Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[old school 34]

I'm not sure I see the distinction you are trying to make. As far as I can tell, pretty much all the Wolves assets might be needed in some combination to acquire Simmons and consequently they have been unavailable for smaller deals. Every indication is that this has been the case since early in the off-season (basically since the Beverley deal).

Say what you want about the size, but Culver and Hernangomez were assets too. However, they were still dealt...whether it's because Beverley would be a bigger asset or because they thought Beverley was important for the team culture.

If any of our assets can net a more valuable asset, I think the team would still make the deal regardless of the Simmons situation and/or negotiations. It isn't a no-trades standstill right now like many Wolves fans think.

I guess we disagree. I see the Beverley trade (and the Rubio one) as happening early enough that it didn't really impact the Simmons pursuit (since Beverley and Prince would become trade eligible in a timeframe that wouldn't hinder a Simmons trade). Since then, I've strongly suspected that the team has been sitting on their assets waiting for the Simmons situation to be resolved. I've believed that since the middle of the off-season, and recent rumors from NBA sources have only reinforced that opinion.

I'll be happy to be proven wrong, since that would mean that the Wolves actually make a deal to improve the roster (something that is overdue at this point).

I get your point to a certain extent, but trades are extremely rare prior to about now....so that claim may be a little premature. Also, a lot of the teams that we may be talking with on say plan 'B' deals....are kind of in no hurry as well...because they're partially waiting the Simmons deal out as well.

Besides making a trade early most likely means you'll have to overpay (or at minimum the likelihood is much greater)....since, there's going to be so few of teams classified as sellers...they should be able to leverage stronger returns. Now closer to the deadline also means potentially more teams become sellers & prices come down more.

We're in an okay spot in the standings...have a good read on the selling teams & they're timelines...but time is to be patient.

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[old school 34]

I'm relatively okay with the rumors that Wolves may be holding tight until they know for sure they're out on Simmons...as it seems that they have a cap as to how far they will go for him &/or just don't have enough to facilitate the type of deal anyways.

The next move would be either Grant or Barnes for me with the thought of moving Bev back to the bench instead of Vando.....that gives us that extra length with our starters & let the Bev-effect bleed into our bench as he would be huge for a super young bench.

I really like a Grant/Olynyk trade for Beasley/Prince/Layman/future 1st & 2nd.

Grant 2 yrs younger than Barnes & Olynyk better fitting 2nd piece....Det might value Beasley a little more if nothing else as future asset & they don't have Hield already on roster?

Wolves rotation looks more like:

PG--Dlo/Bev
SG--Ant/Nowell
SF--Grant/McDaniels
PF--V8/Grant
C--KAT/Olynyk

Spotting in: Naz, Okogie, JMac

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I find the idea interesting, but would consider adding to it. We throw in Leo, they throw in Bey. The thing about Bey is he has been horrible this year. His defensive numbers are bad, his shooting is way down, and their attempts to turn him into an effective shot creator have failed. From their perspective he had a good season last year and is simply in a sophomore slump, why would they trade a valuable young piece for someone like Leo who has underwhelmed thus far?

Answer, for us he adds adds depth and potentially shooting. We get him back to catch and shoot and use him in our defensive scheme. His long arms and good instincts will help with the long close outs that we are becoming known for. He is in theory a small ball 4 but can could also probably play with MCD. He and MCD are both known as catch and shoot but MCD is better off the dribble and in theory Bey is better at shooting overall (when he is not slumping.)

Why they do it. Leo is younger, has longer on his rookie contract, and has shown multi-positional defensive talent. The Pistons PGs are all mediocre at best, Leo could be given minutes in the hopes of turning him into the two way PG we hoped he would be. Also from what I saw of Bey’s numbers his value is plummeting this year. If he doesn’t turn things around they may not be able to get another offer for a good young player in similar draft position. There numbers with him on the floor are abysmal and he is not developing into the shot creator they want. Leo might be able to fill that role (albeit as a bit smaller player.)

