Please take Vucevic back

[Wingy]

Thanks for the insights Magic fans.

The biggest gripe that’s driving us nuts is he simply isn’t putting the ball in the hoop. Counting stats aside, some of the lowest shooting %s of his entire career. If he was shooting around his higher levels, I’m sure most would let other ills slide a lot more easily.

Lots of wide open 3s, jumpers off pnp....and worst of all. Missed bunnies. Little 4-6 foot or so mini hooks that he just clangs repeatedly. I think most of us thought those were gonna be automatic from a 2x all star. So many bricks. I think “thelead” was visiting us and said missing all the short bunnies is pretty typical. That poster was drunk though...right...right...???

We’ve definitely disliked the horrible body language and pouting when things aren’t going his way. It’s seen a lot during brick fests.

All that said, he has at least been a great teammate, and he has sacrificed the most of our mini-big 3. We’ll never know the exact amount, but along with the money, most fans believe he had at least some level of influence on DeMar joining us going back to being college teammates.

I’m still glad we did it. We needed some credibility...to be seen as relevant again. Getting Vuc was the first flare in the air on that. But man o man. I wish he’d start hitting open and short looks a lot more often.

He bum slayed the Pistons big time in a recent blowout (out scored them in the 3rd I believe). Never consistently as soon as he joined us/Zach, but I thought we’d see a lot more spurts of _that_ guy. Alas, we’ve all pretty much lowered expectations.

[Optimus_Steel]

Thanks for the insights Magic fans.

The biggest gripe that’s driving us nuts is he simply isn’t putting the ball in the hoop. Counting stats aside, some of the lowest shooting %s of his entire career. If he was shooting around his higher levels, I’m sure most would let other ills slide a lot more easily.

Lots of wide open 3s, jumpers off pnp....and worst of all. Missed bunnies. Little 4-6 foot or so mini hooks that he just clangs repeatedly. I think most of us thought those were gonna be automatic from a 2x all star. So many bricks. I think “thelead” was visiting us and said missing all the short bunnies is pretty typical. That poster was drunk though...right...right...???

We’ve definitely disliked the horrible body language and pouting when things aren’t going his way. It’s seen a lot during brick fests.

All that said, he has at least been a great teammate, and he has sacrificed the most of our mini-big 3. We’ll never know the exact amount, but along with the money, most fans believe he had at least some level of influence on DeMar joining us going back to being college teammates.

I’m still glad we did it. We needed some credibility...to be seen as relevant again. Getting Vuc was the first flare in the air on that. But man o man. I wish he’d start hitting open and short looks a lot more often.

He bum slayed the Pistons big time in a recent blowout (out scored them in the 3rd I believe). Never consistently as soon as he joined us/Zach, but I thought we’d see a lot more spurts of _that_ guy. Alas, we’ve all pretty much lowered expectations.

I got to imagine the Covid thing got him all out of sorts. He is too skilled and plays too hard for me to think his struggles are long term.

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[VFX]

This thread made me smile. Thanks.

[AaronB]

Has he done the thing where an undersized back-up center has gotten the best of him multiple possessions so he gets mad, throws a tantrum (usually throws the ball), gets a tech, and mentally checks out the rest of the game? If not - you're in for a treat yet! He's got a weird case of short man syndrome.

Happy with WCJ + picks.

Let's ignore Carter for a second. If the Bulls had Wagner and the Magic had Vučević, would Orlando swap? As the answer is yes, really Carter and another FRP are bonuses in this conversation.


..

You're obviously correct...it was a good deal even BEFORE the CHI pick was better than expected and, even on top of that, BEFORE Wagner outplayed his draft spot. NO DEBATE...great deal for ORL...but why must people find it impossible to appreciate Vuc for what he was? He was a helluva player who did what he could for us in a mature professional manner and yet, people here have to prolong some BS narrative that he was in any way difficult, lazy, whiny...it's sad and pathetic. Stop for a minute -why do YOU think YOU are a better judge of basketball value than the NBA F**king COACHES who twice voted him onto the All-Star roster?

Move on you sad losers. A new era is upon us...somebody else who knows a lot more than you made that trade for CHI. Doesn't make it a big win for them, but obviously there's some basis for the move that you can't appreciate. Pepe's soliloquy above is dead on...He gave us 22 & 12 w/40% from 3 because that's what we needed. If he was doing that in CHI (or asked to) they'd be as limited as we were (they're not).

