Game 44: Pistons (10-33) @ Kings (18-28) - Jan. 19 10:00 PM EST

[bstein14]

Yeah, we have a winning record in the new year.

That's a weird thing to let sink in. We're still bad, but it's become a lot more watchable.

I think it's clear the team needs to look to move Grant at this time. We've got stuff happening with some of our younger guys now and he might gum up the works.

Hard to say what impact Grant will have with this team. It seems like he could be back for us Tuesday when we play the Nuggets at LCA.

One thing is for sure, it's been nice to see younger guys get more FGAs and it seems like we're going to get more growth from them handling the ball more versus having Grant be a 25+% usage player. Hopefully when Grant does come back he is ok taking a more balanced role on a team where players around him have gotten better since he's been out.... and the team continues to focus on ball movement and sharing the ball.

[Manocad]

If Hayes is out for any period of time it seems to make sense to me to roll with Cade, Diallo, Bey, Grant and Stew/KO (with Stew/KO being a separate decision having no bearing on what to do with Grant).

[bstein14]

Kelly O, Lyles, Bey, Hami, and Cade seems like a nice combination of size together for a change.

Am wondering how serious Killians hip situation is going to become? Seems like those (hip) injuries end up pretty debilitating and chronic a lot.

Hayes missed mosy of his rookie season with a hip injury right? It really could be any amount of time depending on the severity. Not sure if he reinjured the old injury or if this is sometime different in a different spot.

[tradez401]

watched the replay of the game im a bit surprised we came out with the win. kings were shooting pretty good and i like the pieces they got in fox, bagley, davion, terrence davis (crazy he went undrafted). cade had a rough night with the fouls still managed to put some points up, bey and ko was great also cojo was good tonight lol.

[breezypeezy]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

[DetroitSho]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

What higher ceiling young players is Stewart's minutes blocking?

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[bstein14]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

He is only 20 years old I think its a pretty safe bet he hasnt hit his ceiling yet. He very well may end up being a bench player at 21, 22, 23, etc but hes certainly going to get better as time goes on. Most players are still in college at age 20 not hitting their NBA peaks.

[breezypeezy]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

What higher ceiling young players is Stewart's minutes blocking?

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We don't know because we haven't seen Garza get any extended minutes, but he certainly could have a higher ceiling than Stewart. Also if Stewart is shipped and we see Livers, Pickett or Smith get some minutes, I'd still rather be developing them than a fake center.
Stewart is 6 to 8 points 6 to 8 boards, maybe a block or steal, destroyed in the paint, he's no future Rodman.
If the argument is he's got this supposed upside, even though he cannot jump mind you, then let him compete in the G league and see if he can learn to set a screen or a functionable pnr.

[Manocad]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

What higher ceiling young players is Stewart's minutes blocking?

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Oh boy, now you did it...Killian Hayes Can O' Worms Part II

[Manocad]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

He is only 20 years old I think its a pretty safe bet he hasnt hit his ceiling yet. He very well may end up being a bench player at 21, 22, 23, etc but hes certainly going to get better as time goes on. Most players are still in college at age 20 not hitting their NBA peaks.

Unless that player's name is Killian Hayes.

You walked right into that one.

[bstein14]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

He is only 20 years old I think its a pretty safe bet he hasnt hit his ceiling yet. He very well may end up being a bench player at 21, 22, 23, etc but hes certainly going to get better as time goes on. Most players are still in college at age 20 not hitting their NBA peaks.

Unless that player's name is Killian Hayes.

You walked right into that one.

Not at all. Eveything i said goes for Killian too. Killian has gotten better this year. I would bet he will almost certainly be better next year than this season as well if he stays healthy. 99% of 20 year olds are better players at 22 or 23 than they were at 20. Its a safe bet Killian, Cade, and Stewart will all be better a year from now, and even better than that in 2 years.

Ive posted before that Hayes could very possibly go through a progression like this.
age 20: worst regular rotation player in the league.
age 21: below average backup PG
age 22: average backup PG (4th year of rookie deal)
age 23: above average backup PG
age 24: below average starting PG

I think that would be a great trajectory for his career given what we've seen so far, but its certainly possible for him if he puts the work in. For him to peak as a similar player to Marcus Smart is certainly possible.

Of course it could certainly go the other way too he could be in a Stanley Johnson or Sekou type situation in 2 or 3 years instead.

