Pascal Siakam - Back or Fools gold?

[Duke4life831]

I think he's back. But I also think he's a glorified second option at best, probably a third option on a good team.

He was literally a second option on a championship winning team.

It depends on what you mean by option. If we are strictly speaking scoring option, yes. But he wasn't the 2nd guy on that offense. He was 4th in Time Per Possession for that team in the offense and it was a significant drop off after Lowry and Kawhi. Those 2 were the clear #1 and #2 overall of that offense.

[Snowwy]

I think he's back. But I also think he's a glorified second option at best, probably a third option on a good team.

He was literally a second option on a championship winning team.

It depends on what you mean by option. If we are strictly speaking scoring option, yes. But he wasn't the 2nd guy on that offense. He was 4th in Time Per Possession for that team in the offense and it was a significant drop off after Lowry and Kawhi. Those 2 were the clear #1 and #2 overall of that offense.

Obviously I think this post is laughable, but let's just talk about general situations. Do you truly think time per possession means anything for a PG?

Time per possession is one of the most flawed stats in sports, let alone basketball. I'm sure you know this. So why are you discussing in bad faith?

Based on your argument, here are some number 1 options this season.

Philadelphia - Tyrese Maxey
LA Lakers - Russ Westbrook
Cleveland - Darius Garland
Milwaukee - Jrue Holiday
Boston - Dennis Shroeder
NY Knicks - Kemba Walker
New Orleans - Devonte Graham

[Ayt]

League average TS% is .557 and he had a TS% of .539 in December and is at .557 so far in January. The lack of efficient scoring since Kawhi left has been my main issue with him.

[Duke4life831]

He was literally a second option on a championship winning team.

It depends on what you mean by option. If we are strictly speaking scoring option, yes. But he wasn't the 2nd guy on that offense. He was 4th in Time Per Possession for that team in the offense and it was a significant drop off after Lowry and Kawhi. Those 2 were the clear #1 and #2 overall of that offense.

Obviously I think this post is laughable, but let's just talk about general situations. Do you truly think time per possession means anything for a PG?

Time per possession is one of the most flawed stats in sports, let alone basketball. I'm sure you know this. So why are you discussing in bad faith?

Discussing in bad faith by saying I think Lowry was a more essential part to the Raptors offense than Siakam during their championship run?

Again Siakam was the #2 scoring option, but he wasn't the #2 guy on that offense. Kawhi was the primary scorer and many times the primary ball handler. Lowry ran the offense, Siakam was asked to attack an already broken down defense. Dont get me wrong, he excelled in that role, but ya I dont think he was the #2 guy on that offense.

All Im saying is saying Siakam was the #2 option for a championship team depends on what you mean by options. Scoring option? Yes. #2 overall option for the offense? No. Pretty straight forward argument. I brought up Time per possession to just show there was a significant drop off between him and Lowry/Kawhi (the two guys that ran the offense). Not saying that was an end all be all stat. Dont think that was that complicated to understand.

[Duffman100]

It depends on what you mean by option. If we are strictly speaking scoring option, yes. But he wasn't the 2nd guy on that offense. He was 4th in Time Per Possession for that team in the offense and it was a significant drop off after Lowry and Kawhi. Those 2 were the clear #1 and #2 overall of that offense.

Obviously I think this post is laughable, but let's just talk about general situations. Do you truly think time per possession means anything for a PG?

Time per possession is one of the most flawed stats in sports, let alone basketball. I'm sure you know this. So why are you discussing in bad faith?

Discussing in bad faith by saying I think Lowry was a more essential part to the Raptors offense than Siakam during their championship run?

Again Siakam was the #2 scoring option, but he wasn't the #2 guy on that offense. Kawhi was the primary scorer and many times the primary ball handler. Lowry ran the offense, Siakam was asked to attack an already broken down defense. Dont get me wrong, he excelled in that role, but ya I dont think he was the #2 guy on that offense.

All Im saying is saying Siakam was the #2 option for a championship team depends on what you mean by options. Scoring option? Yes. #2 overall option for the offense? No. Pretty straight forward argument.

Either way the original poster said "probably 3rd option". And there would be no argument that Pascal was the 3rd option...