Well said ... the only consideration that I would provide is this question: how much responsibility does Vuc bear in the implementation of buddy ball? That was the very worst form of basketball that I have ever seen and he declines a few rings in my evaluation due to the practice of buddy ball. Not sure if that is fair or not.

[MagicStarwipe]

Let's ignore Carter for a second. If the Bulls had Wagner and the Magic had Vučević, would Orlando swap? As the answer is yes, really Carter and another FRP are bonuses in this conversation.


..

You're obviously correct...it was a good deal even BEFORE the CHI pick was better than expected and, even on top of that, BEFORE Wagner outplayed his draft spot. NO DEBATE...great deal for ORL...but why must people find it impossible to appreciate Vuc for what he was? He was a helluva player who did what he could for us in a mature professional manner and yet, people here have to prolong some BS narrative that he was in any way difficult, lazy, whiny...it's sad and pathetic. Stop for a minute -why do YOU think YOU are a better judge of basketball value than the NBA F**king COACHES who twice voted him onto the All-Star roster?

Move on you sad losers. A new era is upon us...somebody else who knows a lot more than you made that trade for CHI. Doesn't make it a big win for them, but obviously there's some basis for the move that you can't appreciate. Pepe's soliloquy above is dead on...He gave us 22 & 12 w/40% from 3 because that's what we needed. If he was doing that in CHI (or asked to) they'd be as limited as we were (they're not).

Well said ... the only consideration that I would provide is this question: how much responsibility does Vuc bear in the implementation of buddy ball? That was the very worst form of basketball that I have ever seen and he declines a few rings in my evaluation due to the practice of buddy ball. Not sure if that is fair or not.

That was more of a Fournier thing where he'd have Vuc blinders on. Vuc was an equal opportunity passer.

[FFBlitzace]

I can only speak for myself, but I have not once, to my recollection, gone out of my way to bring up Vuc and trash him in any way since we traded him. He's gone now, that era is over. He's a good guy and, yes, a good player (I never said he wasn't), but he was always going to be treated as more than he was if he stayed here. It had to be broken up. Another team can change his role, there's no history or time investment there. But we would have never changed his role, he was too firmly entrenched here.

[Knightro]

Vucevic is a nice guy and a skilled player. But he was badly miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations.

He's never been a good rim protector and he has such a miniscule free throw rate that it absolutely destroys his offensive efficiency. It's basically impossible for him to be an above average offensive player from efficiency standpoint even though he's generally been a very good shotmaker. His career TS% is only .538.

The problem that Chicago is now finding out is that it can be a very difficult adjustment for guys to go from the no questions asked No. 1 option offensively with the freedom to post a 28-29 USG% for years to being asked to become the No. 3 option with just a 23 USG%.

And generally speaking, when your center *isn't* going to be one of your top two guys offensively, you really want him to be more of a defensive presence who also isn't making $25M AAV.

[thelead]

Vucevic is a nice guy and a skilled player. But he was badly miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations.

He's never been a good rim protector and he has such a miniscule free throw rate that it absolutely destroys his offensive efficiency. It's basically impossible for him to be an above average offensive player from efficiency standpoint even though he's generally been a very good shotmaker. His career TS% is only .538.

The problem that Chicago is now finding out is that it can be a very difficult adjustment for guys to go from the no questions asked No. 1 option offensive with the freedom to post a 28-29 USG% to the No. 3 option with a 23 USG%.

And generally speaking, when your center *isn't* going to be one of your top two guys offensive, you really want him to be more of a defensive presence who also isn't making $25M AAV.

HATER

[Skybox]

Vucevic is a nice guy and a skilled player. But he was badly miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations.

The best offensive player on the roster is typically falling into that role, regardless of how well-suited they are for it. Right now, it's Cole...so everybody slams him for being "miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations"...just fan foolishness, blaming the best option on a weak team for being unworthy of being the best option on a good team. What's a coach to do? If anything, blame the GM for not having a true star.

Cole gets love and hate for being passionate and fiery, Vuc gets hate for being upset and slamming the ball when he's frustrated (probably partly with lack of help). Luka gets love for crying about every call. LBJ gets hate for crying about every call. Moe Wagner gets love from ORL for being an "agitator" but probably laughed at league-wide (and by his brother )..Just get me a star already - so we can stop this bored overanalysis of basically nothing.

