Paul George probably out for the season.

[mpoo_sin]

I appreciate the example, but the logic does not follow. You are arguing that because nonsurgical options did not work in this particular case that, therefore, nonsurgical options will not work in any case. That conclusion is completely unfounded. If it is the case, then clearly you know something that the team doctors of the Angels and Clippers, as well as the medical community writ large, do not, because if surgery was necessary following such an injury then both of the teams needlessly postponed the inevitable.

They don't work lol I'll repeat, the only way to repair an UCL is with Tommy John surgery.

You find me an example where someone who required Tommy John surgery was able to avoid UCL reconstruction surgery indefinitely with other means and measures to continue their career, then I'll listen.

Until then, this is nothing more than someone putting their hands over their eyes to avoid the scary part of the movie.

I think that is true mostly for baseball players, as apparently some NBA players have recovered without surgery.

If what you are saying is true, it makes no sense for PG not to have already had the surgery in order for him to recover in time for the start of next season

Well it actually does, if you do not look at it purely from a basketball pov. Maybe he can not take 500 shots a day without having pain in his elbow with that kind of injury. But he can still have a pretty nice life.
I speculated about other possible reasons earlier. I think the Clippers also think that having surgery before the trade deadline will weaken their position in negotiations. He will get surgery after the deadline which gives him ample time to recover before next season.

[JujitsuFlip]

I appreciate the example, but the logic does not follow. You are arguing that because nonsurgical options did not work in this particular case that, therefore, nonsurgical options will not work in any case. That conclusion is completely unfounded. If it is the case, then clearly you know something that the team doctors of the Angels and Clippers, as well as the medical community writ large, do not, because if surgery was necessary following such an injury then both of the teams needlessly postponed the inevitable.

They don't work lol I'll repeat, the only way to repair an UCL is with Tommy John surgery.

You find me an example where someone who required Tommy John surgery was able to avoid UCL reconstruction surgery indefinitely with other means and measures to continue their career, then I'll listen.

Until then, this is nothing more than someone putting their hands over their eyes to avoid the scary part of the movie.

I think that is true mostly for baseball players, as apparently some NBA players have recovered without surgery.

If what you are saying is true, it makes no sense for PG not to have already had the surgery in order for him to recover in time for the start of next season

The only athlete I can think of off the top of my head who refused to get Tommy John surgery for his elbow injury was Carson Palmer.

Even then, Palmer didn't throw a football for 6 to 8 months to rest the elbow. Followed by that elbow constantly being a concern from that point forward throughout various points of his career.

[Kurtz]

Here's an interesting timeline for ya.

Shohei Ohtani signed with the Angels on December 8th 2017, he had a stem cell injection on December 13th 2017 in his right elbow for a grade 1 UCL sprain.

On June 8th 2018 Shohei Ohtani was placed on the DL with a grade 2 UCL sprain in his right elbow; he received another stem cell injection.

On July 2nd 2018 he was activated purely as a hitter.

On September 2nd 2018 Shohei Ohtani starts his first game as a pitcher in almost three months and only pitches 2.1 innings. The very next day an MRI revealed new damage to his right UCL.

After playing 24 more games as strictly a batter, Shohei Ohtani underwent successful UCL reconstruction surgery on October 1st 2018.

Moral of the story, the only way to repair an UCL is with Tommy John surgery.

I appreciate the example, but the logic does not follow. You are arguing that because nonsurgical options did not work in this particular case that, therefore, nonsurgical options will not work in any case. That conclusion is completely unfounded. If it is the case, then clearly you know something that the team doctors of the Angels and Clippers, as well as the medical community writ large, do not, because if surgery was necessary following such an injury then both of the teams needlessly postponed the inevitable.

They don't work lol I'll repeat, the only way to repair an UCL is with Tommy John surgery.

You find me an example where someone who required Tommy John surgery was able to avoid UCL reconstruction surgery indefinitely with other means and measures to continue their career, then I'll listen.

