Jalyen Brown vs Pascal Siakam

[djsunyc]

So Siakam wasn’t “comfortable in the bubble”, had an off season last year, was injured to start this season. Any other excuses Raptors fans want to give him?

Masai would trade Siakam for Brown in a heartbeat. He’s the better player the last few years, he’s the better player now and he will be better in the future. Siakams not a bad player, but Brown is better.

i mean you have to take this stance b/c youre a celtic fan but injuries/covid aside, the entire team had to play on the road all year and live in hotels. something no other team had to do. everything about last year is one huge asterisk when it comes to the raptors.

[Troubadour]

They're completely different players. One is a point forward and the other is a play finisher. Both excellent at what they do.

[celticfan42487]

Neither are a #1 option.

Both are all-stars with different flaws, even these last 30ish games Siakam only shoots 3 3s a game at a below average efficiency so he's not a threat from there. Brown despite his ISO scoring skills isn't someone you can put the ball in their hands and also get playmaking from.

It is a little suspect from Rap fans saying ignore the past 1.5 years and only focus on the last 30 games like Siakam is a 21 year old breaking out instead of a fully developed 27 year old who was over 25 for those years but even if we leave that aside and view him in the most Raptor tinted view the flaws remain the same for both players.

Due to their flaws as players the answer pretty much comes down to.

• If you need a #2 option you go Siakam because he has ball handling skills (playmaking) that Brown doesn't.
  
• If you need a #3 you go with Brown for elite efficiency and defensive versatility, specifically that career average 38% from 3 (think of Brown as a poor man's Klay Thompson).

I was surprised to see Siakam isn't much of a rebounder, figured he was better than that. But even with the rebounding being the same nothing can replace the ability giving someone the ball in their hands and being able to do something with it both scoring and playmaking can give you IF your team needs it.

So I think it still holds if you need a #2 scorer you go with Siakam but if you don't (like theoretically let's say the Suns or Warriors) then you go with Brown.

Brown's ability to guard the 1-4 and excuses or not hold Siakam to virtually 0 points really stands out in the playoffs far more than the regular season with matchups and switches. He's just such a valuable all-star upgraded version of your 3 and D swingman in today's game.

[realball]

I think his jump in playmaking has separated him from Jaylen Brown at this point

Why be a playmaker when your one of the best scorers in the league though ?

Brown scores 3 more points on 2 more shots. One of the league's best scorers is pretty disingenuous, he's not even the best scorer on his own team.

Also, if you're actually watching Celtics ball this season, you'd probably know why having a player who is a play-maker is important.

[Blaze4G]

I think his jump in playmaking has separated him from Jaylen Brown at this point

Why be a playmaker when your one of the best scorers in the league though ?

Brown scores 3 more points on 2 more shots. One of the league's best scorers is pretty disingenuous, he's not even the best scorer on his own team.

Also, if you're actually watching Celtics ball this season, you'd probably know why having a player who is a play-maker is important.

Brown has had injury issues and covid to start the season, his efficiency has been off (although past month it has been back to his usual efficiency). Even so, his TS% is still higher this year and was quite a bit higher last year than Siakam.

Its funny how you brought up this season when the raptors are in the same position as the celtics in the standings. Even with Vanvleet playing out of his mind, looking like an all star, Barnes running for rookie of the year and Siakam as you guys claimed better than brown one would assume the raps would have a much better record than the celtics.

[KawhiSoSerious]

Oh stop it he has not & you know it.

http://nbacourtoptix.nba.com/en

Siakam has been doubled just as frequently as Tatum this season (slightly less per game but a slightly higher percentage of possession) and has produced a lot more effectively.

Sent from my Pixel 4 using RealGM mobile app

Watch both teams play.

Tatum’s getting double teamed (sometimes triple teamed) as soon he hits half court. Siakam’s only double teamed when he’s close to the paint. He’s rarely ever had more than one defender on him at the top of the key.

Look at those goal posts go!!

[Dogen]

Just a heads up. Not only does this guy have no idea what the f*** he’s talking about he also doesn’t represent the Celtic fan base as well.

