PG: Abysmal

[raptor jesus]

I think it's rather apparent at this point, but I had to look into it to confirm my thoughts. The Raps indeed have the worst bench in the league in terms of point production and 3-point shooting, and by a fair margin. 24 ppg and 26% 3-point shooting...

[Ref_from_hell]

I think it's rather apparent at this point, but I had to look into it to confirm my thoughts. The Raps indeed have the worst bench in the league in terms of point production and 3-point shooting, and by a fair margin. 24 ppg and 26% 3-point shooting...

I may regret saying this, but I miss Terrence Davis, Matt Thomas, even Bembry. They may not have always been locked in on the defensive end, but they provided way more offensively than the crap we have right now

[WeThe2019Champs]

Damn, our bench sucks so bad. Bunch of bench warmers.

[Los_29]

I think it's rather apparent at this point, but I had to look into it to confirm my thoughts. The Raps indeed have the worst bench in the league in terms of point production and 3-point shooting, and by a fair margin. 24 ppg and 26% 3-point shooting...

[WaltFrazier]

I think it's rather apparent at this point, but I had to look into it to confirm my thoughts. The Raps indeed have the worst bench in the league in terms of point production and 3-point shooting, and by a fair margin. 24 ppg and 26% 3-point shooting...

I may regret saying this, but I miss Terrence Davis, Matt Thomas, even Bembry. They may not have always been locked in on the defensive end, but they provided way more offensively than the crap we have right now

Great point. Last offseason we waived Bembry, Stanley, whoever else, like a clean sweep after Davis and Thomas were already gone. I forget who else. But then we re-stock a bench that wasn't great with much worse guys. What was the point?

[JShuttlesworth]

People over reacted and got ahead of themselves during that 6-game win streak

Our next 11 games are pretty tough. Bucks, Heat x 3, Bulls x 2, Mavs, Hornets all during that stretch. It could be disastrous, but will give us a better idea of where we are

[ATLTimekeeper]

Y’all really overreacting. It’s just one game against a team that wants to beat us at all costs every time. It doesn’t mean this team isn’t a good team when the starters are healthy. And yes the drop off from the starters is STEEP but like pingpongrac said, I’m sure the front office didn’t expect Svi and Boucher’s shooting to regress as much as it has. Raptors will still be in the playoffs come April. Some people may not like that but it’s true.

We do miss having GTJ space the floor and be a release valve though.

I remember having this discussion prior to last season, but Boucher was like a career low 30s shooter from 3. He was never a good shooter, just a guy who could shoot. Last year he was an incredible shooter. Now he's turned into a terrible shooter, but one that can make up for it with effort, athleticism and a decent touch around the rim. Svi plays like mobsters have gotten to his family. He's only ever been a "bad team" player. The kind that has never had stakes, and so never has to really worry about mistakes. It's truly time Nurse pulls the plug, but I think because he lobbied the FO to get him that he's paternalizing this relationship. Matt Thomas was much better and did way more for the Raptors. Terence Davis (I get why he's not on the team anymore, but...) was a knock down shooter. These weren't Nurse's guys, and so he nitpicked.

Anyway, the only enjoyable part of this game was Ed Malloy emphasizing "potential" on the flagrant shove to Boucher. Right there you knew he was going to do everything in his power to ignore the evidence and lobby for a common foul. Moments like that are unique to this league, where some of the refs become so well known as bad at their job that they're characters and a part of the entertainment product.

I also like that Scottie picked it up a bit despite his struggles. He had a bit of a Bargnani first half. I felt like he could have been given more minutes, even. It seemed like just bad game management to overplay Siakam and Fred in a clean blowout. Nurse chewing out the refs at the end of the game there made me cringe. Casey has his number and is living in his head. Just take a page out of his book and brandish the ring, instead of deflecting your rage at some guys who had no influence on the outcome.

The one thing I don't miss about Kyle is the arguing with the refs. It is getting old when Nurse does it. I don't think it changes anything. Any complaints about how our team is treated should be Masai and Bobby's job.