I am not sure either team goes for this, I just thought it would be interesting to discuss. Thoughts?

Well of course, I'd love to expand it like you stated (was a big fan of Bey @ Nova)....but I feel there's next to no chance that they'd go down this road?

My biggest concern about chasing Grant ....is he'll cost the most assets of any of the tradable wings (minus Simmons if you put him in the wing group)...

That's where I might end up settling on Barnes instead....just if Grant gets too expensive?

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[minimus]

The more I look at things, the more I don't see Turner as a perfect fit in what Finch wants to run. I think they can make it fit, but what makes our defense hum is our switchability 1 through 4. Turner doesn't fit into that, not for what we would have to give up in order to get him. Not saying the value is right for him either, but Simmons is arguably a better fit for what we want to do, in part because of his flexibility to slot in as either a playmaker or complement on offense along with his incredible defense. Beverley brought a similar flexibility, and look at how well he's fit in.

Turner averaged more that 30mpg only twice in his 7 year NBA career. I can see Turner as defensive minded big playing 25mpg primary with bench unit can really elevate our team. In starting lineup we MUST have PoA defender (Beverley), wing stopper, low men (Vando/MCD) + Towns/DLo/Edwards. So making Turner first sub of the bench makes a lot of sense. I see only two problems: first, Turner seeks bigger role (bigger contract I guess) and reducing his playing time might cause issue, second with Turner at C, I prefer us to switch to semi-drop defensive scheme. Although I am not sure here, maybe he can act as blitz defender on perimeter and be a shot blocking menace at the same time.

P.S. Reid is due to contract extension this off-season. He is my favorite player, but I don't see how we can play him enough, behind Towns and Turner at C.

[winforlose]

I'm relatively okay with the rumors that Wolves may be holding tight until they know for sure they're out on Simmons...as it seems that they have a cap as to how far they will go for him &/or just don't have enough to facilitate the type of deal anyways.

The next move would be either Grant or Barnes for me with the thought of moving Bev back to the bench instead of Vando.....that gives us that extra length with our starters & let the Bev-effect bleed into our bench as he would be huge for a super young bench.

I really like a Grant/Olynyk trade for Beasley/Prince/Layman/future 1st & 2nd.

Grant 2 yrs younger than Barnes & Olynyk better fitting 2nd piece....Det might value Beasley a little more if nothing else as future asset & they don't have Hield already on roster?

Wolves rotation looks more like:

PG--Dlo/Bev
SG--Ant/Nowell
SF--Grant/McDaniels
PF--V8/Grant
C--KAT/Olynyk

Spotting in: Naz, Okogie, JMac

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I find the idea interesting, but would consider adding to it. We throw in Leo, they throw in Bey. The thing about Bey is he has been horrible this year. His defensive numbers are bad, his shooting is way down, and their attempts to turn him into an effective shot creator have failed. From their perspective he had a good season last year and is simply in a sophomore slump, why would they trade a valuable young piece for someone like Leo who has underwhelmed thus far?

Answer, for us he adds adds depth and potentially shooting. We get him back to catch and shoot and use him in our defensive scheme. His long arms and good instincts will help with the long close outs that we are becoming known for. He is in theory a small ball 4 but can could also probably play with MCD. He and MCD are both known as catch and shoot but MCD is better off the dribble and in theory Bey is better at shooting overall (when he is not slumping.)

Why they do it. Leo is younger, has longer on his rookie contract, and has shown multi-positional defensive talent. The Pistons PGs are all mediocre at best, Leo could be given minutes in the hopes of turning him into the two way PG we hoped he would be. Also from what I saw of Bey’s numbers his value is plummeting this year. If he doesn’t turn things around they may not be able to get another offer for a good young player in similar draft position. There numbers with him on the floor are abysmal and he is not developing into the shot creator they want. Leo might be able to fill that role (albeit as a bit smaller player.)

