Game 42: Pistons (10-31) vs. Suns (32-9) - Jan. 16 1:00 PM EST

[bstein14]

Remarkable how many people here believe they know better than an NBA coach and GM, yet aren't NBA coaches or GM's. Go figure.

I'm not saying I know more than our coach or our GM. Everyone can see how Killian played last season and everyone knows he didn't come into this season earning the starting job either it was gifted to him last year and this year based on where we drafted him and the fact that we're in a period of playing the game to develop young players and winning is secondary. Hayes is getting a chance because of where the team that drafted him is at as a franchise, which is fine, but that only lasts for so long.

Mike Malone got to Denver and they had a young team and they won 33 games, 40 games, 46 games (still missed the playoffs), and 54 games.

He talked about Bol Bol recently and said that his first few years as a coach in Denver he could play young guys and they could make mistakes and players were developing and able to keep playing. With Bol Bol drafted in 2019 he mentioned that he can no longer play projects because every game is important in trying to get home court advantage so Bol Bol is only going to get minutes in blowouts or if several other players are out/injured/foul trouble, etc. It's going to be a similar shift for us next season most likely. Best case scenario is that Hayes improves himself to the point that he is out there helping us try to win games next season.

You literally keep burying your own argument. "Hayes didn't earn the starting job coming into the season." AND NO ONE ELSE DID, EITHER. And considering the only other player in this debate would be Saben Lee, who also hasn't "earned" the starting PG slot, your point in that regard has zero merit. When you draft a player at 7 to be your PG of the future then draft another player at 38 the next year who doesn't clearly outshine your planned PG of the future, it's not "gifting" the starting job to the PG of the future when you start him. That's what most of us call "the plan." And yes, like any other player Hayes' chance at being a starter only last so long, and like you yourself just said, right now that's fine. So you gripe because Hayes is still starting then go on to say it's fine for now.

And yes, you ARE saying you know better than the coach and GM when you use terms like "everyone can see" and "everyone knows" because you're classifying your own opinion as "everyone," i.e. giving it the credence of being the opinion of the masses which conflicts with the coach and GM, thus it must be right/better/smarter. Except as has been clearly demonstrated here it's not even the majority opinion of this board; it's just your opinion (well, yours and a few other people). Ergo, you know better than the coach and GM.

I told you I'd get mileage out of this.

Look at how Saben Lee played as a rookie and how Killian played as a rookie. Saben was lightyears ahead of Lee last season.

Saben Lee was better in summer league. Our 2nd leading scorer and 40% from three compared to Hayes' 18%. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/summer/1/NBA-Summer-League/47/stats/Detroit-Pistons/8/Averages/All/per/All/desc/1/Summer_League

Saben was much better in the preseason for us this season as well. Looks at the stats. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/preseason/team/Detroit-Pistons/8/stats

Overall Saben outplayed him the entire way right up to being the guy going to the G League, because he was a 2nd rounder. If Saben was gifted the role that Hayes has been gifted he would likely be far beyond where Killian is right now. It's really the type of thing that leads to locker room issues. Giving a player that isn't deserving major minutes while guys outplaying him in practice and at every other chance are glued to the bench. These are vets that are sitting because they are accepting that role coming in. These are young guys trying to make a name for themselves in the league that are getting screwed out of minutes and an opportunity to play and that's what Diallo was upset earlier this year on the bench and that's why he'll likely be upset again if Casey sends him to the bench and keeps Hayes in the starting lineup when Grant comes back.

[DetroitSho]

Imagine being the one willing to die on the Saben freaking Lee hill. What is going on here?

Cue the AI practice rant and replace "practice" with "Saben Lee".

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[Manocad]

The argument shouldn’t be Killian or Lee?

It should be, who is going to be our long-term PG? Since I doubt it’s either Killian or Lee, who will it be?

Cade?

Do we try to get a PG back in a Grant trade?

Do we try to get a PG back in a KO trade?

Do we target Ivey in the draft?

That's a fair argument. The only reason why this debate will never die (Lord please make it stop) is because apparently there's people in this forum that think either Lee and/or Joseph have outplayed Killian.

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Absolutely fair and an argument I'd never dispute. And until that question is answered, you continue to develop either Killian or Lee--or attempt to, anyway--because just saying "Nope, not these guys, stick them on the end of the bench, no sense giving them starting minutes" is ridiculous.

