OT: Bonds & Clemens Miss HOF

[macNcheese3]

It is harsh not seeing some of the greatest I've seen play not get in, but they got busted and are paying the piper, that doesn't mean they don't deserve it though. They were household names in America at least.

Ortiz got busted and he's in on the first ballot. A far inferior player to Bonds, Clemens and A-Rod. It's about personal bias against those guys.

Completely forgot about that. Good correction.

[shakes0]

With all due respect, Shakes, how do you know he was clean?

Frank was far and away the most vocal player back then in terms of guys speaking out against steroids. If there’s one guy who didn’t juice back then it was definitely Frank Thomas.

I mean if we go by this standard, Lance Armstrong was the cleanest bike rider up until 2012. All he would do was talk about how bad dopers are back in the day and up until he get caught.

Great whataboutism, but it falls flat because unlike Lance, Frank never tested positive and remained true to his anti-steroid stance from day 1 to day now.

Until you find any iota of evidence that Frank Thomas juiced I'll stick with the mountain of evidence that suggests he was clean.

[King4Day]

I think they should get in for what they did prior to juicing but given Rose was never forgiven for doing something that (supposedly) never impacted the game, I am not surprised they didn't get in. A-Rod won't either.

[dhsilv2]

Frank was far and away the most vocal player back then in terms of guys speaking out against steroids. If there’s one guy who didn’t juice back then it was definitely Frank Thomas.

I mean if we go by this standard, Lance Armstrong was the cleanest bike rider up until 2012. All he would do was talk about how bad dopers are back in the day and up until he get caught.

Great whataboutism, but it falls flat because unlike Lance, Frank never tested positive and remained true to his anti-steroid stance from day 1 to day now.

Until you find any iota of evidence that Frank Thomas juiced I'll stick with the mountain of evidence that suggests he was clean.

The thing is...if any of these players had actually been anti steroids, they'd have blown the whistle. None of them did and this stuff was all out in the open. In short...they were nearly all doing it. Hell at the time there were LEGAL over the counter orals that hadn't even been banned. With no testing guys taken just random off the shelf supplements could have been using some pretty dang bad for you and somewhat effective drugs. It's unlikely any player in that era was completely clean and I mean any player.

[Raptors Realtor]

Bonds is so arrogant and unlikable that I'm fine with him being excluded... The same to a lesser extent could probably be said about Clemens.

[TwitterFingers]

I think they should get in for what they did prior to juicing but given Rose was never forgiven for doing something that (supposedly) never impacted the game, I am not surprised they didn't get in. A-Rod won't either.

Ortiz shouldn’t have gone in if those guys don’t get in

[bebopdeluxe]

Here's the thing, if youre going to go with the whole "you took PEDs youre not getting in thing". Fine I don't agree with it but you better hold strong on that stance then. Because once you let one in, what is the reason for not letting the others in?

This is the issue with letting Big Papi in. He popped, so why does he get in when the others dont? The only possible reason is because sports writers and media liked his personality more. Because lets be real, Ortiz wasn't that good of a player until he got to Boston and started juicing.

So ya now its not longer guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and so on arent in because they got caught juicing. They're not in because the sports writers didnt like them personally. That makes it an even bigger joke.

While I do agree with you about Ortiz, the test that supposedly outed him never specified exactly "what" he took, and there were some people within MLB (including Manfried) who floated the narrative that there may have been mistakes in the testing protocol that Ortiz failed.

At least that is what I would guess some writers are leaning on in terms of their separation of Ortiz from Bonds and Clemons.

[dhsilv2]

Here's the thing, if youre going to go with the whole "you took PEDs youre not getting in thing". Fine I don't agree with it but you better hold strong on that stance then. Because once you let one in, what is the reason for not letting the others in?

This is the issue with letting Big Papi in. He popped, so why does he get in when the others dont? The only possible reason is because sports writers and media liked his personality more. Because lets be real, Ortiz wasn't that good of a player until he got to Boston and started juicing.