I am not sure either team goes for this, I just thought it would be interesting to discuss. Thoughts?

Well of course, I'd love to expand it like you stated (was a big fan of Bey @ Nova)....but I feel there's next to no chance that they'd go down this road?

My biggest concern about chasing Grant ....is he'll cost the most assets of any of the tradable wings (minus Simmons if you put him in the wing group)...

That's where I might end up settling on Barnes instead....just if Grant gets too expensive?

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I was reading about Bey’s season and his struggles this year. Then I saw what I am linking to below. It paints a pretty ugly picture in the first quarter of the season. Bey looks to be in the same situation that Pritchard was before Covid. He could recover for the Pistons, but he might also need a fresh start elsewhere and to be allowed to play to his strengths instead of the teams needs. I think it is a long shot as well, but would love to try and pursue it.

https://www.reddit.com/r/DetroitPistons/comments/r8vr1e/analyzing_saddiq_beys_struggles_at_the_seasons/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf

[minimus]

https://youtu.be/x8Iz6K6s7V0

Siakam, Svi, Banton for Beasley, Prince, Layman, Reid and 2022 FRP and 2024 FRP

Towns/Pascal/Knight
Siakam/Vando/MCD
Edwards/MCD/Okogie
Beverley/Edwards/Bolmaro
DLo/Nowell/JMac

[winforlose]

https://youtu.be/x8Iz6K6s7V0

Siakam, Svi, Banton for Beasley, Prince, Layman, Reid and 2022 FRP and 2024 FRP

Towns/Pascal/Knight
Siakam/Vando/MCD
Edwards/MCD/Okogie
Beverley/Edwards/Bolmaro
DLo/Nowell/JMac

Initial thoughts.

1, Are we sure Toronto is willing to trade him?

2, His contract would make things difficult for us compared to some other guys who get smaller money now (Turner, Wood, Grant) who would get paid later. The big difference being we would need national tv money to make the higher salary sustainable. That money only comes after we prove we are a winner and that takes time.

3. Seems like a bit of an over pay to give 2 FRP and Reid. Reid is 22 and when given minutes, (when KAT isn’t available) tends to out perform his average stats. I am not say Naz doesn’t have flaws, just that he is better when given consistent minutes and there is data to support that.

Overall, I might be more open to it if we didn’t move Reid or gave only one pick. Or if the protections were top 20 and converted to 2nds.

[minimus]

https://youtu.be/x8Iz6K6s7V0

Siakam, Svi, Banton for Beasley, Prince, Layman, Reid and 2022 FRP and 2024 FRP

Towns/Pascal/Knight
Siakam/Vando/MCD
Edwards/MCD/Okogie
Beverley/Edwards/Bolmaro
DLo/Nowell/JMac

Initial thoughts.

1, Are we sure Toronto is willing to trade him?

2, His contract would make things difficult for us compared to some other guys who get smaller money now (Turner, Wood, Grant) who would get paid later. The big difference being we would need national tv money to make the higher salary sustainable. That money only comes after we prove we are a winner and that takes time.

3. Seems like a bit of an over pay to give 2 FRP and Reid. Reid is 22 and when given minutes, (when KAT isn’t available) tends to out perform his average stats. I am not say Naz doesn’t have flaws, just that he is better when given consistent minutes and there is data to support that.

Overall, I might be more open to it if we didn’t move Reid or gave only one pick. Or if the protections were top 20 and converted to 2nds.

No, I am not sure, maybe they see Siakam/Barnes/Anunoby as their core... But I think that Reid as started С can be at least interesting option for them. I agree about his contract, but he looks like ideal PF for us.

[winforlose]

Minnesota out: Naz Reid, Malik Beasley, Taurean Prince, Nathan Knight, 2022 top 10 protected first round pick, 2024 top 14 protected 1st round pick.

