Tank World Order (7.0)

[VanWest82]

Which teams this year are contending, not pretending like pre-Kawhi Raptors supposedly were, with the guys they tanked to draft?

Warriors (Curry)
Suns? I guess they technically count though as we just saw Chris Paul has a lot to do with that.
...
Think that's it.

Edit: should amend this to say multi-year tank because we already did tank for Scottie which supposedly isn't enough tanking

[canada_dry]

Team is limiting it's ceiling.

A 5-8 team with little room to improve unless they strike it lucky.

Why? We're one of the youngest teams in the league. Where the heck do u get "little room to improve " from?

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Fred and Siakam are 28, this is basically their prime. They are eating up most of our cap and if Fred keeps stad padding he's gonna get a near max and take up a bigger portion of the cap. Not a lot of room to improve if 70 percent of your cap is stuck to Fred and Siakam.

1. Theres so so so many ways around that lol. Noones stuck. We are very flexible atm.

2. 28 isn't old. The other pieces are also young af.

3. Regardless of all that ...how about all the internal growth that being one of the youngest teams in the league entails? In a couple years the same guys are gonna be posting "man i didn't see " player xyz " improving so much. Its raised the ceiling of this team " of course u didn't see it coming lol. U never do.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[canada_dry]

Why? We're one of the youngest teams in the league. Where the heck do u get "little room to improve " from?

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Fred and Siakam are 28, this is basically their prime. They are eating up most of our cap and if Fred keeps stad padding he's gonna get a near max and take up a bigger portion of the cap. Not a lot of room to improve if 70 percent of your cap is stuck to Fred and Siakam.

Fred is stat padding now? You cant be serious man.

Hes very serious

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

[ATLTimekeeper]

How is that relevant to your first point where you basically combined the Deng era Bulls and Rose era bulls to make a point?

Even with that you're wrong.

They went to the ECF's and then the very next year rose has that injury in the first round, and they lose to the sixers. Had he not got hurt they would have went farther. Even after Rose had that injury they went on to get to the conference semi finals two more times (at this point Rose wasn't the same so I never thought they would get far but I point it out since you didn't even get the facts right).


Also again, this is deflection because my original comparison of building a team around B level players like Deng, Hinrich, Gordan to this core of Fred and Siakam and it not working out is true.

I don't see why you're trying to argue that a team with multiple lotto picks that they tanked for was a bad idea.

Where am I doing that? Again with the deflections.

So you're saying the Bulls were correct to build around Deng, Hinrich, Gordon? Three guys they tanked for (well, bought the Deng pick, but much tanking was involved up to that point). Maybe we're confused because you chose muddy examples to thread this needle

Like, what is your argument here?

[720]

Why? We're one of the youngest teams in the league. Where the heck do u get "little room to improve " from?

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Fred and Siakam are 28, this is basically their prime. They are eating up most of our cap and if Fred keeps stad padding he's gonna get a near max and take up a bigger portion of the cap. Not a lot of room to improve if 70 percent of your cap is stuck to Fred and Siakam.

1. Theres so so so many ways around that lol. Noones stuck. We are very flexible atm.

2. 28 isn't old. The other pieces are also young af.

3. Regardless of all that ...how about all the internal growth that being one of the youngest teams in the league entails? In a couple years the same guys are gonna be posting "man i didn't see " player xyz " improving so much. Its raised the ceiling of this team " of course u didn't see it coming lol. U never do.

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

Fair point, and I totally think that's happening. That's not in question. Barnes, OG, Precious, Gary, they're all getting better (although Gary is only with us for one more year guaranteed, until he signs his extension I'm gonna be hesitant to include him into the young core).

I just don't think having your whole team centered around a 28 year old (Fred turns 28 next month), undersized point guard and have him take 20 plus shots a game as healthy roster construction. He's better as the third/fourth option and paying him the max or near max next offseason basically tells him he's that 1st or 2nd option.

No one is going to convince me otherwise. If he proves me wrong I'll literally be the first to call myself out and admit I was wrong. But I just don't see it happening.

[720]

I don't see why you're trying to argue that a team with multiple lotto picks that they tanked for was a bad idea.