As I've said before, if the organization determines that the best path to success is to draft Ivey and put him next to Cade, then by all means he should start--PERIOD. And he should continue to start for something more than 67 games unless he falls flat on his face while Killian or Lee absolutely blast off while playing bench minutes. That's the key part of the "Killian shouldn't start" argument that gets brought up and generally ignored by the Killian detractors; ain't nobody blasting off behind him.

[Manocad]

Imagine being the one willing to die on the Saben freaking Lee hill. What is going on here?

Cue the AI practice rant and replace "practice" with "Saben Lee".

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I have ceased even trying to understand. Every argument presented is a rehashing of the past.

[Manocad]

I'm not saying I know more than our coach or our GM. Everyone can see how Killian played last season and everyone knows he didn't come into this season earning the starting job either it was gifted to him last year and this year based on where we drafted him and the fact that we're in a period of playing the game to develop young players and winning is secondary. Hayes is getting a chance because of where the team that drafted him is at as a franchise, which is fine, but that only lasts for so long.

Mike Malone got to Denver and they had a young team and they won 33 games, 40 games, 46 games (still missed the playoffs), and 54 games.

He talked about Bol Bol recently and said that his first few years as a coach in Denver he could play young guys and they could make mistakes and players were developing and able to keep playing. With Bol Bol drafted in 2019 he mentioned that he can no longer play projects because every game is important in trying to get home court advantage so Bol Bol is only going to get minutes in blowouts or if several other players are out/injured/foul trouble, etc. It's going to be a similar shift for us next season most likely. Best case scenario is that Hayes improves himself to the point that he is out there helping us try to win games next season.

You literally keep burying your own argument. "Hayes didn't earn the starting job coming into the season." AND NO ONE ELSE DID, EITHER. And considering the only other player in this debate would be Saben Lee, who also hasn't "earned" the starting PG slot, your point in that regard has zero merit. When you draft a player at 7 to be your PG of the future then draft another player at 38 the next year who doesn't clearly outshine your planned PG of the future, it's not "gifting" the starting job to the PG of the future when you start him. That's what most of us call "the plan." And yes, like any other player Hayes' chance at being a starter only last so long, and like you yourself just said, right now that's fine. So you gripe because Hayes is still starting then go on to say it's fine for now.

And yes, you ARE saying you know better than the coach and GM when you use terms like "everyone can see" and "everyone knows" because you're classifying your own opinion as "everyone," i.e. giving it the credence of being the opinion of the masses which conflicts with the coach and GM, thus it must be right/better/smarter. Except as has been clearly demonstrated here it's not even the majority opinion of this board; it's just your opinion (well, yours and a few other people). Ergo, you know better than the coach and GM.

I told you I'd get mileage out of this.

Look at how Saben Lee played as a rookie and how Killian played as a rookie. Saben was lightyears ahead of Lee last season.

Saben Lee was better in summer league. Our 2nd leading scorer and 40% from three compared to Hayes' 18%. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/summer/1/NBA-Summer-League/47/stats/Detroit-Pistons/8/Averages/All/per/All/desc/1/Summer_League

Saben was much better in the preseason for us this season as well. Looks at the stats. https://basketball.realgm.com/nba/preseason/team/Detroit-Pistons/8/stats

Overall Saben outplayed him the entire way right up to being the guy going to the G League, because he was a 2nd rounder. If Saben was gifted the role that Hayes has been gifted he would likely be far beyond where Killian is right now. It's really the type of thing that leads to locker room issues. Giving a player that isn't deserving major minutes while guys outplaying him in practice and at every other chance are glued to the bench. These are vets that are sitting because they are accepting that role coming in. These are young guys trying to make a name for themselves in the league that are getting screwed out of minutes and an opportunity to play and that's what Diallo was upset earlier this year on the bench and that's why he'll likely be upset again if Casey sends him to the bench and keeps Hayes in the starting lineup when Grant comes back.

Now you're presenting pre-season and summer league stats to make your argument?

Saben has been playing 16 MPG while Killian has been playing 26 MPG. That's not exactly rotting on the bench. And now you're projecting a threat of locker room issues? Again, if you want Diallo starting in Hayes' place, that's a different discussion. It has no bearing whatsoever on Hayes starting over Lee. Especially since right now Diallo IS starting; you don't even have an argument at all on that front until he isn't.