[mattao313]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

He is only 20 years old I think its a pretty safe bet he hasnt hit his ceiling yet. He very well may end up being a bench player at 21, 22, 23, etc but hes certainly going to get better as time goes on. Most players are still in college at age 20 not hitting their NBA peaks.

Sure Stewart will get better but how much better is the question. His physical limitations really lower his ceiling.

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[Manocad]

He is only 20 years old I think its a pretty safe bet he hasnt hit his ceiling yet. He very well may end up being a bench player at 21, 22, 23, etc but hes certainly going to get better as time goes on. Most players are still in college at age 20 not hitting their NBA peaks.

Unless that player's name is Killian Hayes.

You walked right into that one.

Not at all. Eveything i said goes for Killian too. Killian has gotten better this year. I would bet he will almost certainly be better next year than this season as well if he stays healthy. 99% of 20 year olds are better players at 22 or 23 than they were at 20. Its a safe bet Killian, Cade, and Stewart will all be better a year from now, and even better than that in 2 years.

Ive posted before that Hayes could very possibly go through a progression like this.
age 20: worst regular rotation player in the league.
age 21: below average backup PG
age 22: average backup PG (4th year of rookie deal)
age 23: above average backup PG
age 24: below average starting PG

I think that would be a great trajectory for his career given what we've seen so far, but its certainly possible for him if he puts the work in. For him to peak as a similar player to Marcus Smart is certainly possible.

Of course it could certainly go the other way too he could be in a Stanley Johnson or Sekou type situation in 2 or 3 years instead.

How generous of you to consider it a "great trajectory" for Hayes to make it to average backup PG in 4 years. Just curious--based on what you see of Saben Lee so far, what's his trajectory?

[bstein14]

Unless that player's name is Killian Hayes.

You walked right into that one.

Not at all. Eveything i said goes for Killian too. Killian has gotten better this year. I would bet he will almost certainly be better next year than this season as well if he stays healthy. 99% of 20 year olds are better players at 22 or 23 than they were at 20. Its a safe bet Killian, Cade, and Stewart will all be better a year from now, and even better than that in 2 years.

Ive posted before that Hayes could very possibly go through a progression like this.
age 20: worst regular rotation player in the league.
age 21: below average backup PG
age 22: average backup PG (4th year of rookie deal)
age 23: above average backup PG
age 24: below average starting PG

I think that would be a great trajectory for his career given what we've seen so far, but its certainly possible for him if he puts the work in. For him to peak as a similar player to Marcus Smart is certainly possible.

Of course it could certainly go the other way too he could be in a Stanley Johnson or Sekou type situation in 2 or 3 years instead.

How generous of you to consider it a "great trajectory" for Hayes to make it to average backup PG in 4 years. Just curious--based on what you see of Saben Lee so far, what's his trajectory?

Hayes is 1.5 years into his career already so for him to be an average backup PG in year 4 really means after another 1.5 years he starts year four. That is a pretty generous path at this given point but its certainly possible.

Saben Lee is most likely a backup as well for the next few seasons I doubt he's a starter in the league before his late 20s and even then its unlikely he ever starts 70+ games in an NBA season on a playoff team. That said, if you look at what he did as a rookie with a better than 3:1 assist to TO ratio and shooting 35+% from deep you can see that the kid can shoot and can handle the ball and create for teammates effectively. In the G League he shot 47.2% from 3 point land on about 50 attempts. Obviously when you're the #1 option and you can shoot yourself into a rhythm you're going to be a bit more confidant in that shot but its certainly promising to see him be able to shoot such a high percentage from deep on a high number of attempts (7 per game).

Given what we've seen from Saben as a rookie, in the G League, and the fact he's much more athletic than Hayes I would think that Lee does have a higher ceiling than a player like Hayes. Lee also is having to earn it and often times in life, the kids that have to earn it end up outworking the kids with trust funds that are given everything without earning it. So I'd put my money on Lee having having the better career.

[Manocad]

Not at all. Eveything i said goes for Killian too. Killian has gotten better this year. I would bet he will almost certainly be better next year than this season as well if he stays healthy. 99% of 20 year olds are better players at 22 or 23 than they were at 20. Its a safe bet Killian, Cade, and Stewart will all be better a year from now, and even better than that in 2 years.