Arguing with the refs is necessary. Arguing at the end of a blowout against a lowlife opponent is pathetic.

[ATLTimekeeper]

People over reacted and got ahead of themselves during that 6-game win streak

Our next 11 games are pretty tough. Bucks, Heat x 3, Bulls x 2, Mavs, Hornets all during that stretch. It could be disastrous, but will give us a better idea of where we are

We've been around .500 all year, a few games ahead and below. Seems pretty consistent. Maybe a few people got ahead of themselves, but then we have some that also think this team is as bad as Detroit because they lost to Detroit. If the Raptors choose to tank, they'll tank and it'll be obvious. They chose last year, when they could have easily pulled off .500ish by playing Kyle.

[Ref_from_hell]

People over reacted and got ahead of themselves during that 6-game win streak

Our next 11 games are pretty tough. Bucks, Heat x 3, Bulls x 2, Mavs, Hornets all during that stretch. It could be disastrous, but will give us a better idea of where we are

That is a pretty tough stretch, and 19 of their final 33 games after that stretch are against teams that are either 500 or below 500. It's a pretty favorable schedule after that stretch that you are mentioning. They just have to stay afloat for the rest of this month.

[JShuttlesworth]

People over reacted and got ahead of themselves during that 6-game win streak

Our next 11 games are pretty tough. Bucks, Heat x 3, Bulls x 2, Mavs, Hornets all during that stretch. It could be disastrous, but will give us a better idea of where we are

That is a pretty tough stretch, and 19 of their final 33 games after that stretch are against teams that are either 500 or below 500. It's a pretty favorable schedule after that stretch that you are mentioning. They just have to stay afloat for the rest of this month.

Definitely eases up afterwards

[JShuttlesworth]

People over reacted and got ahead of themselves during that 6-game win streak

Our next 11 games are pretty tough. Bucks, Heat x 3, Bulls x 2, Mavs, Hornets all during that stretch. It could be disastrous, but will give us a better idea of where we are

We've been around .500 all year, a few games ahead and below. Seems pretty consistent. Maybe a few people got ahead of themselves, but then we have some that also think this team is as bad as Detroit because they lost to Detroit. If the Raptors choose to tank, they'll tank and it'll be obvious. They chose last year, when they could have easily pulled off .500ish by playing Kyle.

I think people are over reacting on both sides, you're right. It's just another loss, it happens with an inconsistent, young bench.

I don't think the Raps tank like last year, the bottom 10 is too weak relative to us this year. I think we finish January below (but close to) 500 and then hover around there moving forward. Maybe soft tank late to enhance draft position slightly.

You never know though, if Fred goes down for 2-weeks with an injury, we could stack losses in a hurry.

Our bench will get exposed as a 7th / 8th seed though if we do make the playoffs.

[planetmars]

People over reacted and got ahead of themselves during that 6-game win streak

Our next 11 games are pretty tough. Bucks, Heat x 3, Bulls x 2, Mavs, Hornets all during that stretch. It could be disastrous, but will give us a better idea of where we are

We've been around .500 all year, a few games ahead and below. Seems pretty consistent. Maybe a few people got ahead of themselves, but then we have some that also think this team is as bad as Detroit because they lost to Detroit. If the Raptors choose to tank, they'll tank and it'll be obvious. They chose last year, when they could have easily pulled off .500ish by playing Kyle.

I think people are over reacting on both sides, you're right. It's just another loss, it happens with an inconsistent, young bench.

I don't think the Raps tank like last year, the bottom 10 is too weak relative to us this year. I think we finish January below (but close to) 500 and then hover around there moving forward. Maybe soft tank late to enhance draft position slightly.

You never know though, if Fred goes down for 2-weeks with an injury, we could stack losses in a hurry.

Our bench will get exposed as a 7th / 8th seed though if we do make the playoffs.