So ya now its not longer guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and so on arent in because they got caught juicing. They're not in because the sports writers didnt like them personally. That makes it an even bigger joke.

https://www.businessinsider.com/david-ortiz-cheating-essay-2015-3

hes never taken PEDs from his mouth

This might be the single dumbest thing an athlete has ever said. Bro...everyone knew EXACTLY what was in those supplements LOL.

[Joshyjess]

Let's be clear - Ortiz did not test postivive for peds. His name was on a list of players that tested positive, but that same list was shown to have multiple false postivies. No information about what Ortiz was supposed to have taken was released. You cannot definitively say that he took roids, without knowing what it is that he was supposed to have taken.
Did he take em? Who knows. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but the difference between Ortiz and Bonds and Clemens is that they did test positive (with info about what they took). Being accused of something doesn't mean that you did it. Also, after that list Papi was tested over and over and never tested postive again - yet he maintained his incredible numbers while obviously being PED free.
Again, I'm not saying that he did or didn't take roids, all I'm saying is that there is a big difference between his case and that of the others.
Oh, and btw, I do think that both Clemmons and Bonds should also be in the Hall

[King4Day]

I think they should get in for what they did prior to juicing but given Rose was never forgiven for doing something that (supposedly) never impacted the game, I am not surprised they didn't get in. A-Rod won't either.

Ortiz shouldn’t have gone in if those guys don’t get in

I'm a Yankee fan and am not happy about it. I don't know all the details behind the scenes with him. Not sure how he didn't get more heat on him but it is what is is. I'm sure other juice heads are in, or are going to go in, the HoF that were able to get past the system.

Guys like Bonds and Clemens probably should be in with a note on their plaque that they played during that era.

[shakes0]

I mean if we go by this standard, Lance Armstrong was the cleanest bike rider up until 2012. All he would do was talk about how bad dopers are back in the day and up until he get caught.

Great whataboutism, but it falls flat because unlike Lance, Frank never tested positive and remained true to his anti-steroid stance from day 1 to day now.

Until you find any iota of evidence that Frank Thomas juiced I'll stick with the mountain of evidence that suggests he was clean.

The thing is...if any of these players had actually been anti steroids, they'd have blown the whistle. None of them did and this stuff was all out in the open. In short...they were nearly all doing it. Hell at the time there were LEGAL over the counter orals that hadn't even been banned. With no testing guys taken just random off the shelf supplements could have been using some pretty dang bad for you and somewhat effective drugs. It's unlikely any player in that era was completely clean and I mean any player.

the thing is....Frank did blow the whistle. Did you Slicebread's post on page 1? Frank is the ONLY player who was advocating for all players to be tested as early as 1995. He's also the ONLY player to openly testify for the Mitchell Report. So yes, Frank DID blow the whistle.


Please read Slicebread's post on page 1. He gives a great accounting of how Frank Thomas was the 90s lone crusader against steroids.

[Ballerhogger]

Here's the thing, if youre going to go with the whole "you took PEDs youre not getting in thing". Fine I don't agree with it but you better hold strong on that stance then. Because once you let one in, what is the reason for not letting the others in?

This is the issue with letting Big Papi in. He popped, so why does he get in when the others dont? The only possible reason is because sports writers and media liked his personality more. Because lets be real, Ortiz wasn't that good of a player until he got to Boston and started juicing.

So ya now its not longer guys like Bonds, Clemens, A-Rod and so on arent in because they got caught juicing. They're not in because the sports writers didnt like them personally. That makes it an even bigger joke.

https://www.businessinsider.com/david-ortiz-cheating-essay-2015-3

hes never taken PEDs from his mouth

This might be the single dumbest thing an athlete has ever said. Bro...everyone knew EXACTLY what was in those supplements LOL.

oh.............. then yea he shouldn't be in either.

[Sedale Threatt]

Some pretty good points. I was definitely in the "no" camp but can see where the "yesses" are coming from, especially as it relates to how MLB and the journalists who covered the sport enabled the whole thing.

As a former reporter myself, that was a complete failure on that end to cast such little critical light on how so many players were jacking so many home runs. It was a spectacle to behold, and they pretty much got swept up in it like everybody else. But if Brady Anderson hitting 50 isn't a red flag, are you even paying attention?

