Political Roundtable Part XXX

[Wizardspride]

I'm not opposed to more regulation. I just don't think it will do any good until we first reduce the size and power of multinational corporations. If we give government more regulatory power right now, the politicians and bureaucrats will just be corrupted by multinational money and they will ultimately use the power of regulation to crush smaller business, thereby assisting the multinationals in maintaining their monopoly status.

Consider Covid. Nearly every regulatory feature of it served to crush small business and expand the power and wealth of multinationals.

We need trust-busting first. Regulation next.

That's not totally out of line. The thing is, I see very little desire for people to vote for anyone that actually wants to regulate smart - whether they have good ideas or not. Bernie is about as good as it gets in terms of popularity, and there are a few Ds but not many. The Rs are a cesspool.

Here's the catch. Trust-busting is regulatory in and of itself. So if you don't trust existing politicians to enact regulations and enforce them without regulatory capture getting in the way, why would you trust those same politicians to oversee trust busting without regulatory capture getting in the way? It's very much just one kind of regulation/enforcement. Saying antitrust but no regulations is like saying apples but no fruit.

Fair point. This is why I'm pretty fatalistic on the subject. I think the only real remedy out of this would be a Rodrigo Duterte type of populist authoritarian figure rising to power. In a way, I think people thought Trump would be that guy, - someone from outside the system to come in and fix the problems. Trump was indeed from outside the system, but ultimately he was too incompetent, mostly in his ability to staff his bureaucracy with people who could actually clean the swamp. He just staffed it with the same old corrupt Republicans who are just as captured by big business as corrupt Democrats are.

Perhaps Trump was "of the swamp" himself....

[nate33]

That's not totally out of line. The thing is, I see very little desire for people to vote for anyone that actually wants to regulate smart - whether they have good ideas or not. Bernie is about as good as it gets in terms of popularity, and there are a few Ds but not many. The Rs are a cesspool.

Here's the catch. Trust-busting is regulatory in and of itself. So if you don't trust existing politicians to enact regulations and enforce them without regulatory capture getting in the way, why would you trust those same politicians to oversee trust busting without regulatory capture getting in the way? It's very much just one kind of regulation/enforcement. Saying antitrust but no regulations is like saying apples but no fruit.

Fair point. This is why I'm pretty fatalistic on the subject. I think the only real remedy out of this would be a Rodrigo Duterte type of populist authoritarian figure rising to power. In a way, I think people thought Trump would be that guy, - someone from outside the system to come in and fix the problems. Trump was indeed from outside the system, but ultimately he was too incompetent, mostly in his ability to staff his bureaucracy with people who could actually clean the swamp. He just staffed it with the same old corrupt Republicans who are just as captured by big business as corrupt Democrats are.

Perhaps Trump was "of the swamp" himself....

That's a possibility. I tend to doubt it because of the hostility shown to him from all corners of DC.

[dckingsfan]

I believe in a persons right to choose. My real angst is the mandate...

The point behind the mandate was externality and reducing hospitalizations to keep our medical system intact.

During Delta, the risk of hospitalization was an order of magnitude lower.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

That saves money and in this case the unvaccinated cost the vaccinated dollars. I get why the vaccinated might be annoyed.

And if you are an ER/ICU nurse or doc and your life has been hell for the last 18 months - I get why you are annoyed at the unvaccinated.

Vaccines are responsible for ~1.1 million less US deaths (which you might say is choice) and 10.3 million less hospitalizations which results in a lack of medical choices for others.

https://www.commonwealthfund.org/publications/issue-briefs/2021/dec/us-covid-19-vaccination-program-one-year-how-many-deaths-and

[Wizardspride]

Fair point. This is why I'm pretty fatalistic on the subject. I think the only real remedy out of this would be a Rodrigo Duterte type of populist authoritarian figure rising to power. In a way, I think people thought Trump would be that guy, - someone from outside the system to come in and fix the problems. Trump was indeed from outside the system, but ultimately he was too incompetent, mostly in his ability to staff his bureaucracy with people who could actually clean the swamp. He just staffed it with the same old corrupt Republicans who are just as captured by big business as corrupt Democrats are.

Perhaps Trump was "of the swamp" himself....