Are you the representative for the fan base? It would be great just dealing with one person.

BCGM is probably the single troll most despised by posters in the Celtics forum.

BCGM is… polarizing, aggravating, and a broken record, but at least he is consistent!

Agendas aside, he makes a point that I agree with about Brown’s tendencies to iso and cough up the ball without seeing the potential play unfolding. Yea don’t have stats, but eye test indicates that Siakim is clearly a better distributor. Extra two years in age notwithstanding, Brown has not made much progress in this area… yet. Maybe a full year under a new coach will help but so far it looks like he’s regressed and the Celtics need more help in moving the ball.

Leaving aside who is the better player, I wonder who would be the best fit for each team, ie: traded one for one.

It seems that the Raps May have a gotten another Siakim in Barnes. Maybe even better. I could see Brown as a nice fit with Barnes, FVV, Siakim, Anunoby and Chewy.

For the Celtics, Siakim moves Tatum to the 3 and gives the Cs another distributor who can also step out and hit the 3 and shore up the front court defense.

Not saying this should happen, but just that it could be a trade that benefits both teams.

[realball]

Why be a playmaker when your one of the best scorers in the league though ?

Brown scores 3 more points on 2 more shots. One of the league's best scorers is pretty disingenuous, he's not even the best scorer on his own team.

Also, if you're actually watching Celtics ball this season, you'd probably know why having a player who is a play-maker is important.

Brown has had injury issues and covid to start the season, his efficiency has been off (although past month it has been back to his usual efficiency). Even so, his TS% is still higher this year and was quite a bit higher last year than Siakam.

Its funny how you brought up this season when the raptors are in the same position as the celtics in the standings. Even with Vanvleet playing out of his mind, looking like an all star, Barnes running for rookie of the year and Siakam as you guys claimed better than brown one would assume the raps would have a much better record than the celtics.

Raptors on paper are a much worse team than the Celtics. We're starting a rookie who is a forward at C. We have even worse depth than the Celtics. Siakam/FVV are our oldest starters. Siakam also missed 12 games to start the season, and our whole team had to suffer from losses due to covid. Raptors are definitely overachieving and Celtics are underachieving by a lot.

[Blaze4G]

Brown scores 3 more points on 2 more shots. One of the league's best scorers is pretty disingenuous, he's not even the best scorer on his own team.

Also, if you're actually watching Celtics ball this season, you'd probably know why having a player who is a play-maker is important.

Brown has had injury issues and covid to start the season, his efficiency has been off (although past month it has been back to his usual efficiency). Even so, his TS% is still higher this year and was quite a bit higher last year than Siakam.

Its funny how you brought up this season when the raptors are in the same position as the celtics in the standings. Even with Vanvleet playing out of his mind, looking like an all star, Barnes running for rookie of the year and Siakam as you guys claimed better than brown one would assume the raps would have a much better record than the celtics.

Raptors on paper are a much worse team than the Celtics. We're starting a rookie who is a forward at C. We have even worse depth than the Celtics. Siakam/FVV are our oldest starters. Siakam also missed 12 games to start the season, and our whole team had to suffer from losses due to covid. Raptors are definitely overachieving and Celtics are underachieving by a lot.

Jaylen has missed 14 games, so more than Siakam, Smart 10 games, Timelord 11 games, Al horford 9 games, Tatum forgetting how to shoot, raptors is not the only team suffering from covid.

Not sure why you brought up age, Celtics is one of the youngest teams in the league too. Our bench are both awful, raptors ranked worst in league and celtics 3rd worst.

I don't get how raptors on paper are much worse team than the celtics.

Based on raptors fans comments, you guys have 2 starters that are better (vanvleet vs whoever we have as PG and Siakam over Brown). Then you have Trent who I think is better than any guard we have except maybe Smart and that is arguable.

[johanliebert]

I remember the siakam vs tatum threads started by raptor fans lol.

I’m not sure averaging 5 assists when you have the ball as much as siakam makes you a point forward.

