. They could be interested in the Horford contract, but it would be easier for them to get an expiring contract and how do you replace Horford?

RE Brogdon, it would also include either a CBA rule change or a wait till the offseason.

The only really logical step to make this season is to acquire a shooter to start at the sg-sf spot that only costs a combination of Schroder/Horford/Romeo/Nesmith/2nds/Juancho.

Or if the plan is to wait on the offseason then just move Horford to the bench, which also would help.

JRich is hitting ~ 0% from 3 this year and would be an immediate improvement to spacing to Als less <30%


Smart
Jrich
Brown
Tatum
Williams


Bench
Schroder (Gross)
Romeo
Nesmith
GrantW
Horford


Pretty solid 1-8 then rely on ?marks with Romeo, Pritch and Nesmith. But I am ok with giving them run as they are a key component to the celtics future one way or another.

[ddb]

With the Celtics situation trades are tough. You can't keep Horford and Smart and add another salary. So you either keep the PG situation, get a cheaper option, or trade Smart and/or Horford. Personally I would like to add Malcolm Brogdon and subtract Marcus Smart. But that would require a third team as if Indiana was dumping salaries Smart isn't an option. They could be interested in the Horford contract, but it would be easier for them to get an expiring contract and how do you replace Horford?

RE Brogdon, it would also include either a CBA rule change or a wait till the offseason.

The only really logical step to make this season is to acquire a shooter to start at the sg-sf spot that only costs a combination of Schroder/Horford/Romeo/Nesmith/2nds/Juancho.

Or if the plan is to wait on the offseason then just move Horford to the bench, which also would help.

JRich is hitting ~ 0% from 3 this year and would be an immediate improvement to spacing to Als less <30%


Smart
Jrich
Brown
Tatum
Williams


Bench
Schroder (Gross)
Romeo
Nesmith
GrantW
Horford


Pretty solid 1-8 then rely on ?marks with Romeo, Pritch and Nesmith. But I am ok with giving them run as they are a key component to the celtics future one way or another.

With the roster as-is I agree with this, mostly.

Smart-JRich-Brown-Tatum-Timeord
Pritchard-Schroder-Romeo-Grant-Horford.....Sorry Nesmith but I haven't seen him do anything good yet this season. Very disappointing.

All a moot point though, as I'm pretty confident Stevens is going to rework the team a bit outside of Tatum/Brown

[Larry_Russell]

With the Celtics situation trades are tough. You can't keep Horford and Smart and add another salary. So you either keep the PG situation, get a cheaper option, or trade Smart and/or Horford. Personally I would like to add Malcolm Brogdon and subtract Marcus Smart. But that would require a third team as if Indiana was dumping salaries Smart isn't an option. They could be interested in the Horford contract, but it would be easier for them to get an expiring contract and how do you replace Horford?

RE Brogdon, it would also include either a CBA rule change or a wait till the offseason.

The only really logical step to make this season is to acquire a shooter to start at the sg-sf spot that only costs a combination of Schroder/Horford/Romeo/Nesmith/2nds/Juancho.

Or if the plan is to wait on the offseason then just move Horford to the bench, which also would help.

JRich is hitting ~ 0% from 3 this year and would be an immediate improvement to spacing to Als less <30%


Smart
Jrich
Brown
Tatum
Williams


Bench
Schroder (Gross)
Romeo
Nesmith
GrantW
Horford


Pretty solid 1-8 then rely on ?marks with Romeo, Pritch and Nesmith. But I am ok with giving them run as they are a key component to the celtics future one way or another.

With the roster as-is I agree with this, mostly.

Smart-JRich-Brown-Tatum-Timeord
Pritchard-Schroder-Romeo-Grant-Horford.....Sorry Nesmith but I haven't seen him do anything good yet this season. Very disappointing.

All a moot point though, as I'm pretty confident Stevens is going to rework the team a bit outside of Tatum/Brown

Well, he kind of has to right?

If nothing else at all is done he cannot keep Schroder.

[Jammer]

Well, I do think that Josh Richardson is a better player, and better running the team, than Marcus, but then that would leave the Celtics without a two-way backup wing.

[Triple7]

Also, imo, richardson is a capable point guard.

So there is that.

His best season ever was in Miami when he was the defacto PG.

I would play Josh with the Jays, grant and R.will to finish games. Smart should just be the 6th man, and ride the bench in the closing minutes. Josh and JT can alternate bringing the ball up to finish the game.

[Triple7]

I am not completely sold that we have to have a PG

Smart has been doing quite well when he actually is at the PG spot as opposed to player SG beside Schroder

Yeah, he is shooting poorly, but when he is the PG he focuses far more on driving the lane (and he is finishing) and moving the ball. Cannot really complain about that when you have a team with 2 25+ppg scorers and a center who loves to move the ball.

I believe we are far better served with a wing who can shoot and pass. McColum, Hayward, BRogdon would be perfect.