Ive posted before that Hayes could very possibly go through a progression like this.
age 20: worst regular rotation player in the league.
age 21: below average backup PG
age 22: average backup PG (4th year of rookie deal)
age 23: above average backup PG
age 24: below average starting PG

I think that would be a great trajectory for his career given what we've seen so far, but its certainly possible for him if he puts the work in. For him to peak as a similar player to Marcus Smart is certainly possible.

Of course it could certainly go the other way too he could be in a Stanley Johnson or Sekou type situation in 2 or 3 years instead.

How generous of you to consider it a "great trajectory" for Hayes to make it to average backup PG in 4 years. Just curious--based on what you see of Saben Lee so far, what's his trajectory?

Hayes is 1.5 years into his career already so for him to be an average backup PG in year 4 really means after another 1.5 years he starts year four. That is a pretty generous path at this given point but its certainly possible.

Saben Lee is most likely a backup as well for the next few seasons I doubt he's a starter in the league before his late 20s and even then its unlikely he ever starts 70+ games in an NBA season on a playoff team. That said, if you look at what he did as a rookie with a better than 3:1 assist to TO ratio and shooting 35+% from deep you can see that the kid can shoot and can handle the ball and create for teammates effectively. In the G League he shot 47.2% from 3 point land on about 50 attempts. Obviously when you're the #1 option and you can shoot yourself into a rhythm you're going to be a bit more confidant in that shot but its certainly promising to see him be able to shoot such a high percentage from deep on a high number of attempts (7 per game).

Given what we've seen from Saben as a rookie, in the G League, and the fact he's much more athletic than Hayes I would think that Lee does have a higher ceiling than a player like Hayes. Lee also is having to earn it and often times in life, the kids that have to earn it end up outworking the kids with trust funds that are given everything without earning it. So I'd put my money on Lee having having the better career.

Interesting little sidebar there. As one of the kids who had to work for it I can assure you that the trust fund kids ultimately still wind up better off, generally speaking. It's nearly impossible to outdo generational wealth all by yourself. None of which has anything bearing on the Hayes vs Lee debate though.

But you've brought up a key point that I have as well...if you see Lee's trajectory as doubtfully being a starter before his late 20's, why should he start? If he starts is he therefore guilty of not having "earned" it because his trajectory doesn't put him in a starting PG role within his first two seasons?

[DetroitSho]

Would rather see KO get starter minutes and trim back Stewart's minutes.
Send him (Stewart) with the Grant package for a real interior player as far as I'm concerned.
If he's not getting shipped, then he should be getting bench player minutes at best. If we're talking importance of developmental minutes , use those minutes with higher ceiling prospects or just let a Garza, Livers, Smith, Pickett type get some game time.
We may already have seen the Stewart ceiling, it looks like a very, very, marginal deep bench ceiling.
No vertical, no outside shot, doesn't pnr or rim protect, give his minutes to a player that can be bothered to do or learn these skills.

What higher ceiling young players is Stewart's minutes blocking?

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We don't know because we haven't seen Garza get any extended minutes, but he certainly could have a higher ceiling than Stewart. Also if Stewart is shipped and we see Livers, Pickett or Smith get some minutes, I'd still rather be developing them than a fake center.
Stewart is 6 to 8 points 6 to 8 boards, maybe a block or steal, destroyed in the paint, he's no future Rodman.
If the argument is he's got this supposed upside, even though he cannot jump mind you, then let him compete in the G league and see if he can learn to set a screen or a functionable pnr.

In what way is a center's minutes a hindrance to guys that are wings (and I'm assuming whoever Smith is, is a wing. I honestly don't know who he is, to let you know what I think of his upside)? At this point y'all are just making up bs just to be contrarian.

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[Sort]

I want Beef Stew more at the four and for him to hit that outside shot. He's going to be backup in this league if he can't hit an outside shot because his inside game is almost entirely dependent on someone else penetrating the lane and then making himself available. But he's going to be a gritty player in this league for years to come.

Just probably off the bench or with another dominant big.

[FloridaMan78]

I was big fan of Stewart, but he has disappointed this year. I thought he could be a starter, but he appears not to be. I was thinking he could be like Maxiel back in the day, so I looked up his stats. Stewart is trajecting to be and already is better than Maxiel. I think Stewart would be a great energy big off the bench with potential especially if he works on his jumper.