That's not how it's supposed to work, especially when it's so widespread. If it's 1 or 2 guys, OK, that's a lot harder to prove. But it was a not-so-open secret for well over a decade before anyone dug into it in a serious way. Again, that's not supposed to be how it works. Like a 5-year-old whose parents let them eat whatever they want, players did it because they could, so it's more than a little hypocritical for those same gatekeepers to be crying foul so far after the fact.

[wco81]

Also, didn't Ortiz get popped for performance enhancing drugs?

Yes, that is correct. The whole thing is actually pretty remarkable.

It's these old baseball writers who have their old biases.

Bonds and Clemens were both surly to the media, so a lot of it is popularity contest among those voting.

Who cares though, most baseball fans will never go to the HoF. Mostly likely they will read Wikis about players, see their highlights on Youtube than visit the HoF in person or even visit the HoF website.

That's true for older fans too, who followed sports before the Internet when you had to look at almanacs and old magazine articles.

Players do care, as do all the coaches, who are now in their 60s and some in their 70s because they grew up the old way, with the best players always getting HoF.

But in this case, fans know who Bonds and Clemens are. There will be documentaries about them at some point, which will make people go look at their highlights again. They're as famous as any other HoF player, if not way more so.

HoF will get more and more irrelevant. That's true for all the sports.

[hardenASG13]

Also, didn't Ortiz get popped for performance enhancing drugs?

Yes, that is correct. The whole thing is actually pretty remarkable.

It's these old baseball writers who have their old biases.

Bonds and Clemens were both surly to the media, so a lot of it is popularity contest among those voting.

Who cares though, most baseball fans will never go to the HoF. Mostly likely they will read Wikis about players, see their highlights on Youtube than visit the HoF in person or even visit the HoF website.

That's true for older fans too, who followed sports before the Internet when you had to look at almanacs and old magazine articles.

Players do care, as do all the coaches, who are now in their 60s and some in their 70s because they grew up the old way, with the best players always getting HoF.

But in this case, fans know who Bonds and Clemens are. There will be documentaries about them at some point, which will make people go look at their highlights again. They're as famous as any other HoF player, if not way more so.

HoF will get more and more irrelevant. That's true for all the sports.

My thoughts exactly. Something exists now that didnt when the hall of fame was founded, its called the internet. Anyone interest in looking at who the best players in an era were can find the information without visiting the hall of fame.

If anything, it will probably get them talked about more frequently for a longer period of time, similar to Pete Rose. Take a guy like Chipper Jones, inducted in 2018. Does anyone talk about him or care because of it?

They were two of the most dominant, if not the most dominant players for a long time and anyone who is curious about their era can look at the stats whenever they want in two seconds on their phone which they have access to 24/7. Who cares about the baseball writers hall of fame.

[BostonCouchGM]

They all juiced. Frank, Griffey (despite the laughable narrative that he was the one who was clean (Dude ballooned from 190 lbs to 250 lbs lol) Sosa, Bonds, etc. but so didn’t the pitchers. It’s absurd that any of them are left out when they dominated the era. Especially Bonds and Clemens who both clearly weren’t using for first decade of career and had already had HOF worthy impact by then. It’s all a joke. It’s now the Hall of Very Good not the Hall of Fame

[bebopdeluxe]

Also, didn't Ortiz get popped for performance enhancing drugs?

Yes, that is correct. The whole thing is actually pretty remarkable.

It's these old baseball writers who have their old biases.

Bonds and Clemens were both surly to the media, so a lot of it is popularity contest among those voting.

Who cares though, most baseball fans will never go to the HoF. Mostly likely they will read Wikis about players, see their highlights on Youtube than visit the HoF in person or even visit the HoF website.

That's true for older fans too, who followed sports before the Internet when you had to look at almanacs and old magazine articles.

Players do care, as do all the coaches, who are now in their 60s and some in their 70s because they grew up the old way, with the best players always getting HoF.

But in this case, fans know who Bonds and Clemens are. There will be documentaries about them at some point, which will make people go look at their highlights again. They're as famous as any other HoF player, if not way more so.

HoF will get more and more irrelevant. That's true for all the sports.

ESPN just did an E60 about Bonds in front of this vote. I watched it over the weekend.

