2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

[Doctor MJ]

Once again, Jokic asks Embiid to 'hold my beer', 28 and 21 (and 9)

The number of rebounds look great but it has a lot to do with bad rebounding from his team mates.

Denver top rebounders:
Nikola Jokic 13.8
Aaron Gordon 5.6
Will Barton 4.8
JaMychal Green 3.7

Jokic grabs 32% of his teams rebounds.

Phily top rebounders:
Joel Embiid 10.7
Andre Drummond 8.8
Tobias Harris 7.4
Tyrese Maxey 3.4
Seth Curry 3.4

Embiid grabs 25% of his teams rebounds.

Milwaukee top rebounders:
Giannis Antetokounmpo 11.3
Bobby Portis 9.5
Khris Middleton 5.7
Jrue Holiday 4.6
Pat Connaughton 4.5
Jordan Nwora 4.1

Giannis grabs 23% of his teams rebounds.

Bucks are 2nd in rebounding, Nuggets 26th, 6ers 30th.
Top 4 in rebouding are Memphis, Mil, GSW and Utah. Suns are 7th. You could argue these are the best teams in the league.
Bucks were a great rebounding team with Brook Lopez, who only averages 5 boards per game.

Maybe the centers of Denver and Phily should focus more on boxing out and make sure their team mates get more (easy) boards in stead of grabbing as much as possible them selves to increase their own PER and MVP chances...

This is a great point though I’d note that Denver has considerably more effective rebounding than Philly in addition to Jokic playing a bigger rebounding role.

Not looking to say that Embiid can’t be MVP because he’s a strong candidate if he just stays healthy.


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[Cubbies2120]

Once again, Jokic asks Embiid to 'hold my beer', 28 and 21 (and 9)

The number of rebounds look great but it has a lot to do with bad rebounding from his team mates.

Denver top rebounders:
Nikola Jokic 13.8
Aaron Gordon 5.6
Will Barton 4.8
JaMychal Green 3.7

Jokic grabs 32% of his teams rebounds.

Phily top rebounders:
Joel Embiid 10.7
Andre Drummond 8.8
Tobias Harris 7.4
Tyrese Maxey 3.4
Seth Curry 3.4

Embiid grabs 25% of his teams rebounds.

Milwaukee top rebounders:
Giannis Antetokounmpo 11.3
Bobby Portis 9.5
Khris Middleton 5.7
Jrue Holiday 4.6
Pat Connaughton 4.5
Jordan Nwora 4.1

Giannis grabs 23% of his teams rebounds.

Bucks are 2nd in rebounding, Nuggets 26th, 6ers 30th.
Top 4 in rebouding are Memphis, Mil, GSW and Utah. Suns are 7th. You could argue these are the best teams in the league.
Bucks were a great rebounding team with Brook Lopez, who only averages 5 boards per game.

Maybe the centers of Denver and Phily should focus more on boxing out and make sure their team mates get more (easy) boards in stead of grabbing as much as possible them selves to increase their own PER and MVP chances...

This is a great point though I’d note that Denver has considerably more effective rebounding than Philly in addition to Jokic playing a bigger rebounding role.

Not looking to say that Embiid can’t be MVP because he’s a strong candidate if he just stays healthy.


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Jokic gets 44.8% of his rebounds (6.2) as contested rebounds (#1 in entire NBA), Embiid gets 43.6% (4.7) as contested rebounds (#14), and Giannis gets 32.3% of his rebounds (3.6) as contested, good for #26 in the NBA. Maybe the big man on Milwaukee should focus more on getting in the paint and contesting rebounds instead of hoping they fall to him...

[Infinite Llamas]

Once again, Jokic asks Embiid to 'hold my beer', 28 and 21 (and 9)

The number of rebounds look great but it has a lot to do with bad rebounding from his team mates.

Denver top rebounders:
Nikola Jokic 13.8
Aaron Gordon 5.6
Will Barton 4.8
JaMychal Green 3.7

Jokic grabs 32% of his teams rebounds.