Is a bench really all that important for the playoffs? Even in 2016 when we went to the ECF, we really only went 8 deep with Bismack, CoJo and Ross (Bismack got more minutes as JV went down). Scola, Norm, etc were only averaging about 8-10 points a game with limited minutes.

When healthy we are about 7 deep depending on what you think of Precious, maybe 8. And Nurse will ensure everyone good is playing about 42-43 mpg. So that's about 5-6 minutes where we have to find other guys to step in.. but we should be able to always have 2 of Pascal, Fred, OG and Trent on the floor at the same time.

[Ref_from_hell]

We've been around .500 all year, a few games ahead and below. Seems pretty consistent. Maybe a few people got ahead of themselves, but then we have some that also think this team is as bad as Detroit because they lost to Detroit. If the Raptors choose to tank, they'll tank and it'll be obvious. They chose last year, when they could have easily pulled off .500ish by playing Kyle.

I think people are over reacting on both sides, you're right. It's just another loss, it happens with an inconsistent, young bench.

I don't think the Raps tank like last year, the bottom 10 is too weak relative to us this year. I think we finish January below (but close to) 500 and then hover around there moving forward. Maybe soft tank late to enhance draft position slightly.

You never know though, if Fred goes down for 2-weeks with an injury, we could stack losses in a hurry.

Our bench will get exposed as a 7th / 8th seed though if we do make the playoffs.

Is a bench really all that important for the playoffs? Even in 2016 when we went to the ECF, we really only went 8 deep with Bismack, CoJo and Ross (Bismack got more minutes as JV went down). Scola, Norm, etc were only averaging about 8-10 points a game with limited minutes.

When healthy we are about 7 deep depending on what you think of Precious, maybe 8. And Nurse will ensure everyone good is playing about 42-43 mpg. So that's about 5-6 minutes where we have to find other guys to step in.. but we should be able to always have 2 of Pascal, Fred, OG and Trent on the floor at the same time.

This is a good point. The bench isn't as important in the playoffs. Rotations are much shorter.

Ideally, the only other rotation players aside from the top five would be Precious, Birch, and Boucher. It would be nice to have one more guard who can provide useful minutes otherwise you need to somehow spread minutes around where you have at least one of Trent or Fred on the floor at all times. Unless you then make Pascal or OG your primary ball handler

[JShuttlesworth]

We've been around .500 all year, a few games ahead and below. Seems pretty consistent. Maybe a few people got ahead of themselves, but then we have some that also think this team is as bad as Detroit because they lost to Detroit. If the Raptors choose to tank, they'll tank and it'll be obvious. They chose last year, when they could have easily pulled off .500ish by playing Kyle.

I think people are over reacting on both sides, you're right. It's just another loss, it happens with an inconsistent, young bench.

I don't think the Raps tank like last year, the bottom 10 is too weak relative to us this year. I think we finish January below (but close to) 500 and then hover around there moving forward. Maybe soft tank late to enhance draft position slightly.

You never know though, if Fred goes down for 2-weeks with an injury, we could stack losses in a hurry.

Our bench will get exposed as a 7th / 8th seed though if we do make the playoffs.

Is a bench really all that important for the playoffs? Even in 2016 when we went to the ECF, we really only went 8 deep with Bismack, CoJo and Ross (Bismack got more minutes as JV went down). Scola, Norm, etc were only averaging about 8-10 points a game with limited minutes.

When healthy we are about 7 deep depending on what you think of Precious, maybe 8. And Nurse will ensure everyone good is playing about 42-43 mpg. So that's about 5-6 minutes where we have to find other guys to step in.. but we should be able to always have 2 of Pascal, Fred, OG and Trent on the floor at the same time.

Yes it is, especially when the best three off your bench are Birch / Boucher / Precious, and there isn't a guard or wing player who can help in sight.

[planetmars]

I think people are over reacting on both sides, you're right. It's just another loss, it happens with an inconsistent, young bench.

I don't think the Raps tank like last year, the bottom 10 is too weak relative to us this year. I think we finish January below (but close to) 500 and then hover around there moving forward. Maybe soft tank late to enhance draft position slightly.

