OT: Bonds & Clemens Miss HOF

[DirtyDez]

Absolutely not. They wouldn’t have been nearly as good if they weren’t juicing. And they took away from the guys who didn’t cheat. I grew up a White Sox fan and we had Frank Thomas who was completely clean and still put up amazing numbers. I always wondered just how much higher he would’ve been in the record books if he didn’t have to compete vs juicers.

Screw Bonds and Clemens. they were good enough to still be great if they didn’t cheat.

If Frank Thomas didn't get injured at the worst times of his career he could've easily topped 600 home runs. The fact that he voluntarily submitted urine samples to show that he was clean makes it even better. He was known to be vocal about his opposition to steroids as well where he had advocated for drug testing as early as 1995 and was the only player who agreed to be interviewed for the Mitchell report in 2007.

It's sad that Bonds didn't take Ken Griffey Jr.'s advice in ignoring the hoopla and to just let his play do the talking. If he had laid off the steroids he could've been the 1st ever player to have 500hrs, 500sbs and potentially 3,000 hits not to mention all the other accolades he accomplished, but greed got to him in the end. Griffey was truly special and it's a shame injuries ruined him, but still impressed he got 600hrs nonetheless.

As a Blue Jays fan I wish Roy Halladay(RIP) could've had a Blue Jays cap on his HOF plaque, but still happy he got in regardless. Hate Alomar though especially for what he did(sexually harassed an 18 y/o staffer in 2014) which resulted in the Blue Jays+MLB severing ties with him.

Steroid testing didn’t start until 2003 and amphetamines weren’t banned until 2006. Nobody really knows how many players used this stuff while MLB/Selig turned a blind eye then got all righteous when Canseco wrote his book.

[Liver_Pooty]

Ortiz was busted in 03, but because he was a writers dream and incredibly liked he's in. What an unbelievable shame.

[Marty McFly]

tragic. Bonds is the greatest hitter the game has ever seen. but then again the Hall's credibility isn't great in the first place.

[Pharmcat]

tragic. Bonds is the greatest hitter the game has ever seen. but then again the Hall's credibility isn't great in the first place.

This post sums it up , bonds hand eye coordination was best ever

[Pharmcat]

Of course they should but its an absolute joke that they penalize them but Ortiz gets it. But let's be real, this is about that some writers and the media don't like Clemens and none of them I repeat none of them ever liked Bonds period. If you think the media hates dealing with Belichick, Lynch, Irving multiply that by a 1000 of what they thought of Bonds. To a lot of them this is Bonds's comeuppance. They also feel that somebody having to do with emergence of the Red Sox other than Martinez has to make the Hall buts its a joke that Ortiz even made it over Ramirez. It stinks.

To be fair bonds was an arrogant <insert bad word> to a lot of people around him. I’m not surprised a lot of people hate him

[shakes0]

Absolutely not. They wouldn’t have been nearly as good if they weren’t juicing. And they took away from the guys who didn’t cheat. I grew up a White Sox fan and we had Frank Thomas who was completely clean and still put up amazing numbers. I always wondered just how much higher he would’ve been in the record books if he didn’t have to compete vs juicers.

Screw Bonds and Clemens. they were good enough to still be great if they didn’t cheat.

With all due respect, Shakes, how do you know he was clean?

Frank was far and away the most vocal player back then in terms of guys speaking out against steroids. If there’s one guy who didn’t juice back then it was definitely Frank Thomas.

[shakes0]

tragic. Bonds is the greatest hitter the game has ever seen. but then again the Hall's credibility isn't great in the first place.

He wasn’t even the best hitter of his era. Frank Thomas was a better hitter and when comparing the two you absolutely have to put an asterisk next to Bonds since Frank was 100% clean.

[SNPA]

What about guys having eye surgeries? Isn’t that a competitive advantage too?

[Marty McFly]

tragic. Bonds is the greatest hitter the game has ever seen. but then again the Hall's credibility isn't great in the first place.

He wasn’t even the best hitter of his era. Frank Thomas was a better hitter and when comparing the two you absolutely have to put an asterisk next to Bonds since Frank was 100% clean.

You're argument is conditional on the basis of your fandom. Pre-juice Bonds and Frank Thomas had comparable numbers, so to flat-out say Bonds wasn't even the best hitter in his era, whilst adding an asterisk to his juicing era shows an argument in bad faith.

all of these guys did something for a competitive advantage. Whether they were caught or not. Never mind the fact that Thomas was just a bigger man. he had that advantage.

[bebopdeluxe]

Build a "Cheaters Wing" for them in Cooperstown. While they are at it, the can put Papi's bust in there as well.

People want to turn a blind eye to an era where some guy name Brady Anderson hit FIFTY jacks in a year. The year before he had 16, and the year after, he had 18. Either he signed a new contract after he hit 50 or he lost his dealer.