The only other argument is then to admit that the Raptors team was deep and stacked, which people won't want to do because that will go against the narrative that Kawhi 'carried' that team.

[Duke4life831]

Obviously I think this post is laughable, but let's just talk about general situations. Do you truly think time per possession means anything for a PG?

Time per possession is one of the most flawed stats in sports, let alone basketball. I'm sure you know this. So why are you discussing in bad faith?

Discussing in bad faith by saying I think Lowry was a more essential part to the Raptors offense than Siakam during their championship run?

Again Siakam was the #2 scoring option, but he wasn't the #2 guy on that offense. Kawhi was the primary scorer and many times the primary ball handler. Lowry ran the offense, Siakam was asked to attack an already broken down defense. Dont get me wrong, he excelled in that role, but ya I dont think he was the #2 guy on that offense.

All Im saying is saying Siakam was the #2 option for a championship team depends on what you mean by options. Scoring option? Yes. #2 overall option for the offense? No. Pretty straight forward argument.

Either way the original poster said "probably 3rd option". And there would be no argument that Pascal was the 3rd option...

The only other argument is then to admit that the Raptors team was deep and stacked, which people won't want to do because that will go against the narrative that Kawhi 'carried' that team.

Im not arguing that. I just responded to a post saying that he was "literally the 2nd option". And all I was saying was it depends on what you mean by 2nd option. If you mean 2nd option as just the 2nd scoring option? Then ya that is correct. If you mean 2nd option as the 2nd guy on the offense? Then no, because that was Lowry.

I dont think a single thing I said is controversial at all haha. And I agree that Raptors team was a really well built team and really deep. Its not like Im taking some shot at Siakam or that Raptors team with my post haha. I was just clarifying some people say 2nd option as a scoring option and some say it as a 2nd option as 2nd overall guy on the offense.

[Duffman100]

Discussing in bad faith by saying I think Lowry was a more essential part to the Raptors offense than Siakam during their championship run?

Again Siakam was the #2 scoring option, but he wasn't the #2 guy on that offense. Kawhi was the primary scorer and many times the primary ball handler. Lowry ran the offense, Siakam was asked to attack an already broken down defense. Dont get me wrong, he excelled in that role, but ya I dont think he was the #2 guy on that offense.

All Im saying is saying Siakam was the #2 option for a championship team depends on what you mean by options. Scoring option? Yes. #2 overall option for the offense? No. Pretty straight forward argument.

Either way the original poster said "probably 3rd option". And there would be no argument that Pascal was the 3rd option...

The only other argument is then to admit that the Raptors team was deep and stacked, which people won't want to do because that will go against the narrative that Kawhi 'carried' that team.

Im not arguing that. I just responded to a post saying that he was "literally the 2nd option". And all I was saying was it depends on what you mean by 2nd option. If you mean 2nd option as just the 2nd scoring option? Then ya that is correct. If you mean 2nd option as the 2nd guy on the offense? Then no, because that was Lowry.

I dont think a single thing I said is controversial at all haha. And I agree that Raptors team was a really well built team and really deep. Its not like Im taking some shot at Siakam or that Raptors team with my post haha.

Oh I know, I wasn't saying you were. Just trying to find maybe some middle ground.

I agree with you, establishing who was the 2nd option on that team is difficult. Pascal scored more, Lowry is sort of the conductor and facilitator... They were more of a 2a/2b scenario.

[phanman]

It depends on what you mean by option. If we are strictly speaking scoring option, yes. But he wasn't the 2nd guy on that offense. He was 4th in Time Per Possession for that team in the offense and it was a significant drop off after Lowry and Kawhi. Those 2 were the clear #1 and #2 overall of that offense.

Obviously I think this post is laughable, but let's just talk about general situations. Do you truly think time per possession means anything for a PG?

Time per possession is one of the most flawed stats in sports, let alone basketball. I'm sure you know this. So why are you discussing in bad faith?

Discussing in bad faith by saying I think Lowry was a more essential part to the Raptors offense than Siakam during their championship run?

Again Siakam was the #2 scoring option, but he wasn't the #2 guy on that offense. Kawhi was the primary scorer and many times the primary ball handler. Lowry ran the offense, Siakam was asked to attack an already broken down defense. Dont get me wrong, he excelled in that role, but ya I dont think he was the #2 guy on that offense.