Minnesota in Julius Randle, Obi Toppin, Jericho Sims,

If we need to get a third team into to make it work we only use the out components mentioned above. If you want someone else as part of the three team deal please feel free to include them. Money wise this trade works and save us 4.2 mil. We could use our MLE to sign a 14 player and still have some money left for 10 day players.

Edit to add. I still ask Philly to trade Paul Reed for 2 seconds using our trade exemption.

Starting lineup Dlo, Ant, V8, Randle, Towns
Backup lineup Beverly, Nowell, MCD, Toppin, Reed

Further follow up move for insurance. JO and Layman to Houston for Theis. Houston clear a bad contract from their books. They can either let both players expire, or keep JO with his RFA rights and add a young POA defender.

[minimus]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Okogie, Reid, top10 protected 2022 FRP for Onyeka Okongwu?

Towns/Okongwu/Knight
Vando/MCD/Layman
Edwards/Prince/MCD
Beverley/Edwards/Bolmaro
DLo/Nowell/JMac

[winforlose]

Read on Twitter

?s=20

Okogie, Reid, top10 protected 2022 FRP for Onyeka Okongwu?

Towns/Okongwu/Knight
Siakam/Vando/MCD
Edwards/MCD/Layman
Beverley/Edwards/Bolmaro
DLo/Nowell/JMac

You do realize Siakam isn’t a Timberwolf. Unless you are saying trade for both in which case the money doesn’t work.

As for your idea, I wouldn’t. Naz is a better player than the stats show but needs minutes and consistency to live up to his potential. Any center we put behind Towns will get at most 15 minutes a night (unless of course it is a blowout.) Okongwu doesn’t shoot 3s and thus cannot be on the floor with V8. Moving V8 to the bench is a very bad idea. Thus no.

Also you are once again way overpaying. Naz is probably more valuable by himself given his 3 point shooting, developing shot blocking, inside skills, and experience level.

[minimus]

You do realize Siakam isn’t a Timberwolf. Unless you are saying trade for both in which case the money doesn’t work.

Fixed

Also you are once again way overpaying. Naz is probably more valuable by himself given his 3 point shooting, developing shot blocking, inside skills, and experience level.

I value Reid, but I am worrying about his contract extension. also I think that Reid and Okongwu are different types of bigs. Lets put it this way: I rather have backup C who can play versatile, tough defense AND rebound, than backup C who can occasionally score 20 pts

[shrink]

https://youtu.be/x8Iz6K6s7V0

Siakam, Svi, Banton for Beasley, Prince, Layman, Reid and 2022 FRP and 2024 FRP

Towns/Pascal/Knight
Siakam/Vando/MCD
Edwards/MCD/Okogie
Beverley/Edwards/Bolmaro
DLo/Nowell/JMac

Initial thoughts.

1, Are we sure Toronto is willing to trade him?

2, His contract would make things difficult for us compared to some other guys who get smaller money now (Turner, Wood, Grant) who would get paid later. The big difference being we would need national tv money to make the higher salary sustainable. That money only comes after we prove we are a winner and that takes time.

3. Seems like a bit of an over pay to give 2 FRP and Reid. Reid is 22 and when given minutes, (when KAT isn’t available) tends to out perform his average stats. I am not say Naz doesn’t have flaws, just that he is better when given consistent minutes and there is data to support that.

Overall, I might be more open to it if we didn’t move Reid or gave only one pick. Or if the protections were top 20 and converted to 2nds.

No, I am not sure, maybe they see Siakam/Barnes/Anunoby as their core... But I think that Reid as started С can be at least interesting option for them. I agree about his contract, but he looks like ideal PF for us.

1. I agree that Naz would be a terrific fit in TOR

2. Siakim is on a max deal because he’s a 21 PPG scorer. We don’t need a 21 PPG scorer, so that third max deal gets a little painful. Naz and one 1st is as far as I would go.