[johanliebert]

I think it’s pretty clearly Siakam. If I need one of these guys to get me a bucket in the clutch, I’ll go with Brown, but Siakam’s playmaking ability is lightyears ahead of Brown’s, he’s a much better rebounder, and I think as defenders go they are roughly equivalent, except that Siakam can guard 5s and Brown can’t.

Brown can guard 1-4. Let’s not forget when he shut down siakam in their playoffs series in 2020.

[phanman]

Raptors fans will pick Pascal & Celtics fans will choose Brown. Honestly they are in the same tier for evaluation purposes, and ultimately comes down to what you are looking for in a #2, because they both aren't #1 options. Both teams essentially have a 1A/1B approach with the caveat being that Tatum is just in a different tier as a more reliable scorer than these 2 & FVV.

All I know is that since the New Year has rolled around, both guys have currently playing their best basketball of the season after their initial issues to start the season (injury, COVID etc)

JB (13 games): 25.5pts, 7.9reb, 3.7ast, 0.9stl, 2.5tov on 48/38/83 in 35.mpg with 19.9FGA on 58.7%TS
&
Pascal (13 games): 23.3pts, 8.5reb, 6.5ast, 1.8stl, 0.5blk, 30.1to 49/42/73 on 38.9mpg on 18.2FGA on 56.1%TS

[Duke4life831]

I think youre splitting hairs with either one. I think both are in the same tier. And that tier is

If youre going for more of a top loaded team (2 all NBA quality players and a 3rd all star kind of team), great 3rd guy
If youre going for more of a deeper team, solid 2nd guy
If you plan on him being your #1 guy, youre screwed

They're borderline all stars in the East. What I mean by that is they have the talent to be an all star any given year, but you dont count on them being an all star.

Arguing between the two of them I think is kind of pointless. I think it mainly comes down to personal preference on play style. Impact wise I think they're pretty darn close.

[YogurtProducer]

You put brown on the raptors and nobody touches the ball. Siakam’s playmaking has been on another level this year.

If brown and Tatum are so good then why do they always underperform as a team? They’ve practically got the same record as a raptors team who have no bench and only have about 5 or 6 legit nba players. They get theirs but they impact the entire team negatively with their selfishness.

Hot take: Siakam is a better player than Tatum or Brown. Sure, he does not have as sexy of a game as either of them, but he is just better in most aspects of basketball. 3 point shooting is really the only argument you would have for the Celtics over Siakam.

I can understand the argument between Brown & Siakam but comparing Siakam to Tatum is laughable. If Siakam was defended the way Tatum was the Raptors would looking at a top 5 draft pick next year.

He... is? He is doubled a lot and draws the most attention from teams constantly. Last time Siakam was healthy was 2019-20, and he was 2nd all-nba. Tatum was 3rd. This is not some crazy proposition.

Explain to me this.. If Brown AND Tatum are better than Siakam (who is an all-star caliber player), why is Boston so average? They have better top end talent (according to you), a better bench (according to me), and before this season you could have made an argument on coaching. So why is Boston so underwhelming?

Maybe, Jaylen and Jayson are not as good as you think.

[YogurtProducer]

I think it’s pretty clearly Siakam. If I need one of these guys to get me a bucket in the clutch, I’ll go with Brown, but Siakam’s playmaking ability is lightyears ahead of Brown’s, he’s a much better rebounder, and I think as defenders go they are roughly equivalent, except that Siakam can guard 5s and Brown can’t.

Brown can guard 1-4. Let’s not forget when he shut down siakam in their playoffs series in 2020.

Lets not forget Brooklyn shut down Siakam with no defenders on their team, because Siakam in the bubble was just not who Siakam is pre-bubble or today.

[srhcan]

So Siakam wasn’t “comfortable in the bubble”, had an off season last year, was injured to start this season. Any other excuses Raptors fans want to give him?

Masai would trade Siakam for Brown in a heartbeat. He’s the better player the last few years, he’s the better player now and he will be better in the future. Siakams not a bad player, but Brown is better.