That's a possibility. I tend to doubt it because of the hostility shown to him from all corners of DC.

Hostility brought about in large part because of his own actions.

And fwiw, I don't see this as a conservative vs liberal thing: In fact, I believe dude is as liberal as I am on the down low.

Just based on his entire life story, I don't see anything that screams "Donald Trump, advocate of the little guy"....

[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

Trump is the swamp. He spent his entire presidency auctioning off us assets to the highest bidder, corruptly forcing the secret service to spend millions of dollars at his personal investment property (which otherwise would have gone bankrupt) all while plotting to stay in power in the laziest possible way, by piggybacking on fox news' attempts to destroy democracy

[verbal8]

Trump is the swamp. He spent his entire presidency auctioning off us assets to the highest bidder, corruptly forcing the secret service to spend millions of dollars at his personal investment property (which otherwise would have gone bankrupt) all while plotting to stay in power in the laziest possible way, by piggybacking on fox news' attempts to destroy democracy

Trump was worse than the swamp, he brought a sewer to DC.

[Pointgod]

Do nothing because the "we can't trust government" mantra has worked so well for us in this pandemic, climate change and monopolization.

So remedy? Continue to do nothing? Trust no one? Trust me, you can't trust them!

Trusting the government CAUSED the pandemic. Covid exists because of government funded gain-of-function research.

Tinfoil hat alarm going of full-blast. Sorry, disinformation to justify "trust me, you can't trust them"...

If you notice all of these “opinions” have already been debunked numerous times and are often just recycled from other people. Everything is vague and high level enough to pass it off as opinion but they never go a layer deeper into anything of substance. These are all examples of a lie being repeated enough times that people believe it’s true. No one on this site is a virologist or epidemiologist at least to my knowledge. Please stop posting like you know what you’re talking about is definitive. It’s not. It’s based on misinformation and misunderstanding of data and science.

Trusting the government CAUSED the pandemic. Covid exists because of government funded gain-of-function research.

None of these vaxxes use MRNA technology, which conviently gets ignored in these responses. Bringing up past vaxxes isnt relevant to a discussion on MRNA vaxxes.

Its possible for people to form their own opinions you know. i think mandates are a slippery slope but ultimately the reason im not getting vaxxed is because i think its ****, leaky vaccine with long term health risks & implications. I view vaccine injury as a bigger risk than Covid. It's really that simple.

If black people have reserves about getting a government mandated injection, respect the reservations and come up with a way other than shame to get people to get vaccinated.

[Pointgod]

I find it interesting that the same “don’t trust the government people” are the same ones that have no problem with government agents of the Supreme Court telling women what they can do with their bodies. Why even bother having any laws, rules or regulations if everyone is inherently corrupt and untrustworthy?

I’m sure you can trust your local restaurant to ensure that rat poop doesn’t end up in your meals without big daddy government breathing down their neck

[Wizardspride]

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[Ruzious]

Some of the comments in this thread about Covid are so absurd that it's really not conducive to any kind of serious discussion. If anything, it's making me feel like... this forum isn't for me anymore.

[Kanyewest]

* The vaccines are less effective than they are letting on. A big trick with the data is counting the first two weeks after getting the jab as still being unvaccinated, even though the jabs trigger a temporary reduction in the immune system that increases infection rate, hospitalization and death. If you place those hospitalizations and deaths properly into the vaccinated column instead of the unvaccinated, it significantly reduces reported vaccine effectiveness.

Since I said this in the Covid thread, me and Nate have a difference of opinion and we'll agree to disagree.

The CDC states that it takes 2 weeks for the antibodies to build up. So technically they are not vaccinated.

It takes time for the body to build protection after any vaccination. Most adults and children are considered fully vaccinated 2 weeks after the second dose of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine. Most adults are considered fully vaccinated 2 weeks after the second dose of Moderna COVID-19 vaccine or the single-dose J&J/Janssen COVID-19 vaccine. You should keep using all the tools available to protect yourself and your child until fully vaccinated.

