Game 41: Pistons (9-31) vs. Raptors (20-18) - Jan. 14 7:00 PM EST

[Kalamazoo317]

Hayes feels very much like a developmental player still. We've seen him be able to stroke the corner 3 a bit, we've seen him be able to get down the lane and have touch around the rim. He's just very, very inconsistent with this stuff. If he managed to develop consistent offensive production, he's absolutely a good enough passer, and has the makings of a good enough defender to be a really nice longterm piece for us. But he's obviously not there right now. It's different than Saben Lee, though, in that he has the size to be an impact player at this level without having to be an absolutely elite shooter.

Kelly O seems like he'll be a lot like Lyles is in our offense and defense, just with a few extra inches of height and a more reliable 3 point shot.

[ComboGuardCity]

Remember the beginning of the year last year when Hayes couldn’t dribble it up the court under pressure and couldn’t make an entry pass? I’m pleased with his development thus far. He’s a plus defender that is becoming more and more confident with the ball in his hands. Next stop is jump shot and finishing at the rim. If he gets those to average we have a good player

[bstein14]

Remember the beginning of the year last year when Hayes couldn’t dribble it up the court under pressure and couldn’t make an entry pass? I’m pleased with his development thus far. He’s a plus defender that is becoming more and more confident with the ball in his hands. Next stop is jump shot and finishing at the rim. If he gets those to average we have a good player

He came in and was like a deer in headlights. Obviously not having a summer league and much of a training camp wasn't ideal for him, but those first 7 games before he got injured were really brutal. I remember he just wasn't comfortable dribbling the ball against Marcus Smart.

[Manocad]

I still feel the same about him, if he can't show a big jump next season I don't think he deserves big minutes. Let's be real a 'good' game for him is most likely still a terrible game for an average player. A 5pt 5ast game is a good night for him lol

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The averages of the top 32 PG's in the NBA are 14.3 PPG, 4.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 1.1 steals, 0.4 blocks, and 2.4 TO's. Hayes averages 6.3 PPG so scoring 5 doesn't qualify as a good game, even for him. Now, since he averages 3.1 boards, 3.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1.6 TO's he had a good game in that regard with 6 boards, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 block and 1 TO.

So yeah, let's be real since you clearly didn't want to actually look up any stats before making your assertion--Hayes' stat line last night wouldn't represent a "terrible" game for the average PG, especially given that he only took 5 shots because he didn't need to take more than that, he put up most of his stats in the first half, and his team won the game. Sure, he fell well below the average PG's PPG but exceeded almost every other stat.

And the caveat I'll of course throw out there as I usually do...I don't have any more love for Killian than I do for anyone on the team; I didn't even know who he was when he was drafted. But until the team reaches a point where more is needed out of the PG position--not wanted by fans on the internet, but NEEDED--and there's no better option available, begrudging the minutes he gets because he doesn't "deserve" them overlooks the fact that given what we've seen so far this season no other PG on the team does either.

LoL if Corey Joseph, Cade Cunningham, even Lee had the same game no one would bat and eye. And I said good game most average guards to below average can have a game like this while putting up 20+ points on good efficiency. Like I said the expectations for Killian is way lower around here because he's been consistently terrible so a 5pt 5ast game is considered good for him. I don't hate the guy I'm being real about it.



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The assertion you made was that it would be considered a terrible game for an average PG. And it wouldn't be based on stats, which don't support the idea that even below average PG's put up games like this with 20+ points on top. Being real means using real numbers which apparently you don't.

[Manocad]

Once Manocad gets on something he won't stop in every thread for years lol

Entertainment value, man. I get people being emotional and impatient about sports and I'm fine with that. Just be honest about it. Like I keep saying, if you want Hayes gone just because you want a better player in his spot so the team can win more games now because you find that more entertaining, just say it. But being that this is a forum where we bounce ideas, thoughts, and criticisms off each other, if you throw out an argument that Hayes shouldn't get the minutes he gets at PG because he hasn't "earned" them, never should have been drafted at 7, will absolutely be a bust after 57 games, that Saben Lee has better PER stats, or that Hayes playing is ruining the team's development trajectory thus a change needs to made now or something like that, certainly you have to expect that I'm going to call it out if it doesn't make sense.

And of course, I'll always poke at people who assert their opinions as irrefutable facts, especially relative to future outcomes.

All I ever said is he needed to start showing more offensively. Then you've brought him up every chance possible since with all the other the other stuff.

I didn't bring Hayes up; I responded to someone's post. And even if I had I'll let you in on a little secret...that's how forums work.