Phily top rebounders:
Joel Embiid 10.7
Andre Drummond 8.8
Tobias Harris 7.4
Tyrese Maxey 3.4
Seth Curry 3.4

Embiid grabs 25% of his teams rebounds.

Milwaukee top rebounders:
Giannis Antetokounmpo 11.3
Bobby Portis 9.5
Khris Middleton 5.7
Jrue Holiday 4.6
Pat Connaughton 4.5
Jordan Nwora 4.1

Giannis grabs 23% of his teams rebounds.

Bucks are 2nd in rebounding, Nuggets 26th, 6ers 30th.
Top 4 in rebouding are Memphis, Mil, GSW and Utah. Suns are 7th. You could argue these are the best teams in the league.
Bucks were a great rebounding team with Brook Lopez, who only averages 5 boards per game.

Maybe the centers of Denver and Phily should focus more on boxing out and make sure their team mates get more (easy) boards in stead of grabbing as much as possible them selves to increase their own PER and MVP chances...

Why should Jokic box out so an inferior rebounder can get the ball only to hand it off back to him? With Jokic grabbing the rebound it gives him a chance to push the offense or throw an outlet pass. I saw Barton and Morris combine to grab a rebound the other day and they bumped into the other and the ball went out of bounds. Barton is notorious for trying to pad his rebounds too.

Jokic isn’t a rebound passer. He grabs them out of necessity.

I recall the Charlotte game the other day when Terry Rozier had a wide open three with the Hornets up four and rather than run to contest him, Giannis stood pat and looked for the rebound instead.

[scrabbarista]

Checked in on bbref this morning. Despite the (deserved) hype Embiid's gotten for his recent play, it's interesting to note that he and Giannis have almost identical statistical profiles. The biggest differences at a glance are that Giannis' team has two more wins, he's played three more games, and he averages two more assists. Their ppg, rpg, bpg, spg, and TS% are almost mirror images when you take in the whole picture.

Right now I'd definitely go with Jokic, who has been unreal to this point, but the other two bigs are still well within striking distance.

[Genjuro]

If Joker can get his team to a top 3 he could win again.

He would most likely win, but we'll never know because it's impossible for the Nuggets to get there, let's get real. He still could make it without being a top-3 seed. As great as he's playing, I wouldn't bet on him right now anyway.

I disagree, he is have an amazing season, but you're not getting an MVP for having your team barely over .500. Embiid and Giannis are having equally stunning seasons, although slightly less statistically significant and they have their teams in the running for top seed in the east.

There's a middle ground between the third seed and having your team barely over .500.

[Hussien Fatal]

Not to spoil the Embiid parade, but has anyone seen a significant decline in his defense due to the enhanced offensive load. The reason why I inquire

against the Heat, Ömer Yurtseven tied a CAREER-HIGH of 22 points (10-12) in 24 minutes of play

against the Wizards, Harrell had 18 points (6-9) in 21 minutes, and Thomas Bryant had 15 points (6-11) in 16 minutes

against the Magic, Mo Mamba had a CAREER HIGH 32 points (12-15) in 30 minutes (28 of that was in the first half on 7 threes and his previous career high was 22)

against the Spurs, Jakob Poeltl had 25 points on 11-16 shooting (career high is 27 points)

TONIGHT against the Pelicans-Willy Hernangómez had a CAREER-HIGH of 29 points on 11-15 shooting

This might not mean anything, but it is a quick glance at a some of his latest games and centers seem to be having more success. Even if he has dropped off some defensively, it seems as if it is worth it currently with how Philly is playing.

I watch every sixers game and sometimes I watch them twice. The reason why bigs are putting up decent numbers vs Embiid is because teams game plan is to attack him on defense to get him in foul trouble and to tire him out and make him work. Yes some of these scrub centers will go off but it back fires on other teams well because you know he’s not gonna let a scrub score more points than him not even close. But even still his DBPM is still top 10. And he still makes absolutely ridiculous defensive plays multiple times every game, like last night he had 42 and he 4 blocks and two of those blocks he swatted into the OZone.