Until then, this is nothing more than someone putting their hands over their eyes to avoid the scary part of the movie.

Former Yankees ace Masahiro Tanaka.

[JujitsuFlip]

I appreciate the example, but the logic does not follow. You are arguing that because nonsurgical options did not work in this particular case that, therefore, nonsurgical options will not work in any case. That conclusion is completely unfounded. If it is the case, then clearly you know something that the team doctors of the Angels and Clippers, as well as the medical community writ large, do not, because if surgery was necessary following such an injury then both of the teams needlessly postponed the inevitable.

They don't work lol I'll repeat, the only way to repair an UCL is with Tommy John surgery.

You find me an example where someone who required Tommy John surgery was able to avoid UCL reconstruction surgery indefinitely with other means and measures to continue their career, then I'll listen.

Until then, this is nothing more than someone putting their hands over their eyes to avoid the scary part of the movie.

Former Yankees ace Masahiro Tanaka.

Good example, very similar to the Carson Palmer example I just gave. Masahiro Tanaka received the stem cell injection then rested for almost 3 months pitched two games, then rested another ~5 months.

Either way, to Goner's original point, with or without Tommy John surgery, PG13 is done for the season.

[Goner]

They don't work lol I'll repeat, the only way to repair an UCL is with Tommy John surgery.

You find me an example where someone who required Tommy John surgery was able to avoid UCL reconstruction surgery indefinitely with other means and measures to continue their career, then I'll listen.

Until then, this is nothing more than someone putting their hands over their eyes to avoid the scary part of the movie.

Former Yankees ace Masahiro Tanaka.

Good example, very similar to the Carson Palmer example I just gave. Masahiro Tanaka received the stem cell injection then rested for almost 3 months pitched two games, then rested another ~5 months.

Either way, to Goner's original point, with or without Tommy John surgery, PG13 is done for the season.

My "point" was more a critique of your point that Tommy John surgery was necessary to recover from UCL injury, which, it seems, you've shifted the goalposts entirely. Now you're saying that UCL damage either results in a) Tommy John surgery or b) significant rehab/rest time; essentially an admission that your original point of Tommy John surgery necessarily being required for recovery is false. Strangely, you commit the same error in logic that I criticized in your earlier point in your ad hoc hypothesis: that because in cases where UCL injury did not require surgery, per Kurtz example, it took a long time for the athlete to recover that it would take just as long for any athlete to recover in all cases not requiring surgery; a conclusion which is, again, unfounded.

[JujitsuFlip]

Former Yankees ace Masahiro Tanaka.

Good example, very similar to the Carson Palmer example I just gave. Masahiro Tanaka received the stem cell injection then rested for almost 3 months pitched two games, then rested another ~5 months.

Either way, to Goner's original point, with or without Tommy John surgery, PG13 is done for the season.

My "point" was more a critique of your point that Tommy John surgery was necessary to recover from UCL injury, which, it seems, you've shifted the goalposts entirely. Now you're saying that UCL damage either results in a) Tommy John surgery or b) significant rehab/rest time; essentially an admission that your original point of Tommy John surgery necessarily being required for recovery is false. Strangely, you commit the same error in logic that I criticized in your earlier point in your ad hoc hypothesis: that because in cases where UCL injury did not require surgery, per Kurtz example, it took a long time for the athlete to recover that it would take just as long for any athlete to recover in all cases not requiring surgery; a conclusion which is, again, unfounded.

I was talking about your original point with OP, not whatever peeking through fingers to see the scary part of the movie you just referenced.

I don't mind Kurtz and myself proving my first statement invalid. It's specifically what I asked, lol

PG13 is out for the season, we can rehash it later when it finally gets announced.

[Goner]

I was talking about your original point with OP, not whatever peeking through fingers to see the scary part of the movie you just referenced.

I don't mind Kurtz and myself proving my first statement invalid. It's specifically what I asked, lol

PG13 is out for the season, we can rehash it later when it finally gets announced.