3. This seems like a realistic offer that Gupta might make, to try to get the “interim” tag removed from his dream job.

[winforlose]

You do realize Siakam isn’t a Timberwolf. Unless you are saying trade for both in which case the money doesn’t work.

Fixed

Also you are once again way overpaying. Naz is probably more valuable by himself given his 3 point shooting, developing shot blocking, inside skills, and experience level.

I value Reid, but I am worrying about his contract extension. also I think that Reid and Okongwu are different types of bigs. Lets put it this way: I rather have backup C who can play versatile, tough defense AND rebound, than backup C who can occasionally score 20 pts

I 100% disagree. If KAT is out Knight isn’t a good fit to fill in. That means whoever you replace Naz with is going to need to produce offensively. Maybe not to the degree of KAT, but enough that our offense doesn’t collapse with Dlo and Ant under the full weight of opposing defenses. Naz giving you the occasional 20/10 game and passible defense is way more important than a 10/5 game and superior defense. Again he cannot shoot 3s thus he cannot play with V8 thus if he is filling in for KAT our entire starting lineup is screwed.

[winforlose]

Initial thoughts.

1, Are we sure Toronto is willing to trade him?

2, His contract would make things difficult for us compared to some other guys who get smaller money now (Turner, Wood, Grant) who would get paid later. The big difference being we would need national tv money to make the higher salary sustainable. That money only comes after we prove we are a winner and that takes time.

3. Seems like a bit of an over pay to give 2 FRP and Reid. Reid is 22 and when given minutes, (when KAT isn’t available) tends to out perform his average stats. I am not say Naz doesn’t have flaws, just that he is better when given consistent minutes and there is data to support that.

Overall, I might be more open to it if we didn’t move Reid or gave only one pick. Or if the protections were top 20 and converted to 2nds.

No, I am not sure, maybe they see Siakam/Barnes/Anunoby as their core... But I think that Reid as started С can be at least interesting option for them. I agree about his contract, but he looks like ideal PF for us.

1. I agree that Naz would be a terrific fit in TOR

2. Siakim is on a max deal because he’s a 21 PPG scorer. We don’t need a 21 PPG scorer, so that third max deal gets a little painful. Naz and one 1st is as far as I would go.

3. This seems like a realistic offer that Gupta might make, to try to get the “interim” tag removed from his dream job.

If KAT is out and we don’t have a way to make up at least some of his production this team is not only not a playoff team it is near the bottom of the lottery team. Ant isn’t ready yet to lead us anywhere and Dlo’s shooting is as inconsistent as it gets. We desperately need a 20-10 big and anything less is a fail. Especially if we include Naz who might just be a potential 20/10 guy if he had 30 minutes a game 50+ games a year. Siakam is a good fit in that respect, but the issue is he is so expensive. Julius Randle is a better fit and could probably be had for the same package in a 3 way deal. Siakam to NY, Randle and Toppin here.

[raleigh]

Okogie/Layman -for- Kevin Knox would get the Wolves far enough under the luxury tax they could sign someone with that extra roster spot, right?

The Hawks could use a perimeter pest for a few minutes a night, so I was wondering if that saved $ under the tax would be worth it for Minny.

[shrink]

If KAT is out and we don’t have a way to make up at least some of his production this team is not only not a playoff team it is near the bottom of the lottery team. Ant isn’t ready yet to lead us anywhere and Dlo’s shooting is as inconsistent as it gets.

I agree, but if KAT is out, we don’t deserve to be a playoff team. I don’t see the need to spend financial and trade resources on that possibility, when we have other needs that aren’t a contingency plan to a worst case scenario.

[winforlose]

If KAT is out and we don’t have a way to make up at least some of his production this team is not only not a playoff team it is near the bottom of the lottery team. Ant isn’t ready yet to lead us anywhere and Dlo’s shooting is as inconsistent as it gets.