[Ballerhogger]

Its amazing how long jokic been keeping up his production and minutes i wonder if he slows down in the 2nd half. He has g league squad with him right now. I dont think they can catch the mavs.

[Jazz9]

Jokic won't get it because his teammates are ass but he definitely deserves his second MVP

[DutchManDanFan]

Jokic gets 44.8% of his rebounds (6.2) as contested rebounds (#1 in entire NBA), Embiid gets 43.6% (4.7) as contested rebounds (#14), and Giannis gets 32.3% of his rebounds (3.6) as contested, good for #26 in the NBA. Maybe the big man on Milwaukee should focus more on getting in the paint and contesting rebounds instead of hoping they fall to him...

I see you try to be smart but fail miserably. My post was about team stats (Bucks no 2 in rebounding, Nuggets and 6ers in bottom 5) and you counter with individual stats.

If you combine them you can argue that going after every rebound (which leads to more contested boards - no 1 in the league), might not help your team become a better rebounding team.

[Cubbies2120]

Jokic gets 44.8% of his rebounds (6.2) as contested rebounds (#1 in entire NBA), Embiid gets 43.6% (4.7) as contested rebounds (#14), and Giannis gets 32.3% of his rebounds (3.6) as contested, good for #26 in the NBA. Maybe the big man on Milwaukee should focus more on getting in the paint and contesting rebounds instead of hoping they fall to him...

I see you try to be smart but fail miserably. My post was about team stats (Bucks no 2 in rebounding, Nuggets and 6ers in bottom 5) and you counter with individual stats.

If you combine them you can argue that going after every rebound (which leads to more contested boards - no 1 in the league), might not help your team become a better rebounding team.

I see you get big mad when someone calls you out. You literally said "Maybe he should focus on boxing out more", but the dude is fighting for rebounds. If he boxes out his opponent, then he needs to rely on his poor rebounding opponents to fight for them. Does this now make sense to you or do I need to make it even simpler?

If I'm Jokic, and I'm having to fight for almost half my rebounds to secure them, should I box my man out and instead depend on the guys we KNOW are poor rebounders to get them? And what do they do after they get them? Give it right back to me, the best playmaker in the game...

Your logic is nonexistent.

[eminence]

Jokic gets 44.8% of his rebounds (6.2) as contested rebounds (#1 in entire NBA), Embiid gets 43.6% (4.7) as contested rebounds (#14), and Giannis gets 32.3% of his rebounds (3.6) as contested, good for #26 in the NBA. Maybe the big man on Milwaukee should focus more on getting in the paint and contesting rebounds instead of hoping they fall to him...

I see you try to be smart but fail miserably. My post was about team stats (Bucks no 2 in rebounding, Nuggets and 6ers in bottom 5) and you counter with individual stats.

If you combine them you can argue that going after every rebound (which leads to more contested boards - no 1 in the league), might not help your team become a better rebounding team.

I see you get big mad when someone calls you out. You literally said "Maybe he should focus on boxing out more", but the dude is fighting for rebounds. If he boxes out his opponent, then he needs to rely on his poor rebounding opponents to fight for them. Does this now make sense to you or do I need to make it even simpler?

If I'm Jokic, and I'm having to fight for almost half my rebounds to secure them, should I box my man out and instead depend on the guys we KNOW are poor rebounders to get them? And what do they do after they get them? Give it right back to me, the best playmaker in the game...

Your logic is nonexistent.

Yeah, Jokic is a good rebounder and the Nuggets are a good rebounding team when he's on the court, they're just absolutely terrible when he's on the bench.

I do think it's a somewhat valid question with Embiid.