[mattao313]

The averages of the top 32 PG's in the NBA are 14.3 PPG, 4.3 RPG, 5.9 APG, 1.1 steals, 0.4 blocks, and 2.4 TO's. Hayes averages 6.3 PPG so scoring 5 doesn't qualify as a good game, even for him. Now, since he averages 3.1 boards, 3.7 assists, 1.3 steals, 0.4 blocks and 1.6 TO's he had a good game in that regard with 6 boards, 5 assists, 2 steals, 1 block and 1 TO.

So yeah, let's be real since you clearly didn't want to actually look up any stats before making your assertion--Hayes' stat line last night wouldn't represent a "terrible" game for the average PG, especially given that he only took 5 shots because he didn't need to take more than that, he put up most of his stats in the first half, and his team won the game. Sure, he fell well below the average PG's PPG but exceeded almost every other stat.

And the caveat I'll of course throw out there as I usually do...I don't have any more love for Killian than I do for anyone on the team; I didn't even know who he was when he was drafted. But until the team reaches a point where more is needed out of the PG position--not wanted by fans on the internet, but NEEDED--and there's no better option available, begrudging the minutes he gets because he doesn't "deserve" them overlooks the fact that given what we've seen so far this season no other PG on the team does either.

LoL if Corey Joseph, Cade Cunningham, even Lee had the same game no one would bat and eye. And I said good game most average guards to below average can have a game like this while putting up 20+ points on good efficiency. Like I said the expectations for Killian is way lower around here because he's been consistently terrible so a 5pt 5ast game is considered good for him. I don't hate the guy I'm being real about it.



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The assertion you made was that it would be considered a terrible game for an average PG. And it wouldn't be based on stats, which don't support the idea that even below average PG's put up games like this with 20+ points on top. Being real means using real numbers which apparently you don't.

Even with your numbers it isn't a good game for and average player. But this game is considered good for Killian. His performance last night isn't a stand out for a bench or starting player. That was the point I was trying to make. If you want to argue semantics thats on you.

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[Manocad]

LoL if Corey Joseph, Cade Cunningham, even Lee had the same game no one would bat and eye. And I said good game most average guards to below average can have a game like this while putting up 20+ points on good efficiency. Like I said the expectations for Killian is way lower around here because he's been consistently terrible so a 5pt 5ast game is considered good for him. I don't hate the guy I'm being real about it.



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The assertion you made was that it would be considered a terrible game for an average PG. And it wouldn't be based on stats, which don't support the idea that even below average PG's put up games like this with 20+ points on top. Being real means using real numbers which apparently you don't.

Even with your numbers it isn't a good game for and average player. But this game is considered good for Killian. His performance last night isn't a stand out for a bench or starting player. That was the point I was trying to make. If you want to argue semantics thats on you.

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The only person saying it's considered a good game for Killian is you; I said that it was only a good game for him relative to rebounds and assists because it was below his scoring average. You also said it was a terrible game for an average PG and I showed that it isn't. There are no semantics being argued here; I used actual numbers. You didn't. That's on you.

[Pistonrings]

What many don't seem to get is that we drafted Killian for his POTENTIAL, we are playing him now for his potential. He has lost none of what the brass thought of him when they decided to draft him. He has every physical attributes you could want in a PG. He has good reach, good height, good court vision, good defensive skills, great p assing ability, and no doubt they checked his intelligence and found him to be a smart young man.

This is, for all intents and purposes, his real rookie year. He came from a soft league in France, had no summer league, not much camp, was thrown in to starting at the toughest position in the NBA and Casey has admitted they made a mistake doing that.

They started him out the wrong way. His teammates obviously like him because you can see they are encouraging him to shoot and you can see that Cade likes him and wants to help him grow along side him.

Someone said Killian was trying to calm Diallo down on the bench the other day. He comes off as a good kid, intelligent and always trying to set up others to a fault.

We are NOT playing him for what he is doing right now, he plays because the kid has massive potential, some draft folks had him going top 5, I saw one that was top 3.

It would be TOTALLY STUPID to give up on this kid. We have all seen the flashes of what he is capable of. Some people are simply sensitive and more effected by a shooting problem. I see no problems with this kid other than mental issues and most of that is because of how the coaches shoved him right in when he got here with no preparation.

[Pharaoh]

What many don't seem to get is that we drafted Killian for his POTENTIAL, we are playing him now for his potential. He has lost none of what the brass thought of him when they decided to draft him. He has every physical attributes you could want in a PG. He has good reach, good height, good court vision, good defensive skills, great p assing ability, and no doubt they checked his intelligence and found him to be a smart young man.