Here's the quote to jog your memory:
"Here's an interesting timeline for ya.

Shohei Ohtani signed with the Angels on December 8th 2017, he had a stem cell injection on December 13th 2017 in his right elbow for a grade 1 UCL sprain.

On June 8th 2018 Shohei Ohtani was placed on the DL with a grade 2 UCL sprain in his right elbow; he received another stem cell injection.

On July 2nd 2018 he was activated purely as a hitter.

On September 2nd 2018 Shohei Ohtani starts his first game as a pitcher in almost three months and only pitches 2.1 innings. The very next day an MRI revealed new damage to his right UCL.

After playing 24 more games as strictly a batter, Shohei Ohtani underwent successful UCL reconstruction surgery on October 1st 2018.

Moral of the story, the only way to repair [a] UCL is with Tommy John surgery."

My position has always been that we don't know if he is out for the season: we don't even know the likelihood of that being the case. So, if you're following what I'm saying, PG could get surgery tomorrow OR not play for the rest of the season and my point would still stand, as your layperson research methodology of "This is what gets reported on pitchers with UCL damage" is profoundly lacking.

[nickhx2]

internet detectives are experts, yo

[JujitsuFlip]

I was talking about your original point with OP, not whatever peeking through fingers to see the scary part of the movie you just referenced.

I don't mind Kurtz and myself proving my first statement invalid. It's specifically what I asked, lol

PG13 is out for the season, we can rehash it later when it finally gets announced.

My position has always been that we don't know if he is out for the season: we don't even know the likelihood of that being the case. So, if you're following what I'm saying, PG could get surgery tomorrow OR not play for the rest of the season and my point would still stand, as your layperson research methodology of "This is what gets reported on pitchers with UCL damage" is profoundly lacking.

Don't say we, everyone else knows PG is out for the season, lol

Dec 6 sprained elbow, rest 2 weeks.

Dec 20 returns, plays 2 games then MRI reveals torn UCL in his elbow.

Dec 25 told to rest for 3 to 4 weeks, then be reevaluated.

Jan 18 announced "The team will now evaluate how George's elbow responds to rest over the next few weeks".

I wish we had seen this pattern somewhere else in the past before. I guess we'll collectively have to cover our eyes to avoid the jump scare, some of us may peek through our fingers though.

[mpoo_sin]

I was talking about your original point with OP, not whatever peeking through fingers to see the scary part of the movie you just referenced.

I don't mind Kurtz and myself proving my first statement invalid. It's specifically what I asked, lol

PG13 is out for the season, we can rehash it later when it finally gets announced.

Here's the quote to jog your memory:
"Here's an interesting timeline for ya.

Shohei Ohtani signed with the Angels on December 8th 2017, he had a stem cell injection on December 13th 2017 in his right elbow for a grade 1 UCL sprain.

On June 8th 2018 Shohei Ohtani was placed on the DL with a grade 2 UCL sprain in his right elbow; he received another stem cell injection.

On July 2nd 2018 he was activated purely as a hitter.

On September 2nd 2018 Shohei Ohtani starts his first game as a pitcher in almost three months and only pitches 2.1 innings. The very next day an MRI revealed new damage to his right UCL.

After playing 24 more games as strictly a batter, Shohei Ohtani underwent successful UCL reconstruction surgery on October 1st 2018.

Moral of the story, the only way to repair [a] UCL is with Tommy John surgery."

My position has always been that we don't know if he is out for the season: we don't even know the likelihood of that being the case. So, if you're following what I'm saying, PG could get surgery tomorrow OR not play for the rest of the season and my point would still stand, as your layperson research methodology of "This is what gets reported on pitchers with UCL damage" is profoundly lacking.

That somehow reminds me of the apes that cover their eyes, ears and mouths.
The way you are arguing noone can ever anticipate, reason or expect anything ever because one can not know anything with absolute certainty before it actually happening.