You never know though, if Fred goes down for 2-weeks with an injury, we could stack losses in a hurry.

Our bench will get exposed as a 7th / 8th seed though if we do make the playoffs.

Is a bench really all that important for the playoffs? Even in 2016 when we went to the ECF, we really only went 8 deep with Bismack, CoJo and Ross (Bismack got more minutes as JV went down). Scola, Norm, etc were only averaging about 8-10 points a game with limited minutes.

When healthy we are about 7 deep depending on what you think of Precious, maybe 8. And Nurse will ensure everyone good is playing about 42-43 mpg. So that's about 5-6 minutes where we have to find other guys to step in.. but we should be able to always have 2 of Pascal, Fred, OG and Trent on the floor at the same time.

Yes it is, especially when the best three off your bench are Birch / Boucher / Precious, and there isn't a guard or wing player who can help in sight.

Yes that's the obvious issue. Svi is our only backup guard and he's terrible. I'd like us to try to find a cheap backup combo guard for the rest of the season. But if we can't find one.. just have to do our best to ensure we always have a shooter on the court (Fred, Trent, OG).. and at least 2 playmakers (Fred, Pascal, Scottie). I think that's doable with tight rotations.

It's an injury that will derail everything. But that's usually the case for most teams in the playoffs.

[lobosloboslobos]

Darth Casey has temporarily broken my spirit

[JShuttlesworth]

Is a bench really all that important for the playoffs? Even in 2016 when we went to the ECF, we really only went 8 deep with Bismack, CoJo and Ross (Bismack got more minutes as JV went down). Scola, Norm, etc were only averaging about 8-10 points a game with limited minutes.

When healthy we are about 7 deep depending on what you think of Precious, maybe 8. And Nurse will ensure everyone good is playing about 42-43 mpg. So that's about 5-6 minutes where we have to find other guys to step in.. but we should be able to always have 2 of Pascal, Fred, OG and Trent on the floor at the same time.

Yes it is, especially when the best three off your bench are Birch / Boucher / Precious, and there isn't a guard or wing player who can help in sight.

Yes that's the obvious issue. Svi is our only backup guard and he's terrible. I'd like us to try to find a cheap backup combo guard for the rest of the season. But if we can't find one.. just have to do our best to ensure we always have a shooter on the court (Fred, Trent, OG).. and at least 2 playmakers (Fred, Pascal, Scottie). I think that's doable with tight rotations.

It's an injury that will derail everything. But that's usually the case for most teams in the playoffs.

If we had a good backup guard, a solid wing, and a big it would be a different story. We have three bigs though, it's a mess, it creates all sorts of potential issues. Especially with starters picking up fouls early on guys like DeRozan, Giannis, Durant, etc.

I think back to 2019 we had Ibaka, Powell, VanVleet all coming off the bench (and OG during the RS). They'd be the top 4 on our current bench by a mile it isn't even close. That was a good bench, and they all played a role.

We're a long ways away from that, but depth wins rings, even when you have a Kawhi-like superstar on the roster.

[planetmars]

Yes it is, especially when the best three off your bench are Birch / Boucher / Precious, and there isn't a guard or wing player who can help in sight.

Yes that's the obvious issue. Svi is our only backup guard and he's terrible. I'd like us to try to find a cheap backup combo guard for the rest of the season. But if we can't find one.. just have to do our best to ensure we always have a shooter on the court (Fred, Trent, OG).. and at least 2 playmakers (Fred, Pascal, Scottie). I think that's doable with tight rotations.

It's an injury that will derail everything. But that's usually the case for most teams in the playoffs.

If we had a good backup guard, a solid wing, and a big it would be a different story. We have three bigs though, it's a mess, it creates all sorts of potential issues. Especially with starters picking up fouls early on guys like DeRozan, Giannis, Durant, etc.

I think back to 2019 we had Ibaka, Powell, VanVleet all coming off the bench (and OG during the RS). They'd be the top 4 on our current bench by a mile it isn't even close. That was a good bench, and they all played a role.