[swarlesbarkley]

Vucevic is a nice guy and a skilled player. But he was badly miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations.

The best offensive player on the roster is typically falling into that role, regardless of how well-suited they are for it. Right now, it's Cole...so everybody slams him for being "miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations"...just fan foolishness, blaming the best option on a weak team for being unworthy of being the best option on a good team. What's a coach to do? If anything, blame the GM for not having a true star.

Cole gets love and hate for being passionate and fiery, Vuc gets hate for being upset and slamming the ball when he's frustrated (probably partly with lack of help). Luka gets love for crying about every call. LBJ gets hate for crying about every call. Moe Wagner gets love from ORL for being an "agitator" but probably laughed at league-wide (and by his brother )..Just get me a star already - so we can stop this bored overanalysis of basically nothing.

This seems like revisionist history... Vuc got upset most times when a lesser player got the best of him, not when he had a lack of help. I can remember Thomas Bryant in particular getting under his skin and forcing him to mentally check out of a game.

Cole seems to use his fire and passion to get pumped up for the competition, not in reaction to the competition.

[thelead]

Vucevic is a nice guy and a skilled player. But he was badly miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations.

The best offensive player on the roster is typically falling into that role, regardless of how well-suited they are for it. Right now, it's Cole...so everybody slams him for being "miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations"...just fan foolishness, blaming the best option on a weak team for being unworthy of being the best option on a good team. What's a coach to do? If anything, blame the GM for not having a true star.

Cole gets love and hate for being passionate and fiery, Vuc gets hate for being upset and slamming the ball when he's frustrated (probably partly with lack of help). Luka gets love for crying about every call. LBJ gets hate for crying about every call. Moe Wagner gets love from ORL for being an "agitator" but probably laughed at league-wide (and by his brother )..Just get me a star already - so we can stop this bored overanalysis of basically nothing.

Every player has fans that won't tolerate 'hate' being thrown at 'their' guy... Knightro literally just posted stats and you try to shut down stats.

[Wingy]

I got to imagine the Covid thing got him all out of sorts. He is too skilled and plays too hard for me to think his struggles are long term.

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I may be a tiny bit off, but IIRC, he was actually horrid almost all year leading up to covid. He had a bit of a bounce back after covid. He’s had a few good shooting games mixed in lately, but a lot of horrid in there too. Just easy good looks you’d expect a recent, offensive-minded all star to nail on a regular basis.

Gotta be mental. As Knightro said, I think a big part is adjusting to a new role, and playing with all stars for the first time. He’s also used as a passing hub a lot, and doesn’t get a lot of post ups (and bricks so much on the ones he gets).

Also dealing with spotlight and expectations...I’d guess that’s part of the mental struggle. It’s different being on a top tier conference team in a larger market vs bottom-middling in a smaller market.

Hopefully he’s feeling comfortable by playoff time, because we definitely need him to make any real noise.

[Bensational]

I don’t think the volume or lack of touches is the problem for Vuc. He is just a very fragile player when it comes to pressure and with the Bulls being #1 in the East now, that’s a lot more pressure and more teams getting up to play you seriously.

We had these debates endlessly when he was on Orlando and it was always blamed on his lack of help. But if you simply go back and check the stats Vuc has a consistent trend of becoming much less efficient at the end of games (when the pressure is on) and in the playoffs, when the pressure was on again. He would rush and miss shots he generally made at a high clip throughout the rest of the game.

I haven’t kept tabs of his recent play in Chicago, but is he at least able to start decently for the first 3 quarters before his offense falls apart?

Either way, his underperformance aside, he’s clearly helping make an impact because DeRozan and Ball don’t push LaVine to #1 in the East alone.

[Bergmaniac]

I don’t think the volume or lack of touches is the problem for Vuc. He is just a very fragile player when it comes to pressure and with the Bulls being #1 in the East now, that’s a lot more pressure and more teams getting up to play you seriously.

We had these debates endlessly when he was on Orlando and it was always blamed on his lack of help. But if you simply go back and check the stats Vuc has a consistent trend of becoming much less efficient at the end of games (when the pressure is on) and in the playoffs, when the pressure was on again.