This is, for all intents and purposes, his real rookie year. He came from a soft league in France, had no summer league, not much camp, was thrown in to starting at the toughest position in the NBA and Casey has admitted they made a mistake doing that.

They started him out the wrong way. His teammates obviously like him because you can see they are encouraging him to shoot and you can see that Cade likes him and wants to help him grow along side him.

Someone said Killian was trying to calm Diallo down on the bench the other day. He comes off as a good kid, intelligent and always trying to set up others to a fault.

We are NOT playing him for what he is doing right now, he plays because the kid has massive potential, some draft folks had him going top 5, I saw one that was top 3.

It would be TOTALLY STUPID to give up on this kid. We have all seen the flashes of what he is capable of. Some people are simply sensitive and more effected by a shooting problem. I see no problems with this kid other than mental issues and most of that is because of how the coaches shoved him right in when he got here with no preparation.

Careful cause actually thinking long term around here can ruffle some feathers!



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[Kp junior]

Hayes is obviously not the player we want him to be yet, but a few things have really improved this year.
His handle is much better. He was hardly able to go right before and now the handle is looking really good. You can see his confidence in it growing.
His 3 point shot is better than last year, but still not good enough.
His passing and defense is very good already.
His finishing at the rim is very bad, the worst part of his game


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[El Chivo]

Hayes was not a good pick at 7. No reasons to give up, though. Let him play and evaluate until he's under a rookie contract.

[Manocad]

Hayes was not a good pick at 7. No reasons to give up, though. Let him play and evaluate until he's under a rookie contract.

You mean a team shouldn't give up on a player on a cheap contract because he hasn't reached at least average NBA PG stats after 67 games? That's crazy talk, man. He should be playing fewer minutes until he "deserves" more minutes. And if he doesn't improve by playing fewer minutes, play him even fewer minutes, then if he still doesn't improve trade him for a bag a chips before the end of the season. It's a strategy that worked GREAT with Spencer Dinwiddie and Khris Middleton, right?

[El Chivo]

Hayes was not a good pick at 7. No reasons to give up, though. Let him play and evaluate until he's under a rookie contract.

You mean a team shouldn't give up on a player on a cheap contract because he hasn't reached at least average NBA PG stats after 67 games? That's crazy talk, man. He should be playing fewer minutes until he "deserves" more minutes. And if he doesn't improve by playing fewer minutes, play him even fewer minutes, then if he still doesn't improve trade him for a bag a chips before the end of the season. It's a strategy that worked GREAT with Spencer Dinwiddie and Khris Middleton, right?

I said 'let him play and (let's) evaluate (him) until he's under a rookie contract'

[whitehops]

i like when we beat the raptors.

[Manocad]

Hayes was not a good pick at 7. No reasons to give up, though. Let him play and evaluate until he's under a rookie contract.

You mean a team shouldn't give up on a player on a cheap contract because he hasn't reached at least average NBA PG stats after 67 games? That's crazy talk, man. He should be playing fewer minutes until he "deserves" more minutes. And if he doesn't improve by playing fewer minutes, play him even fewer minutes, then if he still doesn't improve trade him for a bag a chips before the end of the season. It's a strategy that worked GREAT with Spencer Dinwiddie and Khris Middleton, right?

I said 'let him play and (let's) evaluate (him) until he's under a rookie contract'

Clearly your sarcasm detection meter is broken. I'm agreeing with you.

Although I admit I don't know what you mean by "evaluate until he's under a rookie contract." He's on a rookie contract currently. Maybe you meant "evaluate until his rookie contract is up."

[DetroitSho]

Hayes was not a good pick at 7. No reasons to give up, though. Let him play and evaluate until he's under a rookie contract.

You mean a team shouldn't give up on a player on a cheap contract because he hasn't reached at least average NBA PG stats after 67 games? That's crazy talk, man. He should be playing fewer minutes until he "deserves" more minutes. And if he doesn't improve by playing fewer minutes, play him even fewer minutes, then if he still doesn't improve trade him for a bag a chips before the end of the season. It's a strategy that worked GREAT with Spencer Dinwiddie and Khris Middleton, right?

I said 'let him play and (let's) evaluate (him) until he's under a rookie contract'

He is on a rookie contract. Are you trying to say something else?

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[Manocad]

i like when we beat the raptors.

Hah. I saw that.

[whitehops]

i like when we beat the raptors.

Hah. I saw that.

i was hoping nobody caught that haha. gets confusing when there's two game threads going at the same time.

[Manocad]

i like when we beat the raptors.

Hah. I saw that.

i was hoping nobody caught that haha. gets confusing when there's two game threads going at the same time.

Dude, I did it four posts in a row recently before thinking "Where the hell did everyone go?" Derp