Where am I doing that? Again with the deflections.

So you're saying the Bulls were correct to build around Deng, Hinrich, Gordon? Three guys they tanked for (well, bought the Deng pick, but much tanking was involved up to that point). Maybe we're confused because you chose muddy examples to thread this needle

Like, what is your argument here?

I didn't muddy this up by bringing up the rose bulls into this convo.

Also, I am for building around A level players. I am not for building around just anyone you draft (Hinrich, Deng, Gordan, etc). When has that ever been anyone's point that posts in this thread? The reason we want high level picks is to have a higher chance at A level players. If we drafted Hinrich for example (someone that's a solid role player in this prime) and forced him into a bigger role I would be voicing the same concerns.

I think you know this but choose to act ignorant.

[Los_29]

Saying Fred was stat padding is easily one of the worst takes I've ever seen on this forum. Funnily enough the majority of the bad takes I have seen have come from this very thread. I'm holding out hope that he's just actually doing some high level trolling here and isn't actually serious.

[Fairview4Life]

Also, I am for building around A level players.

Who are A level players? Would you consider Scottie Barnes an A level player? Why is Scottie Barnes an A level player but Luol Deng wasn't when he was drafted? Cade Cunningham? Jalen Green? Why or why not?

[ATLTimekeeper]

I didn't muddy this up by bringing up the rose bulls into this convo.

Also, I am for building around A level players. I am not for building around just anyone you draft (Hinrich, Deng, Gordan, etc). When has that ever been anyone's point that posts in this thread. The reason we want high level picks is to have a higher chance at A level players.

I think you know this but choose to act ignorant.

And you were reminded that even landing A level players mostly results in teams fizzling out, just like the Deng Bulls, the Joe Johnson Hawks, the Nash Suns, whatever you want. Your argument, then, is that they tank in perpetuity until they land an A level player. And in that case it makes way more sense to bargain for one in the trade market.

[720]

Also, I am for building around A level players.

Who are A level players? Would you consider Scottie Barnes an A level player? Why is Scottie Barnes an A level player but Luol Deng wasn't when he was drafted? Cade Cunningham? Jalen Green? Why or why not?

Obviously teams don't know what they got until they see sample size. Regarding Deng, Gordan and Hinrich, they had that sample size (similar to how we have a sample size for Fred). Fred and Siakam are about to turn 28 in a couple months. They are what they are. We're about to pay Fred a near max next offseason because we treat him like he's an A level player.

As for Scottie he's definitely an A level prospect is he not? Does he not have the potential to be an A level player one day? I thank the basketball gods for giving us such a gift.

[720]

I didn't muddy this up by bringing up the rose bulls into this convo.

Also, I am for building around A level players. I am not for building around just anyone you draft (Hinrich, Deng, Gordan, etc). When has that ever been anyone's point that posts in this thread. The reason we want high level picks is to have a higher chance at A level players.

I think you know this but choose to act ignorant.

And you were reminded that even landing A level players mostly results in teams fizzling out, just like the Deng Bulls, the Joe Johnson Hawks, the Nash Suns, whatever you want. Your argument, then, is that they tank in perpetuity until they land an A level player. And in that case it makes way more sense to bargain for one in the trade market.

When did I say an A level player guarantees a championship? They just give you an much better chance. Ideally you should have two A level players on the roster to increase the odds, but overall as a whole building around B level players has literally never resulted in a championship this century.

I would argue even for that 04 Pistons team Ben Wallace was an A level player just because of his defense alone.

[Fairview4Life]

Also, I am for building around A level players.

Who are A level players? Would you consider Scottie Barnes an A level player? Why is Scottie Barnes an A level player but Luol Deng wasn't when he was drafted? Cade Cunningham? Jalen Green? Why or why not?

Obviously teams don't know what they got until they see sample size. Regarding Deng, Gordan and Hinrich, they had that sample size (similar to how we have a sample size for Fred). Fred and Siakam are about to turn 28 in a couple months. They are what they are. We're about to pay Fred a near max next offseason because we treat him like he's an A level player.