Not really, he has been in the playoffs twice, the first time he struggled mightily, the second time he was great and more efficient than he has ever been in the regular season. So there is no such "consistent trend".

[UCF]

There’s a reason a lot of us weren’t upset he was traded. Great guy but a role player at best imo.

[Skybox]

Vucevic is a nice guy and a skilled player. But he was badly miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations.

The best offensive player on the roster is typically falling into that role, regardless of how well-suited they are for it. Right now, it's Cole...so everybody slams him for being "miscast as a No. 1 option for the Magic and also has very real limitations"...just fan foolishness, blaming the best option on a weak team for being unworthy of being the best option on a good team. What's a coach to do? If anything, blame the GM for not having a true star.

Cole gets love and hate for being passionate and fiery, Vuc gets hate for being upset and slamming the ball when he's frustrated (probably partly with lack of help). Luka gets love for crying about every call. LBJ gets hate for crying about every call. Moe Wagner gets love from ORL for being an "agitator" but probably laughed at league-wide (and by his brother )..Just get me a star already - so we can stop this bored overanalysis of basically nothing.

Every player has fans that won't tolerate 'hate' being thrown at 'their' guy... Knightro literally just posted stats and you try to shut down stats.

You're not getting that I'm COMPLETELY agreeing with Knightro's post.

Vuc's not my guy...I just find it funny that it's not enough for some to continue to blame him for our team's failures of the past when he was arguably the only positive on the team...and then, to create some "revisionist history" of him being a crybaby or malcontent when he was a consummate pro for his entire time. If Thomas Bryant got the best of him once and he slammed the ball-good! He was frustrated-probably with his own performance-not sure what would be a more acceptable response from a guy who manhandled most of the centers in the league. The only legit time he complained was when Vogel benched him for Bismack Biyombo and Vuc literally said something relatively un-humble, "I'm the best player on the team...". Which was completely, unequivocally true and was proven for years after Vogel was shipped out. If my responses sound emotional - they're not. I really don't care what other people need to think about the guy and his demeanor. I just can't help some irrational need to support the Vuc that actually existed.

[shadrock]

He just played the most spineless, embarrassing half of basketball I've ever seen. This guy SUCKS. I can't believe he put up that great all-star year recently. His defense is better than expected, but good lord is his offense BAD this year. He isn't even a 3rd option on a championship team.

Im so glad we no longer have that butterboy on our team. Spineless is a great word to describe him.

[Rainwater]

People just don't understand basketball. That's pretty much it. Or they never watch any basketball outside bubble of their own team so they have some distorted reality. If they do, they would understand why somebody like Barnes on Warriors is 11 ppg player, and few months later is 20 ppg player on Dallas. And why he would be 10 ppg player today, if he returns to Warriors.

4 different players, same role. Same fan complaint.
2011-2014 Heat and Bosh. People couldn't top crying how overrated he was. He wasn't. he went from playing major role ( first option ) on Toronto to playing 3rd option, perimeter oriented. He went from shooting around 34% outside 16 feet to shooting almost half of shots.
Ofc his efficiency and counting stats, went down. But that was only possible way how Wade and Lebron could work. Wade was horrific outside shooter and they had to add 3 shooters around them to open foor.

Cavs Kevin Love. Basically same thing. From 26 and 13 to being glorified spot up shooter in corner and being 16 -10 guy.
Same thing. Irving and Lebron needed spacing. He had to play what he was given.

Kevin Garnett on Celtics. From 24 and 13 guy to 16 and 9 guy. Guy was just 32 in second year with Boston. Guy went from shooting 25% of shots from mid range to...shoting 40% of shots from mid range.

And now it's Vuc thing. Derozan needs spacing, that's why he is most common pick& roll partner with Vuc, Vuc drags off his man. But that also means Vuc is mainly floor spacer. As usual, with 2 uber high usage scorers, his offense does not come in rythm, rather sporadic and in waves. In general bulls standing at 27-15 is basically miracle, given how often somebody is out. Right now 3 out of 5 orginal starters are hurt ( Derozan and Vuc only starting). They aslo had 3 weeks where whole team had Covid quaranteen.

last example is Davis, guy who is probably top 15 player in nba ( top 10? ) guy averaged 28 ppg without Lebron, 22 points with Lebron, once again, turned into 3rd option, behind Westbrook, his efficiency also dropped off with counting stats.

