PG: RJ Tells Chanel: “Hold My Beer” while Randle Hangs Up His Spurs

[K_ick_God]

I get what people are saying when RJ can't create shots well....But watch him play and he gets so many good looks within the flow of the offense. During the rough stretch, he was missing so many bunnies and open looks. That's not good, but that he was able to get so many good looks was a great sign. Now that they are going down its making a huge difference. He does get blocked a lot, but gets a ton of buckets at the rim when its all said and done which is a very good skill. He just knows where to be and how to move on the floor. He's just not flashy in the way he does it either. Not gonna be crossing people over or creating a ton of space off fadeaway step backs...but he gets a step and has the defender on his hip, and he is able to get a good look.

As much as this SOUNDS very bad at first glance, shot-making abilities 1 on 1 are overrated and can even be a double-edged sword. Randle is better at it than RJ and may always be better but so what. Melo was good at it. Was he better at it than LeBron? Yeah for much of his career he was actually, but it didn't make Melo better than Bron at any point (I don't think RJ is as good a flow or basketball player as LeBron, disclaimer). Paul Pierce could create shots but also was more of a get his in the flow type of guy. A very good shot creator but not elite.

I'm just saying, it's something that gets a bit too much attention.

A guy can fall in love with that and then the rest of his team suffers.

I think, as is the case for any playtype, it depends on efficiency and the gravity that you have in that play.

Melo at least hit a respectable baseline of efficiency, and he had considerable gravity as an ISO scorer which led to open shots (which were higher efficiency shots than the ISO itself, but still came as a result of the ISO).

And that's the issue with Randle. Defenses overreacted last year by sending hard doubles that were completely unnecessary. The league figured that out after the Hawks series. So now he neither reaches the baseline of efficiency, nor does he have any (real) gravity (a little but it's largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things).

Most great players are dominant ISO scorers. Not all of them, but most of them, including some of the most unselfish superstars like Curry or Jokic.

Yeah and RJ may not be a great player. Not that many 2nd and 3rd scorers are great, unless you have a team that is heading deep into the playoffs. Maybe he can touch greatness a little and be a special 2nd and 3rd guy, but there's no sign that he's great. We agree on that.

The efficiency and gravity questions are really good. You've framed it the right way IMO. But I'm not sure the Melo type of gravity wins a title. I don't know what separted PP and Melo exactly -- I'm not sure you can find a stat and circle it. I think Pierce made more creative use of his gravity. I'm not speaking as a Knicks fan now but I really think PP v. Melo tells a lot. Pierce was better.

[K_ick_God]

As long as we are going there, I think Bosh was also just a better player than Melo. Reality of the situation. Bosh wasn't as good a 1 on 1 scorer I suppose. But he was a more impactful player.

[Oscirus]

I get what people are saying when RJ can't create shots well....But watch him play and he gets so many good looks within the flow of the offense. During the rough stretch, he was missing so many bunnies and open looks. That's not good, but that he was able to get so many good looks was a great sign. Now that they are going down its making a huge difference. He does get blocked a lot, but gets a ton of buckets at the rim when its all said and done which is a very good skill. He just knows where to be and how to move on the floor. He's just not flashy in the way he does it either. Not gonna be crossing people over or creating a ton of space off fadeaway step backs...but he gets a step and has the defender on his hip, and he is able to get a good look.

As much as this SOUNDS very bad at first glance, shot-making abilities 1 on 1 are overrated and can even be a double-edged sword. Randle is better at it than RJ and may always be better but so what. Melo was good at it. Was he better at it than LeBron? Yeah for much of his career he was actually, but it didn't make Melo better than Bron at any point (I don't think RJ is as good a flow or basketball player as LeBron, disclaimer). Paul Pierce could create shots but also was more of a get his in the flow type of guy. A very good shot creator but not elite.

I'm just saying, it's something that gets a bit too much attention.

A guy can fall in love with that and then the rest of his team suffers.

I think, as is the case for any playtype, it depends on efficiency and the gravity that you have in that play.

Melo at least hit a respectable baseline of efficiency, and he had considerable gravity as an ISO scorer which led to open shots (which were higher efficiency shots than the ISO itself, but still came as a result of the ISO).

And that's the issue with Randle. Defenses overreacted last year by sending hard doubles that were completely unnecessary. The league figured that out after the Hawks series. So now he neither reaches the baseline of efficiency, nor does he have any real gravity (a little but it's largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things).

Most great players are dominant ISO scorers. Not all of them, but most of them, including some of the most unselfish superstars like Curry or Jokic.

I was wondering why randles assists dropped so hard off the face of the earth with a better offensive team, but that explains it.