All Im saying is saying Siakam was the #2 option for a championship team depends on what you mean by options. Scoring option? Yes. #2 overall option for the offense? No. Pretty straight forward argument.

You could make the argument that yes he was the #2 overall option on offense though. He posted a higher USG% that Lowry in both the RS (20.8% vs 19.6% and also in the playoffs (23.1% vs 18.4%) while obviously taking more shots as the 2nd scoring option.

Honestly it's really not worth making an argument for. Kawhi was clearly in a tier of his own as the #1 but Pascal and Lowry where 2A/2B throughout that entire year.

[Duke4life831]

Either way the original poster said "probably 3rd option". And there would be no argument that Pascal was the 3rd option...

The only other argument is then to admit that the Raptors team was deep and stacked, which people won't want to do because that will go against the narrative that Kawhi 'carried' that team.

Im not arguing that. I just responded to a post saying that he was "literally the 2nd option". And all I was saying was it depends on what you mean by 2nd option. If you mean 2nd option as just the 2nd scoring option? Then ya that is correct. If you mean 2nd option as the 2nd guy on the offense? Then no, because that was Lowry.

I dont think a single thing I said is controversial at all haha. And I agree that Raptors team was a really well built team and really deep. Its not like Im taking some shot at Siakam or that Raptors team with my post haha.

Oh I know, I wasn't saying you were. Just trying to find maybe some middle ground.

I agree with you, establishing who was the 2nd option on that team is difficult. Pascal scored more, Lowry is sort of the conductor and facilitator... They were more of a 2a/2b scenario.

Yup that is all Im saying. Kawhi was the clear #1 and I thought Lowry was the #2 guy. I think the responsibilities he was asked to do on that offense was greater than Siakam's. Again not a shot at Siakam, Lowry is just a really good player and played that role unbelievably well. I also think Siakam played his role very very well that playoffs. But ya when I think of 2nd option, I think more than just who was the guy who scored the 2nd most. I just thought Lowry had the 2nd biggest role for that offense in that run.

I saw someone be responded to saying he can be a 3rd option by saying he was literally a 2nd option. And I was just saying a 2nd option can mean different things.

[celticfan42487]

League average TS% is .557 and he had a TS% of .539 in December and is at .557 so far in January. The lack of efficient scoring since Kawhi left has been my main issue with him.

Hitting league average as the #1 on a team without really any threats to pull attention away from him isn't terrible though for those gross stat levels.

Just at least more proof this guy can be a #2 on a winning team.

[Bornstellar]

Yes Siakam technically won a ring as a "second" option (we all know Lowry was the leader of that team with Kawhi as the best player) but let's not forget that it came against an injury depleted roster while having one of the best SFs ever having an all time great playoff run. Under normal circumstances, Siakam is probably not who you want as your #2. Raps fans I'm sure are going to take offense to that but it's the truth

[everdiso]

Im not arguing that. I just responded to a post saying that he was "literally the 2nd option". And all I was saying was it depends on what you mean by 2nd option. If you mean 2nd option as just the 2nd scoring option? Then ya that is correct. If you mean 2nd option as the 2nd guy on the offense? Then no, because that was Lowry.

I dont think a single thing I said is controversial at all haha. And I agree that Raptors team was a really well built team and really deep. Its not like Im taking some shot at Siakam or that Raptors team with my post haha.

Oh I know, I wasn't saying you were. Just trying to find maybe some middle ground.

I agree with you, establishing who was the 2nd option on that team is difficult. Pascal scored more, Lowry is sort of the conductor and facilitator... They were more of a 2a/2b scenario.

Yup that is all Im saying. Kawhi was the clear #1 and I thought Lowry was the #2 guy. I think the responsibilities he was asked to do on that offense was greater than Siakam's. Again not a shot at Siakam, Lowry is just a really good player and played that role unbelievably well. I also think Siakam played his role very very well that playoffs. But ya when I think of 2nd option, I think more than just who was the guy who scored the 2nd most. I just thought Lowry had the 2nd biggest role for that offense in that run.

I saw someone be responded to saying he can be a 3rd option by saying he was literally a 2nd option. And I was just saying a 2nd option can mean different things.