Wendell Carter, for all praise that he got, averages hardly 13 points on 10 rebounds, while being incapable of playing center. Guy also has downright tragjectory. Started season strong, but since December his efficiency is dipping below league's average, mainly because he is 27% three point shooter since November ended. Wendell showed some signs of improvment, but as usual, got hurt.

Vuc is excellent player and one of key reasons why Derozan is having best season in years. He freezes big from overhelping and allows Derozan to drive because Vuc's man has to stick to him on perimeter. Aldrige did similar things, but it was in period when Aldrige wasn't high usage 3 poitn shooter ( next year he had to quit basketball).
All those "soft, gutless, low energy" crap is just that. Crap. people were labeling Pau Gasol soft whole his life. In reality, whoever team he left, was falling apart after his departure, and won everything that was possible to win in basketball ( despite being robbed from finals MVP in 2009 ).

I could somewhat agree with this post but I don't know if I could put Vuc and in the same boat with KG, Love, or Bosh. Maybe with Barnes but not those other guys. Yes, numbers may fall when playing with other star players especially if you are a big. But at least with KG, Love and Bosh you had the hope their games would rise if the other star players were out for some reason.

Maybe what I am trying to say is yes, Vuc is still the same player but I don't think he brings the same impact true stars bring. And I think that is where the problem lies. I think that most Bulls fans were thinking they were getting a star player, a first option when they traded away two first and a young big for an "All-Star". If he were that i doubt that the Magic would have traded him in the first place because the magic badly need a star themselves, lol. Vuc was just an ok player, a 3rd or 4th option, that benefited from playing on a bad team.

[pepe1991]

Kevin Love during playoffs for Cavs:
year 1: 14 points, 7 rebounds -41% FG, 42% for 3
year 2: 14,7 points, 8 ,5 rebounds 38,5% FG, 41% for 3 (won title)
year 3: 16,8 ppg, 10,6 rpg. 43,6% FG, 45% for 3

Chris Bosh stats during back to back championship ( cumulative):
13 ppg, 7,5 rebounds , 50% eFG


Kevin Love on full blown max, Chris Bosh as 13# most expensive nba player ( in 2012-13). By the 2013-14 Bosh was top 10 most expensive player, making Kevin Durant, Chris Paul ... in same year
And it's not like those guys were killing it in regular season. Bosh was 16 -7 man, Love 16-9.

Going from being pivotal part of offense and touching ball for hole lot to being glorified Ryan Anderson for most stars is painful transition. Both players got incredible amount of heat , at times, for playing "poor". But since they won championsihp, narrative over years changed.

Vuc hardly touches top 50 salary. ( 46th ).
Vuc was best Magic player because Orlando never had ability to draft star, never had balls to trade for one and never attracted anybody to sign one. So it was always by default. Orlando tried multiple times find his replacment. Hence, whole Biyombo thing was to replace him, but it was Hennigan- killer move. Weltman drafted Bamba. Another fiasco.

Vuc and Bulls, i mean, i really don't care about them, and it's their problem. but you look game like tonight, they play against red hot Cavs, no Lavine, no Lonzo, no Pat Will ( 3 out of 5 starters) , Vuc gets more touches and has 24-12-3 on +13 plus minus game. Ofc once Lonzo, Lavie are back he is not taking 21 shot a game. And he, much like many other "third bananas" won't average 20 points on 12 shots. He doesn't draw fouls ( by far worst issue with him ) and he is glorified spot up shooter and screen setter on Bulls , when whole team is healthy.

[pepe1991]

He just played the most spineless, embarrassing half of basketball I've ever seen. This guy SUCKS. I can't believe he put up that great all-star year recently. His defense is better than expected, but good lord is his offense BAD this year. He isn't even a 3rd option on a championship team.

Im so glad we no longer have that butterboy on our team. Spineless is a great word to describe him.

That aged as well as expected, as Magic allowed 50 points in paint vs 76ers, and "allowed" Embiid to set nba record for fastest 50 points in history. #SoftVuc #BLameClifford
On top of that, only Warriors in 2018 scored more 1 quater points than 76ers and their 47 points third quater.

One player, if his name is selective few goons from nba history, will never "tough it up " or " soft up" after departure of 1-2 players. You either have soft team or you don't. Magic were soft with Vuc, and for damn sure are soft without Vuc.