In the case of the infamous Livingston-injury would you argue the same way if someone had said that he is out for the season before the official statement of the team was made?

[Goner]

I was talking about your original point with OP, not whatever peeking through fingers to see the scary part of the movie you just referenced.

I don't mind Kurtz and myself proving my first statement invalid. It's specifically what I asked, lol

PG13 is out for the season, we can rehash it later when it finally gets announced.

Here's the quote to jog your memory:
"Here's an interesting timeline for ya.

Shohei Ohtani signed with the Angels on December 8th 2017, he had a stem cell injection on December 13th 2017 in his right elbow for a grade 1 UCL sprain.

On June 8th 2018 Shohei Ohtani was placed on the DL with a grade 2 UCL sprain in his right elbow; he received another stem cell injection.

On July 2nd 2018 he was activated purely as a hitter.

On September 2nd 2018 Shohei Ohtani starts his first game as a pitcher in almost three months and only pitches 2.1 innings. The very next day an MRI revealed new damage to his right UCL.

After playing 24 more games as strictly a batter, Shohei Ohtani underwent successful UCL reconstruction surgery on October 1st 2018.

Moral of the story, the only way to repair [a] UCL is with Tommy John surgery."

My position has always been that we don't know if he is out for the season: we don't even know the likelihood of that being the case. So, if you're following what I'm saying, PG could get surgery tomorrow OR not play for the rest of the season and my point would still stand, as your layperson research methodology of "This is what gets reported on pitchers with UCL damage" is profoundly lacking.

That somehow reminds me of the apes that cover their eyes, ears and mouths.
The way you are arguing noone can ever anticipate, reason or expect anything ever because one can not know anything with absolute certainty before it actually happening.

In the case of the infamous Livingston-injury would you argue the same way if someone had said that he is out for the season before the official statement of the team was made?

With such a gruesome injury event? Probably not. But we don't have an ostensive injury event to point to.

edit: as to your weird jab at the end, I don't believe in absolute certainty, as infallibilism has been dead for some time, now. I try to ground my beliefs in the products of epistemic virtue, as expert explanation, and not in speculations from internet laypeople.

[Goner]

I was talking about your original point with OP, not whatever peeking through fingers to see the scary part of the movie you just referenced.

I don't mind Kurtz and myself proving my first statement invalid. It's specifically what I asked, lol

PG13 is out for the season, we can rehash it later when it finally gets announced.

Here's the quote to jog your memory:
"Here's an interesting timeline for ya.

Shohei Ohtani signed with the Angels on December 8th 2017, he had a stem cell injection on December 13th 2017 in his right elbow for a grade 1 UCL sprain.

On June 8th 2018 Shohei Ohtani was placed on the DL with a grade 2 UCL sprain in his right elbow; he received another stem cell injection.

On July 2nd 2018 he was activated purely as a hitter.

On September 2nd 2018 Shohei Ohtani starts his first game as a pitcher in almost three months and only pitches 2.1 innings. The very next day an MRI revealed new damage to his right UCL.

After playing 24 more games as strictly a batter, Shohei Ohtani underwent successful UCL reconstruction surgery on October 1st 2018.

Moral of the story, the only way to repair [a] UCL is with Tommy John surgery."

My position has always been that we don't know if he is out for the season: we don't even know the likelihood of that being the case. So, if you're following what I'm saying, PG could get surgery tomorrow OR not play for the rest of the season and my point would still stand, as your layperson research methodology of "This is what gets reported on pitchers with UCL damage" is profoundly lacking.

That somehow reminds me of the apes that cover their eyes, ears and mouths.
The way you are arguing noone can ever anticipate, reason or expect anything ever because one can not know anything with absolute certainty before it actually happening.

In the case of the infamous Livingston-injury would you argue the same way if someone had said that he is out for the season before the official statement of the team was made?

Here's what I found with a quick internet search

Watch on YouTube

So injuries to this CT tend to be different when occurring in different sports.