You go ahead and call Casey and Weaver, tell them that Hayes doesn't "deserve" to start and that he's being "gifted" minutes because Lee is outplaying him--albeit somewhere in the past, not currently in games--and yet he remains "glued to the bench." I'm sure they'll be all ears.

Oh wait--you said Hayes starting is fine for now until his chance at being a starting PG has run out...which it hasn't.

[zeebneeb]

Weird hill to die on. The Saben Lee Hill.

[Piston Pete]

Killian is terrible on offense. But has great size for a PG and plays strong D. He looks to pass much more than to score.

Lee is much better offensively, but is lesser on the defensive side. He looks to score more than pass.

I say which one we keep to be our long-term backup depends on who we get to be our long-term starter. Until that time, I can’t decide who we should keep.

Thus, I think we should be splitting their times and looking to develop them both.

PG - Hayes (20) / Lee (20) / Cade (8)

[flow]

Remarkable how many people here believe they know better than an NBA coach and GM, yet aren't NBA coaches or GM's. Go figure.

Ridiculous.

Allow me to introduce you to a sports team's message board. Any sports team. This is a place where fans are invited to congregate, vent, complain about, and challenge decisions of their team's coach, gm, owner & players. Most fans, however knowledgeable of the game & invested in their team they may be, have never been any of those things. But that matters not. This is their place to voice their opinions. And some coaches and GM's do actually suck at their jobs & make poor decisions.

Which brings us to the Detroit Pistons. Not only a bad team with a bad coach presently, but a team that hasn't had a decent coach since the 2007/08 season. Have you used that same senseless line in an effort to demean posters for 14 years while the team has continued to lose games and change coaches all along the way?

[Piston Pete]

Remarkable how many people here believe they know better than an NBA coach and GM, yet aren't NBA coaches or GM's. Go figure.

Ridiculous.

Allow me to introduce you to a sports team's message board. Any sports team. This is a place where fans are invited to congregate, vent, complain about, and challenge decisions of their team's coach, gm, owner & players. Most fans, however knowledgeable of the game & invested in their team they may be, have never been any of those things. But that matters not. This is their place to voice their opinions. And some coaches and GM's do actually suck at their jobs & make poor decisions.

Which brings us to the Detroit Pistons. Not only a bad team with a bad coach presently, but a team that hasn't had a decent coach since the 2007/08 season. Have you used that same senseless line in an effort to demean posters for 14 years while the team has continued to lose games and change coaches all along the way?

And honestly, if your argument is, “well the coaches and GM think this player is better, and they know more than you,” then you really haven’t made an argument at all.

[mattao313]

Remarkable how many people here believe they know better than an NBA coach and GM, yet aren't NBA coaches or GM's. Go figure.

Ridiculous.

Allow me to introduce you to a sports team's message board. Any sports team. This is a place where fans are invited to congregate, vent, complain about, and challenge decisions of their team's coach, gm, owner & players. Most fans, however knowledgeable of the game & invested in their team they may be, have never been any of those things. But that matters not. This is their place to voice their opinions. And some coaches and GM's do actually suck at their jobs & make poor decisions.

Which brings us to the Detroit Pistons. Not only a bad team with a bad coach presently, but a team that hasn't had a decent coach since the 2007/08 season. Have you used that same senseless line in an effort to demean posters for 14 years while the team has continued to lose games and change coaches all along the way?

And honestly, if your argument is, “well the coaches and GM think this player is better, and they know more than you,” then you really haven’t made an argument at all.

Its a silly argument it's been plenty of terrible GMs and bad decisions made by them. Remember Billy King? Or that terrible Noah deal the Knicks signed him to? Just cause someone has a job doesn't mean they're good at it.

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[Manocad]

Ridiculous.

Allow me to introduce you to a sports team's message board. Any sports team. This is a place where fans are invited to congregate, vent, complain about, and challenge decisions of their team's coach, gm, owner & players. Most fans, however knowledgeable of the game & invested in their team they may be, have never been any of those things. But that matters not. This is their place to voice their opinions. And some coaches and GM's do actually suck at their jobs & make poor decisions.