You have to think above your team's bias when the comparison between players involve a player on your team. Otherwise there is no point in comparison, you will always like your player more, stats be damned. Once you do that you will realize Siakam > Brown, except in bubble.

Masai found gold at # 27. In a 2016 redraft if Toronto and Boston switch places, Masai will still pick Siakam at #3. Heck there is no guarantee that Siakam will even be available at #3 for Masai. Bleacher Report has 76ers pick up Siakam at #1 in a redraft.

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/2889365-re-drafting-the-2016-nba-draft-class

[bisme37]

Hot take: Siakam is a better player than Tatum or Brown. Sure, he does not have as sexy of a game as either of them, but he is just better in most aspects of basketball. 3 point shooting is really the only argument you would have for the Celtics over Siakam.

I can understand the argument between Brown & Siakam but comparing Siakam to Tatum is laughable. If Siakam was defended the way Tatum was the Raptors would looking at a top 5 draft pick next year.

He... is? He is doubled a lot and draws the most attention from teams constantly. Last time Siakam was healthy was 2019-20, and he was 2nd all-nba. Tatum was 3rd. This is not some crazy proposition.

Explain to me this.. If Brown AND Tatum are better than Siakam (who is an all-star caliber player), why is Boston so average? They have better top end talent (according to you), a better bench (according to me), and before this season you could have made an argument on coaching. So why is Boston so underwhelming?

Maybe, Jaylen and Jayson are not as good as you think.

They've been to the ECFs twice in their early 20s as the top 2 options. This year and last we've been underwhelming but we've been hammered by covid (most man-games lost to covid in 2 consecutive seasons now) and injury (Jaylen was out for last year's playoffs among many other examples). And they have a new coach and he and the team are still figuring it out. We're getting better as the season goes on and looking like what we are supposed to be. I think you're reaching for unflattering conclusions here.

As for this year's Raps, they've been better than expected and Pascal is really coming on lately. I like your team. Congrats on what seems to be a pretty fun season for Raps fans.

Tatum is better than both Siakam and Brown. Siakam and Brown are different players and it's a coin flip. As is often goes around here, it feels like people are arguing just for the sake of the argument. Reminder that "winning" an argument on RGM does not in fact make your preferred plater better in real life.

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[YogurtProducer]

I can understand the argument between Brown & Siakam but comparing Siakam to Tatum is laughable. If Siakam was defended the way Tatum was the Raptors would looking at a top 5 draft pick next year.

He... is? He is doubled a lot and draws the most attention from teams constantly. Last time Siakam was healthy was 2019-20, and he was 2nd all-nba. Tatum was 3rd. This is not some crazy proposition.

Explain to me this.. If Brown AND Tatum are better than Siakam (who is an all-star caliber player), why is Boston so average? They have better top end talent (according to you), a better bench (according to me), and before this season you could have made an argument on coaching. So why is Boston so underwhelming?

Maybe, Jaylen and Jayson are not as good as you think.

They've been to the ECFs twice in their early 20s as the top 2 options. This year and last we've been underwhelming but we've been hammered by covid (most man-games lost to covid in 2 consecutive seasons now) and injury (Jaylen was out for last year's playoffs among many other examples). And they have a new coach and he and the team are still figuring it out. We're getting better as the season goes on and looking like what we are supposed to be. I think you're reaching for unflattering conclusions here.

As for this year's Raps, they've been better than expected and Pascal is really coming on lately. I like your team Congrats.

Tatum is better than both Siakam and Brown. Siakam and Brown are different players and it's a coin flip. As is often goes around here, it feels like people are arguing just for the sake of the argument. Reminder that "winning" an argument on RGM does not in fact make your preferred plater better in real life.

Okay, and Siakam was 1 shot away from being in an ECF as a first option and leaving both of them at one. (edit: actually Siakam would be at 2) Sure you can go 2>1 but that is ignoring a lot of context.