As for Scottie he's definitely an A level prospect is he not? Does he not have the potential to be an A level player one day? I thank the basketball gods for giving us such a gift.

I love Scottie. Deng was just as young and pretty similar to Scottie when he was drafted. They also kept him on the team with Rose. You don't need to jettison your good players to try and get great ones.

[720]

Who are A level players? Would you consider Scottie Barnes an A level player? Why is Scottie Barnes an A level player but Luol Deng wasn't when he was drafted? Cade Cunningham? Jalen Green? Why or why not?

Obviously teams don't know what they got until they see sample size. Regarding Deng, Gordan and Hinrich, they had that sample size (similar to how we have a sample size for Fred). Fred and Siakam are about to turn 28 in a couple months. They are what they are. We're about to pay Fred a near max next offseason because we treat him like he's an A level player.

As for Scottie he's definitely an A level prospect is he not? Does he not have the potential to be an A level player one day? I thank the basketball gods for giving us such a gift.

I love Scottie. Deng was just as young and pretty similar to Scottie when he was drafted. They also kept him on the team with Rose. You don't need to jettison your good players to try and get great ones.

I agree, which is why I've argued before that keeping Siakam is worthwhile because of how dynamic he is (unless a great deal comes up obviously). My issue is propping up role players like Fred into max level money and tying yourself to that core. I don't want an iso centric undersized point guard jacking up 20+ shots a game. I just don't (liked his old role much better). Hate me for it but that's how I feel. It has never worked before and I doubt it'll work this time.

[ATLTimekeeper]

When did I say an A level player guarantees a championship? They just give you an much better chance. Ideally you should have two A level players on the roster to increase the odds, but overall as a whole building around B level players has literally never resulted in a championship this century.

I would argue even for that 04 Pistons team Ben Wallace was an A level player just because of his defense alone.

We're talking ostensibly about team-building, and it's bad planning to try to build a title winner for the reasons we're both in agreement on. A better chance that results in not a title, is still not a title. So, you have two options:

1) You build as good a team as you can with what you have and look to acquire that A level player via trade/FA.
2) You tank in perpetuity until you get that A level player. We know historically, there are very few of these "A" level players that present themselves as such prior to the draft.

Both paths likely lead to disappointment, but I know that Hawks fans probably liked watching iso Joe more than they did DerMarr Johnson. Nothing prevented those Hawks from making a big move, like the Raptors did by trading DeMar for Kawhi. Or trading Josh Smith, Marvin Williams et al for KG and the pick that became Al Horford for Ray Allen. Just like nothing will actually prevent Masai from making another big trade, if he chooses to go that route. Nothing really prevented Danny Ainge from acquiring Kawhi other than his own fear of what would happen if it failed.

[VanWest82]

I just don't think having your whole team centered around a 28 year old (Fred turns 28 next month), undersized point guard and have him take 20 plus shots a game as healthy roster construction. He's better as the third/fourth option and paying him the max or near max next offseason basically tells him he's that 1st or 2nd option.

Fred is taking 17 shots per game (16 per 36). His attempts are up recently because we've needed that in order to win games, but it's highly unlikely it's a forever thing.

No one is going to convince me otherwise. If he proves me wrong I'll literally be the first to call myself out and admit I was wrong. But I just don't see it happening.

Let's be real and admit that he's already proved you wrong a bunch of times by steadily improving to the level he's at now. Given his continual rate of improvement since entering the league it's likely he has another level to get to as well.

If your new goalpost is that Fred has to win a championship while taking 20+ shots in order to prove you wrong then imo we're now dealing in the fantastical. Raptors are not going to build long-term like that. Short-term? Sure, it makes sense if that's what we need, but our long-term vision is clearly more about developing out an army of skilled, multi-dimensional forwards plus Fred as team leader.

Outside of Siakam, those forwards are not ready to take on larger offensive roles today. They haven't earned that right yet. They will eventually and at that time you'll see Fred back off into a lesser/changed role as the old sage PG who manages the team and hits the big shot when the team needs it.