NO DRUGGIES ALLOWED

And if you talk about "greenies", I will tell you that "greenies" weren't going to help f'n BRADY ANDERSON hit 50 bombs. The argument is harder when it comes to all of those guys during the first half of the 20th century who didn't have to play against black players. That is a more reasonable point.

And I have particular scorn for guys like Bonds and Clemons. While I do not approve of steroid use, and I think it made a mockery of the game, I can almost understand some AAAA-type player who was trying to secure a big-league paycheck. Bonds and Clemons were likely first-ballot guys WHO CHEATED ANYWAY.

Those guys can be like me - and buy a ticket to go there.

[Cactus Jack]

It's sad that Bonds didn't take Ken Griffey Jr.'s advice in ignoring the hoopla and to just let his play do the talking. If he had laid off the steroids he could've been the 1st ever player to have 500hrs, 500sbs and potentially 3,000 hits not to mention all the other accolades he accomplished, but greed got to him in the end. Griffey was truly special and it's a shame injuries ruined him, but still impressed he got 600hrs nonetheless.

The true goat.

People talk about Bonds. But Griff was a better all around player in his prime. He would have shattered every record if it wasn't for injuries which halted his career. Ken would hold the record (HR King), not Barry.

[uraverage]

Yet Bobby B is the only one still getting paid!!! Checkers vs chess

[zshawn10]

It’s a joke. Baseball players throughout history did all kinds of sketchy, out of bounds things to gain advantages. Bonds is the best baseball player ever. He’d get one good pitch a night, at most, and knock it out of the park. Baseball is a dying game and the stuffy pearl clutchers will just make it die sooner.

Yet people think the Astros cheating was the first time anyone has ever cheated or stole signs. It was so weird

[Peja Stojakovic]

i'm pretty sure they'll get in someday. even a couple generations from now people will think about sports and ped's pretty differently

[Cactus Jack]

Do you think they should've gotten in?

This was their last (10th) year of eligibility so they're shut out permanently I believe. Sosa missed out also.

David Ortiz made it and was the only person inducted this year

I'm of the belief that 80-95% of players we're using PED's during that era. So yes, they should get in.

[azcatz11]

Do you think they should've gotten in?

This was their last (10th) year of eligibility so they're shut out permanently I believe. Sosa missed out also.

David Ortiz made it and was the only person inducted this year

I'm of the belief that 80-95% of players we're using PED's during that era. So yes, they should get in.

I couldn't agree more. #LetThemIn

[Raps in 4]

Allowing Ortiz in but not Bonds and Clemens is comical.

[Raps in 4]

tragic. Bonds is the greatest hitter the game has ever seen. but then again the Hall's credibility isn't great in the first place.

He wasn’t even the best hitter of his era. Frank Thomas was a better hitter and when comparing the two you absolutely have to put an asterisk next to Bonds since Frank was 100% clean.

Frank doesn't pass the "100% clean" eye test for me, and I loved him as a player. I'd be shocked if he wasn't juicing too.

But anyway, Bonds was the better player, and it isn't close.

Bonds:
Career fWAR: 164.4
Career wRC+: 173

Thomas:
Career fWAR: 72.1
Career wRC+: 154

Frank Thomas had an all-time great career. Bonds had a case for GOAT.

[gp2015]

If you allow guys like Bonds and Clemens, then you would have to let those other guys in who were denied due to drug scandals as well. Guys like Sosa, McGwire, Palmeiro, Manny Ramirez should all be in the HOF based solely on their stats. You would have to let in Alex Rodriguez as well, who was caught twice and who probably won't get in based on initial voting.

Where do you draw the line?

It's a tough situation but it opens up a can of worms if you let them in.

[theoilslick]

Long ago I loved watching Bonds hit his 73 home runs. And I watching him hit many of them live on TV in that record-breaking season.

When the BALCO scandal broke open, and anabolic steroids were connected to Bonds, my faith for guy was damaged. His charge in perjury case only worsened my respect for him at the time. I idolized what he was as a batter, and it shattered my love for him.

But as corrupt and filthy the steroids era was, ruining the image of many MLB big sluggers and pitchers, we can’t fairly erase or asterisk the top records to the all-stars, but let the records to other steroid era players count because they were not caught.

The steroid use was extremely popular even after 1991 when the MLB declared it as a banned substance list. It took until 2003 when the MLB thought, “Huh, maybe we should actually check for steroids use?”

Bottom line: it was really the MLB’s fault for not taking procedural steroid tests that let the drug wildly used. Hence why Bonds and Clemens should be allowed to be deemed HOFers. There are many of the pre-2003 HOFers who may have taken the ‘roids, but slipped right by. By no means is the steroid era a golden era.