[Chanel Bomber]

I just think RJ is a bit streaky and as NDOS pointed out...we are running more of the offense through RJ now.

Before when RJ had an off shooting game he just had a bad game because he was relegated to more C&S. For example the OKC game he was 1-8 from 3 and shot like crap from outside but was 9-12 inside the arc because he got more chances to attack.

I don't have the numbers but my guess during this stretch RJ has gotten a lot more P&R opportunities then he did early in the year.

I think it's actually the opposite.

His saving grace last year was his C&S 3-point shooting, particularly on open 3s.

He would fail whenever he had the ball in his hands and created.

I'm not saying that things can't evolve though.

Him becoming more efficient as a PNR ball-handler would change the outlook of this team completely. Let's hope it sustains as the games accumulate.

He was scoring .79 ppp as the PnR ball handler last season, the problem is he only got 5 possessions a game with the play, and in he playoffs that actually jumped to 1.07ppp, but the possessions were cut in half. This year he's at .81, but only 4 possessions per game, for reference Bradley Beal is at .83 and Darius Garland is at .88 but with more possessions. As a wing, RJ should be getting a lot more opportunities with the play since it's something the numbers say he may be good at, but dumbass Thibs doesn't do analytics.

Do they?

I don't think the numbers say that at all. At best the eye test does, if one sees the glass half-full (not saying it's completely unreasonable but I think he's only shown signs of improvement the past couple of weeks).

If RJ's efficiency rises, he'll probably see more opportunities as a PNR ball-handler. He should, at the very least. But you never know with Thibs.

Seeing Garland so low comes as a surprise (he's mostly been brilliant in isolation). I'm not a huge fan of Bradley Beal so there's that.

[blueNorange]

rj's recent success is also randle not clogging up the paint.

too many times rj would drive to the rim with robinson, randle, and opposing teams bigs ... that's 4 guys in the paint, that's pretty hard to do.

[god shammgod]

i don't want to hate on rj, i hope this is a turn around. seriously. but i'm not sure half a season counts as just a slow start because it's, you know, half the season. and most of his games like this seem to come against bad teams missing players. this was the easiest part of the schedule made easier by covid. but as i said last time i spoke about him, his 3 point shot seems to be coming around lately so that's a good sign that he'll at least be a productive player for us.

I think someone pointed out it was more like 10-15 bad game stretch. He started off well, then had that horrendous stretch, now has been playing better again.

Still, dont want to see that kind of stretch and he needs to be more consistent.

he shot 40/33 for december and 36/29 for november. just 10-15 games don't skew the numbers like that.

[Chanel Bomber]

As long as we are going there, I think Bosh was also just a better player than Melo. Reality of the situation. Bosh wasn't as good a 1 on 1 scorer I suppose. But he was a more impactful player.

Depends on role I guess.

As your #1 option, Melo was significantly better than Bosh.

But replace Bosh with Melo as a third option, fill the gaps, swiss-army-knife type player, and you're probably worse off.

I view Melo as a better first option than Bosh. Bosh as a better third option than Melo.

[K_ick_God]

It could be that RJ is not that efficient, not that gravitational (?) and doesn't have a lot of escape velocity ... the last two things being somewhat overlapping ... and he'll still be good. There are exceptions and special players and guys who break the mold some. I feel like RJ understands the game and is fearless. Obviously he'll also need to do certain things and they'll have to show up in the stats, it's not simply wishing on a star, but I do think the comparisons between Randle and RJ will break down eventually.

RJ has a much higher IQ for the game.

Since melo has not joined the RJ backing, I want to point out that he also said Hunter and Reddish are better. I think it's fair to point out previous statements for impeachment purposes.

[K_ick_God]

As long as we are going there, I think Bosh was also just a better player than Melo. Reality of the situation. Bosh wasn't as good a 1 on 1 scorer I suppose. But he was a more impactful player.

Depends on role I guess.

As your #1 option, Melo was significantly better than Bosh.

But replace Bosh with Melo as a third option, fill the gaps, swiss-army-knife type player, and you're probably worse off.

I view Melo as a better first option than Bosh. Bosh as a better third option than Melo.

Melo much better than Randle full stop. And Melo got dealt some bad hands. But there are some things I think are similar - like not having the interest in downsizing his game or having the ability to fill in blanks and pay attention to things like loose balls. Being able to become a third like Bosh did, says something no? Would Melo have been able to do that? Maybe. Not sure. I have some doubt.

It's pretty impressive to me that Bosh was able to function as he did. After being a clear lead scorer. Pierce also became part of a great team pretty much overnight.