We're a long ways away from that, but depth wins rings, even when you have a Kawhi-like superstar on the roster.

The 2019 team was stacked, and they won a chip. We're not there yet. But we could be okay without a bench at least this season. Precious and Boucher can play together and away from each other. Pascal has been doing a lot of playmaking and is having success. Scottie can be a playmaker. OG can play as a guard. It's a weird composition but it can work.

The big variable is health. That's always an issue for every team.. but without depth an injury can kill you. I mean you take Fred away from this team for a significant enough time, and I think we're in the lottery again. So that's the concerning thing for me. If we're healthy though then I think we'll be fine for the playoffs. Fingers crossed.

[pingpongrac]

I think people are over reacting on both sides, you're right. It's just another loss, it happens with an inconsistent, young bench.

I don't think the Raps tank like last year, the bottom 10 is too weak relative to us this year. I think we finish January below (but close to) 500 and then hover around there moving forward. Maybe soft tank late to enhance draft position slightly.

You never know though, if Fred goes down for 2-weeks with an injury, we could stack losses in a hurry.

Our bench will get exposed as a 7th / 8th seed though if we do make the playoffs.

Is a bench really all that important for the playoffs? Even in 2016 when we went to the ECF, we really only went 8 deep with Bismack, CoJo and Ross (Bismack got more minutes as JV went down). Scola, Norm, etc were only averaging about 8-10 points a game with limited minutes.

When healthy we are about 7 deep depending on what you think of Precious, maybe 8. And Nurse will ensure everyone good is playing about 42-43 mpg. So that's about 5-6 minutes where we have to find other guys to step in.. but we should be able to always have 2 of Pascal, Fred, OG and Trent on the floor at the same time.

Yes it is, especially when the best three off your bench are Birch / Boucher / Precious, and there isn't a guard or wing player who can help in sight.

As others have said though, our top players will be playing even more minutes. We'd obviously need to be healthy to stand a chance, but our top 5 is really good and Birch/Boucher/Achiuwa only need to give us a bit of relief while a couple starters are resting for 3-5 minutes each half.

With guaranteed off-days, we could get by with FVV/Siakam playing ~40 minutes each and OG/GTJ/Scottie playing ~36 minutes each. That leaves ~50 minutes for mostly Birch, Boucher and Achiuwa with one of Svi/Yuta/Champagnie sprinkled in if our top guys need an extra couple minutes of rest. As long as we can keep 2-3 starters on the floor at all times, Boucher (especially) and Achiuwa can be effective in their minutes as hustle players that get us some extra possessions.

Look at the recent games when we've been healthy. Our starters played significant minutes against the Bucks and Jazz with Birch/Boucher/Achiuwa playing ~15 minutes each and Champagnie played 11 minutes against the Bucks in the 2nd half because he was giving us great energy. Even the games against the Knicks and Spurs -- and more recently games without GTJ -- Svi and Yuta look like they are falling out of the rotation. They're typically playing 5-10 MPG lately. We can definitely get by with a tight 8-man rotation even if all of our bench players are bigs. We'll just have to play a lot of big lineups, so it's good we are getting more reps in now.

[Dalek]

Classic trap game loss. Milwaukee tomorrow and we overlooked Detroit. Toronto has annoying losses and this is one of them.

Cade looked great.

Nah we can't excuse every terrible performance like this. Bucks tomorrow is a guaranteed loss and we face a fully healthy Miami team after that. Can't be giving away games like this.

That 6 game win streak is going to be essentially erased.

It is just human nature to overlook lessor teams. Detroit also beat Utah and Milwaukee recently and it is likely because of the same reason.

I think you can expect a team with literally only 3 healthy starters to be up and down. Missing Trent and Scottie being hurt means other guys have to step up and the margin for error is slim. If Toronto doesn't focus like it did against Phoenix we will lose.

Once this team is healthy and maybe solidifies the rotation a bit with a shooter, the wins will come.