Which brings us to the Detroit Pistons. Not only a bad team with a bad coach presently, but a team that hasn't had a decent coach since the 2007/08 season. Have you used that same senseless line in an effort to demean posters for 14 years while the team has continued to lose games and change coaches all along the way?

And honestly, if your argument is, “well the coaches and GM think this player is better, and they know more than you,” then you really haven’t made an argument at all.

Its a silly argument it's been plenty of terrible GMs and bad decisions made by them. Remember Billy King? Or that terrible Noah deal the Knicks signed him to? Just cause someone has a job doesn't mean they're good at it.

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What all of you are missing is that a predominant thought presented in this forum by some is that Weaver and Casey ARE idiots/know less than the poster BECAUSE Casey/Weaver don't do what the poster believes they should. Which by your logic, is no argument.

I'll never use "the coach knows more than you so his decision is better" as an argument. I will however ALWAYS use "I'll trust his judgement over yours because he IS a coach/GM" in general, and only when the purported idea is that the coach/GM is an idiot, or in this particular case "gifting" a position to Hayes for no logical reason, BECAUSE the coach/GM ISN'T doing what the poster thinks should be done. On this particular topic I've pretty clearly spelled out a comprehensive argument. You may not agree with the argument but I didn't use "since your idea isn't what the coach/GM is going with, it's not a good argument" as a basis in any way.

Are coaches and GM's infallible? Of course not. But pointing out that they do make mistakes is by no means a justification that a poster here knows better on any given point. Again, by your own logic that's not an argument.

I don't demean people at all. I address arguments. Let me introduce you to a sports team's message board...THAT'S HOW IT WORKS.

[Manocad]

Killian is terrible on offense. But has great size for a PG and plays strong D. He looks to pass much more than to score.

Lee is much better offensively, but is lesser on the defensive side. He looks to score more than pass.

I say which one we keep to be our long-term backup depends on who we get to be our long-term starter. Until that time, I can’t decide who we should keep.

Thus, I think we should be splitting their times and looking to develop them both.

PG - Hayes (20) / Lee (20) / Cade (8)

Yeah, but who starts?

THAT'S WHAT'S IMPORTANT! Can't have a hair-pulling bout in the locker room.

[Manocad]

Weird hill to die on. The Saben Lee Hill.

I did say I was gonna get some mileage outta this one, and that's exactly why.

[Piston Pete]

Killian is terrible on offense. But has great size for a PG and plays strong D. He looks to pass much more than to score.

Lee is much better offensively, but is lesser on the defensive side. He looks to score more than pass.

I say which one we keep to be our long-term backup depends on who we get to be our long-term starter. Until that time, I can’t decide who we should keep.

Thus, I think we should be splitting their times and looking to develop them both.

PG - Hayes (20) / Lee (20) / Cade (8)

Yeah, but who starts?

THAT'S WHAT'S IMPORTANT! Can't have a hair-pulling bout in the locker room.

In the above scenario, it doesn’t matter until one or the other starts proving more worthy - if that ever happens. That’s kind of the point - play them equally until one starts clicking. IMO, CoJo should be traded ASAP as he shouldn’t get any minutes here.

[Manocad]

Killian is terrible on offense. But has great size for a PG and plays strong D. He looks to pass much more than to score.

Lee is much better offensively, but is lesser on the defensive side. He looks to score more than pass.

I say which one we keep to be our long-term backup depends on who we get to be our long-term starter. Until that time, I can’t decide who we should keep.

Thus, I think we should be splitting their times and looking to develop them both.

PG - Hayes (20) / Lee (20) / Cade (8)

Yeah, but who starts?

THAT'S WHAT'S IMPORTANT! Can't have a hair-pulling bout in the locker room.

In the above scenario, it doesn’t matter until one or the other starts proving more worthy - if that ever happens. That’s kind of the point - play them equally until one starts clicking. IMO, CoJo should be traded ASAP as he shouldn’t get any minutes here.

It actually does matter since part of the evaluation is how they play with the other starters; that's the point of this. Determining which player is a better fit playing with the other guys who will pull the bulk of the minutes (and thus would pull the bulk of the PG minutes). Now, certainly the coach could juggle Hayes and Lee so they both get equal time with the starters and the bench unit. And that does happen a little; there always seems to be a little bit of crossover where every player on the team has at one time or another played with either a primarily bench unit or with a primarily starters unit. I'm not an NBA coach so I can't say how the other players would respond to that, or if they'd even care at all. But I could see starting one or the other and sticking with it until it's clear it's working/not working being preferred by the players over a back-and-forth until one stands out scenario.