I agree, but if KAT is out, we don’t deserve to be a playoff team. I don’t see the need to spend financial and trade resources on that possibility, when we have other needs that aren’t a contingency plan to a worst case scenario.

That’s the thing though, it isn’t a worse case scenario by any stretch. A worst case scenario is what we already had happen with multiple games without our big 3. Nor is this a binary situation where another 20/10 guy is only useful if KAT is out. Staggering lineups means that starters play with backups. Dlo has been a very stabilizing force with the second unit. Also adding a Julius Randle to the those minutes where KAT is on the bench will increase the production of the second unit. With the starters it takes pressure of KAT and especially off of Ant and Dlo. Having a capable rebounder also increases second chance points. No team gets worse by adding more scoring and rebounding. Moreover, if you are worried about there not being enough shots to go around, remember that our primary bench shooters are leaving in my above trade scenarios. No Reid or Beasley frees up shots for whoever we bring in.

Finally, and I cannot stress this enough. Having a fourth member of the big 3 increases attention on us. Presumably we win more and that also increases attention. Attention means more national games with national tv money. It also means increase in ticket prices and thus more revenue. With more revenue the ownership can afford to go into the tax. If you look at the tax paying teams for the most part they are playoff teams. GSW and the Nets have transformed the league, and unless we find ways to keep up we will become like the Twins doomed to lose to big money teams if/when we make the playoffs.

[winforlose]

Okogie/Layman -for- Kevin Knox would get the Wolves far enough under the luxury tax they could sign someone with that extra roster spot, right?

The Hawks could use a perimeter pest for a few minutes a night, so I was wondering if that saved $ under the tax would be worth it for Minny.

Pretty sure it is too late for that. Once the trade is complete there is a waiting period before the recently traded player can be moved again. Fanspo trade machine says 2 months which misses the trade deadline. Also, not sure we want Knox.

[Biff Cooper]

Okogie/Layman -for- Kevin Knox would get the Wolves far enough under the luxury tax they could sign someone with that extra roster spot, right?

The Hawks could use a perimeter pest for a few minutes a night, so I was wondering if that saved $ under the tax would be worth it for Minny.

We are already able to sign someone to a minimum deal and stay below the luxury tax. Couldn't quite do it when Monroe's 10 day was up, but should be able to now. Guessing we are holding off on committing the last roster spot to someone who is going to ride the pine - and saving it in case someone goes down with an injury, and they will actually be needed on a nightly basis.

[shrink]

Okogie/Layman -for- Kevin Knox would get the Wolves far enough under the luxury tax they could sign someone with that extra roster spot, right?

The Hawks could use a perimeter pest for a few minutes a night, so I was wondering if that saved $ under the tax would be worth it for Minny.

Interesting idea, and I continue to think that the Hawks are one of the best destinations for Josh Okogie, especially with Cam Reddish gone. Tre Young has the highest offensive RAPTOR in the league, and one of the five worst defensive RAPTORs of the players eligible, and that’s why the Hawks team defense is in the cellar. For us, I doubt we are bringing Okogie back next year, so sending him home to Georgia would be a nice thing to do for a guy that’s worked so hard for us. It also demonstrates to other free agents that our team is willing to help players further their careers.

This trade would cut an additional ($8,028,089 - $5,845,979) $2,182,110 from our lux tax payroll. We are only $872,920 underneath right now, so that would give us a lot more flexibility, either to sign ten day contracts or even pick up a vet min guy. I believe it creates a $4,087,904 TPE for Okogie, and it saves the owners about a $1 mil (halfway through the season on paying these players), so I think it would be worthwhile for MIN.

I’m not sure ATL could accept it though. They are only $2,367,012 under the lux threshold themselves, so adding $2,182,110 would severely limit them from making any transactions over the rest of the season. Maybe the deal could be expanded, or a third team introduced, that doesn’t bite the Hawks this hard financially?

Good idea, Raleigh.