[720]

When did I say an A level player guarantees a championship? They just give you an much better chance. Ideally you should have two A level players on the roster to increase the odds, but overall as a whole building around B level players has literally never resulted in a championship this century.

I would argue even for that 04 Pistons team Ben Wallace was an A level player just because of his defense alone.

We're talking ostensibly about team-building, and it's bad planning to try to build a title winner for the reasons we're both in agreement on. A better chance that results in not a title, is still not a title. So, you have two options:

1) You build as good a team as you can with what you have and look to acquire that A level player via trade/FA.
2) You tank in perpetuity until you get that A level player. We know historically, there are very few of these "A" level players that present themselves as such prior to the draft.

Both paths likely lead to disappointment, but I know that Hawks fans probably liked watching iso Joe more than they did DerMarr Johnson. Nothing prevented those Hawks from making a big move, like the Raptors did by trading DeMar for Kawhi. Or trading Josh Smith, Marvin Williams et al for KG and the pick that became Al Horford for Ray Allen. Just like nothing will actually prevent Masai from making another big trade, if he chooses to go that route. Nothing really prevented Danny Ainge from acquiring Kawhi other than his own fear of what would happen if it failed.

I think we both agree on the circumstances but not the odds. Which is fine because at least you don't shun away the draft like others.

As for what Hawks fans prefer, I bet most like having Trae Young over Joe Johnson but that's all just opinions. They have something special with Young, they have a solid foundation (the star player). Now they just need to find ways to build around him and add another A level player. They might fail, they might not. But they got the hardest part which is the superstar. Joe Johnson for all that he was imo was never in that conversation Trae is with his contemporaries.

I guess we'll just see what happens. I'm hoping Barnes grows and becomes that player for us and we can add players around him and maybe package Siakam or Fred (maybe both) for something down the line. I was hoping we could add another top 10 pick player this year but Idk about that anymore. This recent stretch may have pushed us out of it.

[Basketball_Jones]

Which teams this year are contending, not pretending like pre-Kawhi Raptors supposedly were, with the guys they tanked to draft?

Warriors (Curry)
Suns? I guess they technically count though as we just saw Chris Paul has a lot to do with that.
...
Think that's it.

Edit: should amend this to say multi-year tank because we already did tank for Scottie which supposedly isn't enough tanking

Bucks and Nets certainly are. They’ll turn it up for the playoffs.

[VanWest82]

Which teams this year are contending, not pretending like pre-Kawhi Raptors supposedly were, with the guys they tanked to draft?

Warriors (Curry)
Suns? I guess they technically count though as we just saw Chris Paul has a lot to do with that.
...
Think that's it.

Edit: should amend this to say multi-year tank because we already did tank for Scottie which supposedly isn't enough tanking

Bucks and Nets certainly are. They’ll turn it up for the playoffs.

Neither of those teams tanked. Bucks drafted Giannis 15th and traded for Jrue and Khris. Nets signed KD and Kyrie, and traded for Harden using mostly future picks and Jarrett Allen was drafted 22nd overall.

[Pooh_Jeter]

No one has ever said there is a singular blueprint for building a team that guarantees a championship. In fact, there are no blueprints to follow at all, each team is built entirely in its own set of circumstances and context. Getting a high draft pick or making a trade for a star isn't an entire team building concept, they are just different methods of building an asset base. No team has ever relied solely on either even the process Sixers.

When your arguments rely on these 2 facts not existing they are instantly invalid.

[Basketball_Jones]

Which teams this year are contending, not pretending like pre-Kawhi Raptors supposedly were, with the guys they tanked to draft?

Warriors (Curry)
Suns? I guess they technically count though as we just saw Chris Paul has a lot to do with that.
...
Think that's it.

Edit: should amend this to say multi-year tank because we already did tank for Scottie which supposedly isn't enough tanking

Bucks and Nets certainly are. They’ll turn it up for the playoffs.

Neither of those teams tanked. Bucks drafted Giannis 15th and traded for Jrue and Khris. Nets signed KD and Kyrie, and traded for Harden using mostly future picks and Jarrett Allen was drafted 22nd overall.

Oh my bad I didn’t know it was in the context of tanking teams lol. Carry on.