In fairness to Melo, he never had that kind of roster. But you have to look at a player's ability to become more of a role player as something that speaks highly of that player's game. I feel like RJ is more Pierce/Bosh on this count than Melo. But he's not as talented as those guys.

[NoDopeOnSundays]

I think it's actually the opposite.

His saving grace last year was his C&S 3-point shooting, particularly on open 3s.

He would fail whenever he had the ball in his hands and created.

I'm not saying that things can't evolve though.

Him becoming more efficient as a PNR ball-handler would change the outlook of this team completely. Let's hope it sustains as the games accumulate.

He was scoring .79 ppp as the PnR ball handler last season, the problem is he only got 5 possessions a game with the play, and in he playoffs that actually jumped to 1.07ppp, but the possessions were cut in half. This year he's at .81, but only 4 possessions per game, for reference Bradley Beal is at .83 and Darius Garland is at .88 but with more possessions. As a wing, RJ should be getting a lot more opportunities with the play since it's something the numbers say he may be good at, but dumbass Thibs doesn't do analytics.

Do they?

I don't think the numbers say that at all. At best the eye test does, if one sees the glass half-full (not saying it's completely unreasonable but I think he's only shown signs of improvement the past couple of weeks).

If RJ's efficiency rises, he'll probably see more opportunities as a PNR ball-handler. He should, at the very least. But you never know with Thibs.

Seeing Garland so low comes as a surprise (he's mostly been brilliant in isolation). I'm not a huge fan of Bradley Beal so there's that.

He ranks ahead of Anthony Edwards running the play, and he's playing with the best shooting C ever. The eye test can't tell the whole story though, RJ shouldn't be a primary ball handler, but he should definitely be getting a healthy staple of PnR chances to grow with the play. None of the really young guys outside of Donovan Mitchell (94th) and Tyrese Maxey (84th) are killing it in the PnR, LaMelo is in the 60th percentile, Herro is 50th, JA is 72nd, Garland is 60th, Beal 49th, RJ 47th.

Believe it or not, Rowan is actually in a higher percentile than Harden this year

[K_ick_God]

As long as we are going there, I think Bosh was also just a better player than Melo. Reality of the situation. Bosh wasn't as good a 1 on 1 scorer I suppose. But he was a more impactful player.

Depends on role I guess.

As your #1 option, Melo was significantly better than Bosh.

But replace Bosh with Melo as a third option, fill the gaps, swiss-army-knife type player, and you're probably worse off.

I view Melo as a better first option than Bosh. Bosh as a better third option than Melo.

I wonder about whether Melo was a clearly better 1 than Bosh. Bosh was pretty damn good at it. So I'm not agreeing with you on that really.

[Deeeez Knicks]

i don't want to hate on rj, i hope this is a turn around. seriously. but i'm not sure half a season counts as just a slow start because it's, you know, half the season. and most of his games like this seem to come against bad teams missing players. this was the easiest part of the schedule made easier by covid. but as i said last time i spoke about him, his 3 point shot seems to be coming around lately so that's a good sign that he'll at least be a productive player for us.

I think someone pointed out it was more like 10-15 bad game stretch. He started off well, then had that horrendous stretch, now has been playing better again.

Still, dont want to see that kind of stretch and he needs to be more consistent.

he shot 40/33 for december and 36/29 for november. just 10-15 games don't skew the numbers like that.

Here was the post. You probably could skew the numbers where its more like 15-20 games. But that also not half the season either

1st 9 games: 19.2 ppg on .474 FG% and .400 3P%
Next 10 games: 10.2 ppg on .324 FG% and .235 3P%
Next 13 games: 19.6 ppg on .428 FG% and .385 3P%

[Chanel Bomber]

As much as this SOUNDS very bad at first glance, shot-making abilities 1 on 1 are overrated and can even be a double-edged sword. Randle is better at it than RJ and may always be better but so what. Melo was good at it. Was he better at it than LeBron? Yeah for much of his career he was actually, but it didn't make Melo better than Bron at any point (I don't think RJ is as good a flow or basketball player as LeBron, disclaimer). Paul Pierce could create shots but also was more of a get his in the flow type of guy. A very good shot creator but not elite.

I'm just saying, it's something that gets a bit too much attention.

A guy can fall in love with that and then the rest of his team suffers.

I think, as is the case for any playtype, it depends on efficiency and the gravity that you have in that play.

Melo at least hit a respectable baseline of efficiency, and he had considerable gravity as an ISO scorer which led to open shots (which were higher efficiency shots than the ISO itself, but still came as a result of the ISO).

And that's the issue with Randle. Defenses overreacted last year by sending hard doubles that were completely unnecessary. The league figured that out after the Hawks series. So now he neither reaches the baseline of efficiency, nor does he have any (real) gravity (a little but it's largely inconsequential in the grand scheme of things).