[Kalamazoo317]

Hayes just has more of an NBA body and a higher ceiling. Unless Lee becomes an elite outside shooter (which he's shown no likelihood of doing) he's not a real rotational piece on a championship team. Once Frank gets back, I expect he'll get buried on the bench again.

[Manocad]

Hayes just has more of an NBA body and a higher ceiling. Unless Lee becomes an elite outside shooter (which he's shown no likelihood of doing) he's not a real rotational piece on a championship team. Once Frank gets back, I expect he'll get buried on the bench again.

It's to the point now where the argument that Lee is a much better scorer looks really overstated. His point totals in 23 games this season are 2, 0, 1, 3, 4, 0, 12 (5-15, 29 mins), 6, 9, 2, 17 (7-13, 27 mins), 11 (3-7, 20 mins), 4, 3, 16 (7-15, 25 mins), 2, 7, 14 (4-7,15.5 mins), 6, 2, 7, 3,2. A few flashes of scoring here and there but nothing that says "Oh, yeah--he's a scorer." He's shooting 38.5%/27.3% for the season while Hayes is shooting 34.7%/30.0% and Lee is supposedly the much better offensive player? Come on.

By comparison, Hayes' point totals are 0, 2, 12 (4-11, 26.5 mins), 9, 3, 6, 8, 10 (4-8, 28.5 mins), 4, 5, 13 (4-7, 32 mins), 0, 4, 3, 11 (3-8, 31 mins), 10 (4-9, 33 mins), 9, 4, 7, 6, 2, 8, 11 (3-7, 21 mins), 5, 8, 5, 5, 5, 8, 5, 9.

PER numbers for 2021-22:
Hayes: 8.8 pts on 9.2 FGA, 4.3 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.6 blocks and 2.2 TO's
Lee: 13.2 pts on 11.6 FGA, 5.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 2.5 steals, 0.8 blocks and 2.0 TO's

Now, this is the stat line that our Lee die-harder loves to pump showing that Lee has "earned" a starting spot while Hayes hasn't. As I've stated, Hayes is playing against primarily opposing starters while Lee is primarily playing against opposing benches. None of this points to Lee being a much better offensive player than Hayes, only that he tries to score more--as well he should, given the unit he's playing with.

I agree that for pure scoring ability Frank is better than Lee; Hayes too for that matter. 16.9 pts on 14.7 FGA at 40.4%/33.3%. He doesn't have Lee's athleticism but he's craftier going to the hoop. Lee never saw traffic around the hoop that he didn't think he could dunk on.

[MotownMadness]

Hayes just has more of an NBA body and a higher ceiling. Unless Lee becomes an elite outside shooter (which he's shown no likelihood of doing) he's not a real rotational piece on a championship team. Once Frank gets back, I expect he'll get buried on the bench again.

It's to the point now where the argument that Lee is a much better scorer looks really overstated. His point totals in 23 games this season are 2, 0, 1, 3, 4, 0, 12 (5-15, 29 mins), 6, 9, 2, 17 (7-13, 27 mins), 11 (3-7, 20 mins), 4, 3, 16 (7-15, 25 mins), 2, 7, 14 (4-7,15.5 mins), 6, 2, 7, 3,2. A few flashes of scoring here and there but nothing that says "Oh, yeah--he's a scorer." He's shooting 38.5%/27.3% for the season while Hayes is shooting 34.7%/30.0% and Lee is supposedly the much better offensive player? Come on.

By comparison, Hayes' point totals are 0, 2, 12 (4-11, 26.5 mins), 9, 3, 6, 8, 10 (4-8, 28.5 mins), 4, 5, 13 (4-7, 32 mins), 0, 4, 3, 11 (3-8, 31 mins), 10 (4-9, 33 mins), 9, 4, 7, 6, 2, 8, 11 (3-7, 21 mins), 5, 8, 5, 5, 5, 8, 5, 9.