But in reality, the 2nd option always actually refers to the 2nd highest scorer and shot taker.

That's what it means.

And yes, lots of PGs actually handle the ball more than the 2nd option does. That doesn't make them a 2nd option though, that just makes them a point guard.

[everdiso]

Yes Siakam technically won a ring as a "second" option (we all know Lowry was the leader of that team with Kawhi as the best player) but let's not forget that it came against an injury depleted roster while having one of the best SFs ever having an all time great playoff run. Under normal circumstances, Siakam is probably not who you want as your #2. Raps fans I'm sure are going to take offense to that but it's the truth

What does technically mean?

Siakam was the 2nd option on a championship team at age 24. Full stop. I'm sure you'll take offense to that but it's the truth.

Kawhi is not the most dangerous or dominant 1st option in NBA history, not anything close to it, so I don't know why you'd mention him.

And every championshis team in history has benefitted from injuries to other teams, so I'm not sure why you mentioned that. In fact, the raps had one of the toughest roads to a championship you'll see.

[cupcakesnake]

Yes Siakam technically won a ring as a "second" option (we all know Lowry was the leader of that team with Kawhi as the best player) but let's not forget that it came against an injury depleted roster while having one of the best SFs ever having an all time great playoff run. Under normal circumstances, Siakam is probably not who you want as your #2. Raps fans I'm sure are going to take offense to that but it's the truth

I think Pascal is a very ideal #2 when he's put next a big perimeter iso scorer like Kawhi was. I think he'd be a great #2 next to a ball dominant guard as well, like a Lillard or Doncic. I don't think Siakam is a good scorer/creator against a defense that's geared up to stop him. But if he's #2 on a scouting list, he just wreaks absolute havoc. His scoring portfolio is diverse (but lacks the items that would make a #1 scorer), he's a brilliant post up guy when he has the matchup, he's a monster in transition, he's a passer, he's a cutter, he can shoot a little bit. Plus he helps you on the boards and all over the defensive side of the floor. A guy who can get you 20ppg and be a dirty work guy, is an awesome archetype to have as a second player.

It depends on who you're pairing him with. But I think if you made a list of legit #1 scoring options, Pascal would make an ideal #2 next to at least half of them.

I don't know if he was the Raps #2 in 2019. #2 scorer, shot taker, and usage guy by a country mile. But that was a deep team with tons of contributors. Gasol as a defensive anchor and Lowry as a distributor. But Siakam has also developed a little bit since 2019 as a ball handler, passer and scorer.

[Duke4life831]

Oh I know, I wasn't saying you were. Just trying to find maybe some middle ground.

I agree with you, establishing who was the 2nd option on that team is difficult. Pascal scored more, Lowry is sort of the conductor and facilitator... They were more of a 2a/2b scenario.

Yup that is all Im saying. Kawhi was the clear #1 and I thought Lowry was the #2 guy. I think the responsibilities he was asked to do on that offense was greater than Siakam's. Again not a shot at Siakam, Lowry is just a really good player and played that role unbelievably well. I also think Siakam played his role very very well that playoffs. But ya when I think of 2nd option, I think more than just who was the guy who scored the 2nd most. I just thought Lowry had the 2nd biggest role for that offense in that run.

I saw someone be responded to saying he can be a 3rd option by saying he was literally a 2nd option. And I was just saying a 2nd option can mean different things.

But in reality, the 2nd option always actually refers to the 2nd highest scorer and shot taker.

That's what it means.

And yes, lots of PGs actually handle the ball more than the 2nd option does. That doesn't make them a 2nd option though, that just makes them a point guard.

There were years where Steve Nash finished 4th on his team in shots. Are you trying to say Steve Nash wasn't a top 3 option for some of those Suns teams? It all depends on what you mean by option.

Again some people use the term "scoring option". Some people use the term "option" as just an abbreviated way of scoring option. Some people use the term "option" as overall role/ranking in an offense.

Arguing over dumb semantics is pretty much the dumbest argument you could have. All my original post was saying, not everyone uses the term "option" as an abbreviated use of "scoring option". Some use it as to say someone's role/ranking in an offense. So if someone was to say Siakam was a 3rd option for the Raptors championship team, I think its safe to assume they're using it as the role/ranking way of the word.