Come on man! I know you really love Smart. It shows because i haven’t seen you include Smart in any of your trade scenarios lol. Seriously, Smart have been our weakness at the last 2mins of a close game, that other teams constantly takes advantage. His lack of shooting really kills us, apart from really head scratching decisions he’s made as a point guard. We are better off having a player inside that can shoot and score to finish games. We need a true point guard if we can find one, or get a decent shooting point guard. Smart should just go or be a 6th man. That should be his role.

I dont disagree with you.

But again, right now the biggest issue is shooting.

And without trading a jay I dont think its possible to find a better pg than smart

I agree shooting is the biggest issue, that’s why smart needs to ride the bench on closing minutes of a close game.

[Larry_Russell]

Come on man! I know you really love Smart. It shows because i haven’t seen you include Smart in any of your trade scenarios lol. Seriously, Smart have been our weakness at the last 2mins of a close game, that other teams constantly takes advantage. His lack of shooting really kills us, apart from really head scratching decisions he’s made as a point guard. We are better off having a player inside that can shoot and score to finish games. We need a true point guard if we can find one, or get a decent shooting point guard. Smart should just go or be a 6th man. That should be his role.

I dont disagree with you.

But again, right now the biggest issue is shooting.

And without trading a jay I dont think its possible to find a better pg than smart

I agree shooting is the biggest issue, that’s why smart needs to ride the bench on closing minutes of a close game.

Maybe, yeah

Smart shoots Corner threes well enough and has gotten much better at driving to the rim and finishing so it might be ok.

But SChroder and Horford AND timelord cannot all be out there.

With a 3rd shooter I think having Smart and TImelord out there for defense will not take away from what the team can do offensively.

[Jammer]

Well, the real problem is poor drafting from 2011 thru 2014. Those four years were disasters, and the two first round picks after Jaylen Brown in 2016 may have been the two worst of all (no wait, Fab Melo in 2012 was the worst). If you were putting together a team of the best 12 players available TO THE CELTICS from 2011 forward, you wouldn't even be able to include any of the Celtics 1rst round picks from 2019 or 2020. That's how much talent was available.

i.e. Best 12 players from draft years 2011 thru 2018 that the Celtics could have drafted:

Center: Nikola Jokic (2014 #41), Rudy Gobert (2013 #27), Robert Williams III (2018 #27) - Celts took James Young, Kelly Olynk & Rob

PF: Jayson Tatum (2017 #3), Jae Crowder (2012 #34) - Celts took Tatum and Jared Sullinger

SF: Jimmy Butler (2011 #30), Khris Middleton (2012 #39) - Celts took Marshon Brooks and Fab Melo

SG: Zach LaVine (2014 #13), Jaylen Brown (2016 #3), Terry Rozier (2015 #16) - Celts took Marcus Smart, Brown and Rozier

PG: Dejounte Murray (2016 #29), Malcolm Brogdan (2016 #36) - Celts took Guershon Yabusele and Ante Zizic

List of Notable players passed on:

Marshon Brooks (2011 #25) was chosen over Jimmy Butler (2011 #30)

Jared Sullinger (2012 #21) & Fab Melo (2012 #22) were chosen over Khris Middleton (2012 #39) and Jae Crowder (2012 #34)

Kelly Olynyk (2013 #13) was chosen over Giannis Antetokounmpo (2013 #15) and Rudy Gobert (2013 #27)

Marcus Smart (2014 #6) and James Young (2014 #17) were chosen over:
Julius Randle - 2014 #7
Zach LaVine - 2014 #13
Jusuf Nurkic - 2014 #16
Clint Capela - 2014 #25
Bogdan Bogdanovic - 2014 #27
Joe Harris - 2014 #33
Spencer Dinwiddie - 2014 #38
Jerami Grant - 2014 #39
Nikola Jokic - 2014 #41
Jordan Clarkson - 2014 #46

R.J. Hunter (2015 #28) was chosen over:
Cedi Osman - 2015 #31
Norman Powell - 2015 #46

Guerschon Yabusele (2016 #16) & Ante Zizic (2016 #23) were chosen over:
Caris LeVert - 2016 #20
Pascal Siakam - 2016 #27
Dejounte Murray - 2016 #29
Ivica Zubac - 2016 # 32
Malcolm Brogdan - 2016 #36

[druggas]

I'm going to disagree with the whole premise here. (And with Cousy as well, who famously thought that Chauncey Billups would never be a championship PG.)

The Celtics are currently being coached to a Popovich/.5 system. No one distributor should or can control that.

And by the way, no recent repeat champion has been built around that kind of PG. No Phil Jackson team was built that way. That's not Popovich's model. That's not what Steph Curry does. It's not how the Heatles operated.

Not recent, but Magic Johnson says "Hi". And don't tell me CP3 wouldn't have been a huge upgrade and probably carried the Celts to at least the championship game.