PER numbers for 2021-22:
Hayes: 8.8 pts on 9.2 FGA, 4.3 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.6 blocks and 2.2 TO's
Lee: 13.2 pts on 11.6 FGA, 5.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 2.5 steals, 0.8 blocks and 2.0 TO's

Now, this is the stat line that our Lee die-harder loves to pump showing that Lee has "earned" a starting spot while Hayes hasn't. As I've stated, Hayes is playing against primarily opposing starters while Lee is primarily playing against opposing benches. None of this points to Lee being a much better offensive player than Hayes, only that he tries to score more--as well he should, given the unit he's playing with.

I agree that for pure scoring ability Frank is better than Lee; Hayes too for that matter. 16.9 pts on 14.7 FGA at 40.4%/33.3%. He doesn't have Lee's athleticism but he's craftier going to the hoop. Lee never saw traffic around the hoop that he didn't think he could dunk on.

Hayes has honestly seemed to be more aggressive since that big debate thread. Not necessarily efficient but at least moving around more and trying to score. It's that just floating around stuff looking for a couple shots and 3 assist that were a waste of time.

I also noticed though guys like Jackson and especially Diallo are starting to cut to the basket more even when Killian is driving. He's such a high IQ passer that he threads the needle when they do.

Hopefully Hayes puts it together efficiently offensively cause he's a promising defender and playmaker.

[Manocad]

Hayes just has more of an NBA body and a higher ceiling. Unless Lee becomes an elite outside shooter (which he's shown no likelihood of doing) he's not a real rotational piece on a championship team. Once Frank gets back, I expect he'll get buried on the bench again.

It's to the point now where the argument that Lee is a much better scorer looks really overstated. His point totals in 23 games this season are 2, 0, 1, 3, 4, 0, 12 (5-15, 29 mins), 6, 9, 2, 17 (7-13, 27 mins), 11 (3-7, 20 mins), 4, 3, 16 (7-15, 25 mins), 2, 7, 14 (4-7,15.5 mins), 6, 2, 7, 3,2. A few flashes of scoring here and there but nothing that says "Oh, yeah--he's a scorer." He's shooting 38.5%/27.3% for the season while Hayes is shooting 34.7%/30.0% and Lee is supposedly the much better offensive player? Come on.

By comparison, Hayes' point totals are 0, 2, 12 (4-11, 26.5 mins), 9, 3, 6, 8, 10 (4-8, 28.5 mins), 4, 5, 13 (4-7, 32 mins), 0, 4, 3, 11 (3-8, 31 mins), 10 (4-9, 33 mins), 9, 4, 7, 6, 2, 8, 11 (3-7, 21 mins), 5, 8, 5, 5, 5, 8, 5, 9.

PER numbers for 2021-22:
Hayes: 8.8 pts on 9.2 FGA, 4.3 rebounds, 5.2 assists, 1.7 steals, 0.6 blocks and 2.2 TO's
Lee: 13.2 pts on 11.6 FGA, 5.4 rebounds, 5.7 assists, 2.5 steals, 0.8 blocks and 2.0 TO's

Now, this is the stat line that our Lee die-harder loves to pump showing that Lee has "earned" a starting spot while Hayes hasn't. As I've stated, Hayes is playing against primarily opposing starters while Lee is primarily playing against opposing benches. None of this points to Lee being a much better offensive player than Hayes, only that he tries to score more--as well he should, given the unit he's playing with.

I agree that for pure scoring ability Frank is better than Lee; Hayes too for that matter. 16.9 pts on 14.7 FGA at 40.4%/33.3%. He doesn't have Lee's athleticism but he's craftier going to the hoop. Lee never saw traffic around the hoop that he didn't think he could dunk on.

Hayes has honestly seemed to be more aggressive since that big debate thread. Not necessarily efficient but at least moving around more and trying to score. It's that just floating around stuff looking for a couple shots and 3 assist that were a waste of time.

I also noticed though guys like Jackson and especially Diallo are starting to cut to the basket more even when Killian is driving. He's such a high IQ passer that he threads the needle when they do.

Hopefully Hayes puts it together efficiently offensively cause he's a promising defender and playmaker.

Yeah, Hayes has definitely become more aggressive from a scoring standpoint. Doesn't always work out but he's definitely trying.

[Canadafan]

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Pretty insane Cade got kicked out compared to this lol