[DutchManDanFan]

I see you get big mad when someone calls you out. You literally said "Maybe he should focus on boxing out more", but the dude is fighting for rebounds. If he boxes out his opponent, then he needs to rely on his poor rebounding opponents to fight for them. Does this now make sense to you or do I need to make it even simpler?

If I'm Jokic, and I'm having to fight for almost half my rebounds to secure them, should I box my man out and instead depend on the guys we KNOW are poor rebounders to get them? And what do they do after they get them? Give it right back to me, the best playmaker in the game...

Your logic is nonexistent.

It's a team game. It might be better if every team member tries hard to get boards in stead of leaving them all for Jokic. Obviously this doesn't work very well for his team.

They can't be all bad in rebounding. Maybe it helps if he trusts his team members more and urge them to go for the boards harder.

[eyeatoma]

This is such a weird argument. These players are not Russell Westbrook.

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[DutchManDanFan]

This is such a weird argument. These players are not Russell Westbrook.

No they're not. But fact is their teams are bad in rebounding and there might be a correlation with players with amazing individual stats.

[Kurtz]

Read on Twitter

On Bet365 right now it's: 1. Giannis +260, 2. Curry +275, Embiid +275, 4. Joker +400, and no one else is close.

I think Curry will keep sliding and we have a 3 horse race. Health will be a huge factor. Embiid probably has the narrative edge right now as he's the only one of the 4 without an MVP.

[eyeatoma]

This is such a weird argument. These players are not Russell Westbrook.

No they're not. But fact is their teams are bad in rebounding and there might be a correlation with players with amazing individual stats.

Philly was one of the best rebounding teams in the league when Simmons was around. Embiid never averaged less than 10 rebounds. So that theory goes out the window for him.

[DCasey91]

Once again, Jokic asks Embiid to 'hold my beer', 28 and 21 (and 9)

The number of rebounds look great but it has a lot to do with bad rebounding from his team mates.

Denver top rebounders:
Nikola Jokic 13.8
Aaron Gordon 5.6
Will Barton 4.8
JaMychal Green 3.7

Jokic grabs 32% of his teams rebounds.

Phily top rebounders:
Joel Embiid 10.7
Andre Drummond 8.8
Tobias Harris 7.4
Tyrese Maxey 3.4
Seth Curry 3.4

Embiid grabs 25% of his teams rebounds.

Milwaukee top rebounders:
Giannis Antetokounmpo 11.3
Bobby Portis 9.5
Khris Middleton 5.7
Jrue Holiday 4.6
Pat Connaughton 4.5
Jordan Nwora 4.1

Giannis grabs 23% of his teams rebounds.

Bucks are 2nd in rebounding, Nuggets 26th, 6ers 30th.
Top 4 in rebouding are Memphis, Mil, GSW and Utah. Suns are 7th. You could argue these are the best teams in the league.
Bucks were a great rebounding team with Brook Lopez, who only averages 5 boards per game.

Maybe the centers of Denver and Phily should focus more on boxing out and make sure their team mates get more (easy) boards in stead of grabbing as much as possible them selves to increase their own PER and MVP chances...

This is a great point though I’d note that Denver has considerably more effective rebounding than Philly in addition to Jokic playing a bigger rebounding role.

Not looking to say that Embiid can’t be MVP because he’s a strong candidate if he just stays healthy.


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Just quickly as a Sixers fan, Embiid has never been a great rebounder in fact size for size Ben and Harris pips him (Ben’s our best screener and that’s not close either fwiw). He’s absolutely huge duh as the offset but Jokic’s skill prowess as a big is unmatched I can’t think of a big in history as skillful as him defense aside.

[Cubbies2120]

This is such a weird argument. These players are not Russell Westbrook.

No they're not. But fact is their teams are bad in rebounding and there might be a correlation with players with amazing individual stats.