[everdiso]

Yup that is all Im saying. Kawhi was the clear #1 and I thought Lowry was the #2 guy. I think the responsibilities he was asked to do on that offense was greater than Siakam's. Again not a shot at Siakam, Lowry is just a really good player and played that role unbelievably well. I also think Siakam played his role very very well that playoffs. But ya when I think of 2nd option, I think more than just who was the guy who scored the 2nd most. I just thought Lowry had the 2nd biggest role for that offense in that run.

I saw someone be responded to saying he can be a 3rd option by saying he was literally a 2nd option. And I was just saying a 2nd option can mean different things.

But in reality, the 2nd option always actually refers to the 2nd highest scorer and shot taker.

That's what it means.

And yes, lots of PGs actually handle the ball more than the 2nd option does. That doesn't make them a 2nd option though, that just makes them a point guard.

There were years where Steve Nash finished 4th on his team in shots. Are you trying to say Steve Nash wasn't a top 3 option for some of those Suns teams? It all depends on what you mean by option.

Again some people use the term "scoring option". Some people use the term "option" as just an abbreviated way of scoring option. Some people use the term "option" as overall role/ranking in an offense.

Arguing over dumb semantics is pretty much the dumbest argument you could have. All my original post was saying, not everyone uses the term "option" as an abbreviated use of "scoring option". Some use it as to say someone's role/ranking in an offense. So if someone was to say Siakam was a 3rd option for the Raptors championship team, I think its safe to assume they're using it as the role/ranking way of the word.

It's not semantics.

The "option" on offense always refers to the scorers, not the playmakers. That's just what it means.

Finley was the 2nd option on Dallas, not Nash.

I'm pretty sure Lowry had more time on the ball than Kawhi did. That doesn't make Lowry the 1st option.

Nobody said Siakam was the 2nd best player in the championship team. They said he was the 2nd option. Which he was.

The only one making a dumb semantics argument here is you - everybody knows what 2nd option refers to.

[Raps in 4]

He's back to what should be a great 2nd option but still not good enough to be a 1st option.

This. With FVV taking over the primary scoring role lately, he's become a lot more comfortable.

[phanman]

He looks like 75% 2019 Siakam and 25% 2020 Siakam. I mean that in a good way. He's mostly back to being an efficient swiss army knife that can dominate with hustle and versatility. Career high rebounding and assist rates. He's shooting less 3s and sticking more to his strengths. He still gets a little overconfident in iso sometimes and likes to attack even when he doesn't have the matchup. He's a playmaking hustle guy who can post up mismatches and kill you in transition. Nice to see his usage dip a bit because I think that's where he's optimized.

Long term I'm not sure I see room for Barnes and Siakam to both be their best selves together. But I'm not sure what kind of player Barnes will evolve into, it's still so early.

I love Siakam. He's an all-time Raptor and the face of the vaunted Raptors culture (more than Lowry imo). If they trade him, I'll be sad about it. But if they get a lot for him, I won't think it was a terrible idea.

I'd hope he would be, considering Lowry is Miami

Kyle set the tone for the franchise and his disciple in Freddy has taken over without skipping a beat. From a leadership standpoint, we are blessed to have two sides of the coin with Freddy being the serious one and Pascal being the up-beat fun loving guy for the team to follow. Both are incredibly hard workers along with OG and thus why we have such a great developmental track record and a relatively close-knit team.

People who say that Pascal isn't an ideal #2 option on a championship team, really just haven't watch him play at his full potential. That bubble-showing and parts of last season were not indicative of the player we gave a max deal to. You can state that Barnes' arrival makes Pascal expendable, but Scottie/OG do have the size/strength to handle most 5s in the league not named Embiid.

[PistolPeteJR]

I wanna say “trade now or in the summer”, but I also feel like he might correct his three ball and be worth more by the deadline next year lol

[payton2kemp]

Back.

Better in ways. Pull up mid range and playmaking has upgraded. The 3 pt shot remains shaky

Sent from my SM-G960W using RealGM mobile app

He's fools gold. Like the OP said you guys have been playing G league teams, no one sends there players to Canada anymore.