I am not convinced on Tatum. Even going back to 2020 when Pascal was last healthy, it was not clear to me that Tatum > Pascal. Sure, you accept that trade in a heartbeat as a Raptor (solely due to the age difference), but if Siakam and Tatum are traded for each other tomorrow, neither teams fates change drastically.

Siakam/Tatum are a coin flip at this point. Tatum has done nothing to deserve the accolades and love he receives.

[bisme37]

He... is? He is doubled a lot and draws the most attention from teams constantly. Last time Siakam was healthy was 2019-20, and he was 2nd all-nba. Tatum was 3rd. This is not some crazy proposition.

Explain to me this.. If Brown AND Tatum are better than Siakam (who is an all-star caliber player), why is Boston so average? They have better top end talent (according to you), a better bench (according to me), and before this season you could have made an argument on coaching. So why is Boston so underwhelming?

Maybe, Jaylen and Jayson are not as good as you think.

They've been to the ECFs twice in their early 20s as the top 2 options. This year and last we've been underwhelming but we've been hammered by covid (most man-games lost to covid in 2 consecutive seasons now) and injury (Jaylen was out for last year's playoffs among many other examples). And they have a new coach and he and the team are still figuring it out. We're getting better as the season goes on and looking like what we are supposed to be. I think you're reaching for unflattering conclusions here.

As for this year's Raps, they've been better than expected and Pascal is really coming on lately. I like your team Congrats.

Tatum is better than both Siakam and Brown. Siakam and Brown are different players and it's a coin flip. As is often goes around here, it feels like people are arguing just for the sake of the argument. Reminder that "winning" an argument on RGM does not in fact make your preferred plater better in real life.

Okay, and Siakam was 1 shot away from being in an ECF as a first option and leaving both of them at one. Sure you can go 2>0 but that is ignoring a lot of context.

I am not convinced on Tatum. Even going back to 2020 when Pascal was last healthy, it was not clear to me that Tatum > Pascal. Sure, you accept that trade in a heartbeat as a Raptor (solely due to the age difference), but if Siakam and Tatum are traded for each other tomorrow, neither teams fates change drastically.

Siakam/Tatum are a coin flip at this point. Tatum has done nothing to deserve the accolades and love he receives.

Eye roll emoji.

[YogurtProducer]

They've been to the ECFs twice in their early 20s as the top 2 options. This year and last we've been underwhelming but we've been hammered by covid (most man-games lost to covid in 2 consecutive seasons now) and injury (Jaylen was out for last year's playoffs among many other examples). And they have a new coach and he and the team are still figuring it out. We're getting better as the season goes on and looking like what we are supposed to be. I think you're reaching for unflattering conclusions here.

As for this year's Raps, they've been better than expected and Pascal is really coming on lately. I like your team Congrats.

Tatum is better than both Siakam and Brown. Siakam and Brown are different players and it's a coin flip. As is often goes around here, it feels like people are arguing just for the sake of the argument. Reminder that "winning" an argument on RGM does not in fact make your preferred plater better in real life.

Okay, and Siakam was 1 shot away from being in an ECF as a first option and leaving both of them at one. Sure you can go 2>0 but that is ignoring a lot of context.

I am not convinced on Tatum. Even going back to 2020 when Pascal was last healthy, it was not clear to me that Tatum > Pascal. Sure, you accept that trade in a heartbeat as a Raptor (solely due to the age difference), but if Siakam and Tatum are traded for each other tomorrow, neither teams fates change drastically.

Siakam/Tatum are a coin flip at this point. Tatum has done nothing to deserve the accolades and love he receives.

Eye roll emoji.

26.0/8.5/3.9 54.6TS% (21 shots a night)
21.3/8.3/5.1 55.2TS% (17 shots a night)

So Tatum shoots more, and that is about it. Again, outside of a 3 point shot, Siakam is better in pretty much every aspect of basketball.

Tatum/Brown/Siakam are all the same level of player. None really differentiates themselves from the pack.

Siakam is a better playmaker, Tatum is a better natural scorer. Both defensively are good-great although I think Siakam has a slight edge here.