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/expect.html

If it has been less than two weeks since your shot, or if you still need to get your second shot, you are NOT fully protected. Keep taking steps to protect yourself and others until you are fully vaccinated (two weeks after your final shot).

https://www.cdc.gov/coronavirus/2019-ncov/vaccines/different-vaccines/how-they-work.html



Note the manufacturers of the vaccines also agree and when you get the shot they advise you to follow masking social distancing policy.

Possible explanation for why the mortality rate is so high for those within 2 weeks is that the initial vaccines were being distributed during the beginning of 2021 to seniors and those with comorbidities at the peak of pandemic at the time (December 2020 to February) when at peak there 250,000 infections 7 day average in early January.

Also a lot of people may have been misinformed that they were actually vaccinated when they were not. Perhaps they chose not to follow social distancing behaviors such as wearing a mask within 2 weeks after they were vaccinated.

Note the CDC doesn't even say that one's immune's response weakens and it is still up for debate. Some say that one's immune response may actually be better because one's t-cells are actually higher. Although one's response should be beter after 2 weeks given the number of antibodies that build up.

Either way, the trend is still that unvaccinated people are at higher risk with the data at the end of 2021 when the vaccination rates didn't alter that much. Although perhaps the data will show different results with Omnicron in 2022.

https://covid.cdc.gov/covid-data-tracker/#covidnet-hospitalizations-vaccination

Note the antibodies of the vaccine do appear to wear off- this isn't actually uncommon as most vaccines do take 3 shots (ie tetanus)

Anecdotally most people that have gotten Covid that I've known who have all been boosted have been fine. A relative of mine just got Covid and was unboosted- lost his sense of smell, had a fever but didn't have to go to the hospital at least. His symptoms seemed more severe than those I know who were boosted.



Here is a 2nd study supporting that the booster has been more effective than 2 shots. https://www.cdc.gov/mmwr/volumes/71/wr/mm7104e3.htm?s_cid=mm7104e3_w

[Dat2U]

Trusting the government CAUSED the pandemic. Covid exists because of government funded gain-of-function research.

Tinfoil hat alarm going of full-blast. Sorry, disinformation to justify "trust me, you can't trust them"...

If you notice all of these “opinions” have already been debunked numerous times and are often just recycled from other people. Everything is vague and high level enough to pass it off as opinion but they never go a layer deeper into anything of substance. These are all examples of a lie being repeated enough times that people believe it’s true. No one on this site is a virologist or epidemiologist at least to my knowledge. Please stop posting like you know what you’re talking about is definitive. It’s not. It’s based on misinformation and misunderstanding of data and science.

Ok, you too???? Or are you the resident realgm epidemiologist?

[Dat2U]

Some of the comments in this thread about Covid are so absurd that it's really not conducive to any kind of serious discussion. If anything, it's making me feel like... this forum isn't for me anymore.

I'll bite my toungue and just say I've felt the same for a long while. Have a great day.

[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

Ho ho ho HOOOOLY CRAP! "Covid exists because of government funded gain-of-function research."

Why are you guys arguing with a dude who is clearly *insane*?

Watch him come back all "the voices in my head assure me I am right! I've done my own research on alt-right-super-serious-science-discussion.net! Derp de der!!!"

I had a wife that I thought was sane too. She could totally pass as a rational person as long as you didn't know her for more than about 48 hours and then the bats would start to leak out of the belfry. I kinda liked it at first but turns out trying to get inside the minds of crazy people is not good for your mental health, and you have to do that if you're gonna live with that person all day, every day. Just walk away. Trust me, you're better off.

[Dat2U]

Wild. Stay classy Zonkerbl.

[nate33]

Let me get this straight. You guys honestly believe that Covid-19 developed totally naturally? And it just happened to show up first in Wuhan down the street from the research lab? Oh yeah, and we can't find any host animal, and Fauci and Peter Daszak instituted a massive cover-up of the funding of the gain-of-function research for no particular reason?

[Zonkerbl]

I lived with a crazy person who could pass as normal for 12 years and I can recognize the signs. 12 years of bitter experience taught me that the only way to save your own sanity is not to engage. Doesn't matter how good the sex is, doesn't matter how fascinating the insight into the alt-right loonasphere is, you're only hurting yourself. Walk away.

[dckingsfan]

Government funded labs in South Africa produced Omicron too... And of course you can't trust those sneak labs in India that created the Delta variant.