Most great players are dominant ISO scorers. Not all of them, but most of them, including some of the most unselfish superstars like Curry or Jokic.

Yeah and RJ may not be a great player. Not that many 2nd and 3rd scorers are great, unless you have a team that is heading deep into the playoffs. Maybe he can touch greatness a little and be a special 2nd and 3rd guy, but there's no sign that he's great. We agree on that.

The efficiency and gravity questions are really good. You've framed it the right way IMO. But I'm not sure the Melo type of gravity wins a title. I don't know what separted PP and Melo exactly -- I'm not sure you can find a stat and circle it. I think Pierce made more creative use of his gravity. I'm not speaking as a Knicks fan now but I really think PP v. Melo tells a lot. Pierce was better.

I don't know if Pierce was better. It's a cool debate.

I think they were both incredible players, who belonged in the same tier. I think Pierce simply had more help than Melo in the second part of his career, so he played more significant basketball that we can remember.

Melo had a little more gravity than Pierce (I think), but Pierce was a better team defender and a much, much better leader.

I think you could contend with Melo if you put the right pieces around him. Not the easiest guy to build around, but the 2008-09 Nuggets and the 2012-13 Knicks showed that you can go pretty far with him with a 2011 Mavs-type of supporting cast around him.

Re: RJ. For me it doesn't matter if he never becomes a great player. I just hope for his sake and for the Knicks sake that he finds a role that suits him and where he can be efficient and a positive contributor. Whether as a star player (which seems like a long shot but you never know), or a role player.

I'd rather he becomes a good role player than a bad star player (my Horry/Cousins equation).

[K_ick_God]

... Bosh also made smart plays and knew where and when to be places. He was also clutch and played excellent D when it mattered. To me, and I know it's sacrilege but truth matters, Bosh was a much better player than Melo (runs and hides). Just how I see it though.

[god shammgod]

nah. miami wins more probably with melo instead of bosh. it would be too much offensive fire power for teams to deal with.

[Chanel Bomber]

As long as we are going there, I think Bosh was also just a better player than Melo. Reality of the situation. Bosh wasn't as good a 1 on 1 scorer I suppose. But he was a more impactful player.

Depends on role I guess.

As your #1 option, Melo was significantly better than Bosh.

But replace Bosh with Melo as a third option, fill the gaps, swiss-army-knife type player, and you're probably worse off.

I view Melo as a better first option than Bosh. Bosh as a better third option than Melo.

I wonder about whether Melo was a clearly better 1 than Bosh. Bosh was pretty damn good at it. So I'm not agreeing with you on that really.

Bosh's Toronto teams were first-round fodder in the weak East, when they even just made the playoffs.

Melo made the playoffs every year in Denver since his rookie seaosn, back when 50 wins didn't guarantee you a playoff spot. Only one deep run, but my point stands.

[Oscirus]

nah. miami wins more probably with melo instead of bosh. it would be too much offensive fire power for teams to deal with.

Perhaps a few more points, but that defense though esp without any dec role players in the beginning years

[whocares1]

So if theres a good perimeter defender on him and a legit rim protector down low, he'll struggle, like 95 percent of the league would in that situation? Pretty soon people gonna be blaming him for not hitting shots where he's fouled as well.

Bro we are not talking about RJ this much because he’s supposed to be a role player. Does RJ have a quick first step? Can he create easy scoring opportunities for himself consistently? Does he draw double team coverage against good teams? Answer those questions and then get back to me. Because if the answer to all of that is no then why do we waste our time talking about him. You guys love to say we focus on the bad but stars are consistently good for a reason.

The answer to the first is yes, the second question is ridiculous because everybody knows he's slow so you're clearly walking into this hating him and the third question, isnt this supposed to be randles team? You're clearly trying to stack the deck against rj to justify your dislike against him. Its fine to dislike him, just quit creating reasons out of thin air to hate on him.

Its almost as if people dont understand the concept of player development and that not all players are all stars/ franchise players in year 3.

Okay keep waiting on him to be great I guess.

[K_ick_God]

nah. miami wins more probably with melo instead of bosh. it would be too much offensive fire power for teams to deal with.

Not sure about that. Besides positional overlap with Miami, Bosh also played D. He'd come up with big blocks at big times. He worked off the two main guys well. Melo wouldn't exactly have failed either though, so not going too far with it. Melo obviously was good enough to win titles if he had a stacked roster around him and somehow downsized/blended a little.

[knickstape4ever]

Wakey Wakey

Game tonight

Time to Make a Game Thread

I gotchu