It just reinforced what I said in an earlier post. He was a no-doubt-about-it, first-ballot guy who would have still been a 500/500 guy.

But he juiced.

"Oh...I didn't know what was in the 'clear' and the 'creme'..." Yeah, right.

You can buy a ticket to get into the HOF, Barry. What a egotistical loser. Couldn't stand watching the roid guys getting all the ink.

What was that my mom told me? "Just because somebody else does it doesn't mean its right."

If they want to put a "Cheaters Wing" in, that would be great - it could be MLB's version of a "truth and reconciliiation" commission. Because MLB has to own it as well. They knew what was going on, but they loved the TV ratings and gate receipts.

"Chicks dig the long ball" - right?

It was all fine - until the Caminiti/SI article came out. Then MLB had to get all holier-than-now. Too late, guys.

Bonds? I don't feel sorry for him AT ALL. He knew what he was doing. If you cheat, you don't get the money AND the adulation AND STILL get into the hall. Same with Clemons and all the other HOF-worthy players without the juice WHO STILL JUICED.

[dhsilv2]

Great whataboutism, but it falls flat because unlike Lance, Frank never tested positive and remained true to his anti-steroid stance from day 1 to day now.

Until you find any iota of evidence that Frank Thomas juiced I'll stick with the mountain of evidence that suggests he was clean.

The thing is...if any of these players had actually been anti steroids, they'd have blown the whistle. None of them did and this stuff was all out in the open. In short...they were nearly all doing it. Hell at the time there were LEGAL over the counter orals that hadn't even been banned. With no testing guys taken just random off the shelf supplements could have been using some pretty dang bad for you and somewhat effective drugs. It's unlikely any player in that era was completely clean and I mean any player.

the thing is....Frank did blow the whistle. Did you Slicebread's post on page 1? Frank is the ONLY player who was advocating for all players to be tested as early as 1995. He's also the ONLY player to openly testify for the Mitchell Report. So yes, Frank DID blow the whistle.


Please read Slicebread's post on page 1. He gives a great accounting of how Frank Thomas was the 90s lone crusader against steroids.

I don't think you know what whistle blowing is...

[shakes0]

The thing is...if any of these players had actually been anti steroids, they'd have blown the whistle. None of them did and this stuff was all out in the open. In short...they were nearly all doing it. Hell at the time there were LEGAL over the counter orals that hadn't even been banned. With no testing guys taken just random off the shelf supplements could have been using some pretty dang bad for you and somewhat effective drugs. It's unlikely any player in that era was completely clean and I mean any player.

the thing is....Frank did blow the whistle. Did you Slicebread's post on page 1? Frank is the ONLY player who was advocating for all players to be tested as early as 1995. He's also the ONLY player to openly testify for the Mitchell Report. So yes, Frank DID blow the whistle.


Please read Slicebread's post on page 1. He gives a great accounting of how Frank Thomas was the 90s lone crusader against steroids.

I don't think you know what whistle blowing is...

constantly telling anyone who would listen that there should be mandatory testing for all players.
the only player who testified in the Mitchell Report.


I know what whistleblowing means just like I know what semantics mean.

[dhsilv2]

Let's be clear - Ortiz did not test postivive for peds. His name was on a list of players that tested positive, but that same list was shown to have multiple false postivies. No information about what Ortiz was supposed to have taken was released. You cannot definitively say that he took roids, without knowing what it is that he was supposed to have taken.
Did he take em? Who knows. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't, but the difference between Ortiz and Bonds and Clemens is that they did test positive (with info about what they took). Being accused of something doesn't mean that you did it. Also, after that list Papi was tested over and over and never tested postive again - yet he maintained his incredible numbers while obviously being PED free.
Again, I'm not saying that he did or didn't take roids, all I'm saying is that there is a big difference between his case and that of the others.
Oh, and btw, I do think that both Clemmons and Bonds should also be in the Hall

When did bond's test positive? As best I know his name was found on a list with an associated number among balco tests, with no clear chain of command. Is there another test outside of the Balco leak? Cause if that's it...he never failed an MLB drug test. And the lack of chain of command would make that test at least as questionable as Ortiz.