I would agree IF Embiid and Jokic were getting uncontested boards at the rate Giannis does, but both of them are having to battle for boards significantly more. Perhaps if their teammates boxed out, they'd be able to let rebounds fall into their laps, and then I'd agree. But its either 1. They go up for them, or 2. The other team gets the board.

[eyeatoma]

The number of rebounds look great but it has a lot to do with bad rebounding from his team mates.

Denver top rebounders:
Nikola Jokic 13.8
Aaron Gordon 5.6
Will Barton 4.8
JaMychal Green 3.7

Jokic grabs 32% of his teams rebounds.

Phily top rebounders:
Joel Embiid 10.7
Andre Drummond 8.8
Tobias Harris 7.4
Tyrese Maxey 3.4
Seth Curry 3.4

Embiid grabs 25% of his teams rebounds.

Milwaukee top rebounders:
Giannis Antetokounmpo 11.3
Bobby Portis 9.5
Khris Middleton 5.7
Jrue Holiday 4.6
Pat Connaughton 4.5
Jordan Nwora 4.1

Giannis grabs 23% of his teams rebounds.

Bucks are 2nd in rebounding, Nuggets 26th, 6ers 30th.
Top 4 in rebouding are Memphis, Mil, GSW and Utah. Suns are 7th. You could argue these are the best teams in the league.
Bucks were a great rebounding team with Brook Lopez, who only averages 5 boards per game.

Maybe the centers of Denver and Phily should focus more on boxing out and make sure their team mates get more (easy) boards in stead of grabbing as much as possible them selves to increase their own PER and MVP chances...

This is a great point though I’d note that Denver has considerably more effective rebounding than Philly in addition to Jokic playing a bigger rebounding role.

Not looking to say that Embiid can’t be MVP because he’s a strong candidate if he just stays healthy.


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Just quickly as a Sixers fan, Embiid has never been a great rebounder in fact size for size Ben and Harris pips him (Ben’s our best screener and that’s not close either fwiw). He’s absolutely huge duh as the offset but Jokic’s skill prowess as a big is unmatched I can’t think of a big in history as skillful as him defense aside.

Disagree on him never being a great rebounder. He projected as an elite rebounder in college. He averaged 7.8 boards in his rookie year on less than 26 minutes.

Dude averaged 13.6 boards a few years ago (2018-19), when Simmons and Butler was there and Tobi was there. LOL all of them average 8 boards a game. He is an elite rebounder, but like his defense he can't just do it every time because of his massive usage and offensive role.

Sorry Butler averaged 5.3. My point still stands though.

[DCasey91]

This is a great point though I’d note that Denver has considerably more effective rebounding than Philly in addition to Jokic playing a bigger rebounding role.

Not looking to say that Embiid can’t be MVP because he’s a strong candidate if he just stays healthy.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Just quickly as a Sixers fan, Embiid has never been a great rebounder in fact size for size Ben and Harris pips him (Ben’s our best screener and that’s not close either fwiw). He’s absolutely huge duh as the offset but Jokic’s skill prowess as a big is unmatched I can’t think of a big in history as skillful as him defense aside.

Disagree on him never being a great rebounder. He projected as an elite rebounder in college. He averaged 7.8 boards in his rookie year on less than 26 minutes.

Dude averaged 13.6 boards a few years ago (2018-19), when Simmons and Butler was there and Tobi was there. LOL all of them average 8 boards a game. He is an elite rebounder, but like his defense he can't just do it every time because of his massive usage and offensive role.

Sorry Butler averaged 5.3. My point still stands though.

I would term great as being someone like Barkley. I dunno I always thought size wise both Ben and Harris seemed to me like better rebounders. Remember Embiid is massive. He stills does the hands down thing on second rebuys for opponents scoring opportunities off rim outs which I don’t like still to this day just leave the hands up big fella.

I don’t take much into raw accumulation though Ben has nice ORB’s considering the space he covers per game.

Dude I’ve watched every single game he’s my favorite player I know he can’t do it all. I’m more rapt with his passing and vision that’s coming along.