Political Roundtable Part XXX

[Wizardspride]

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[Pointgod]

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I **** told you this would happen. Trust Republicans at your peril. The party is broken from top the bottom.

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[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

So in your introduction to experimental methodology class the professor might ask you what are the pros and cons of simplified models.

This is the answer of the arrogant white kid who thinks he knows everything but is actually full of crap.

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[closg00]

Justice Breyer is retiring, WHOOT!

[Wizardspride]

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[Zonkerbl]

do it fast man

[Zonkerbl]

GOP shows their true Nazi colors

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[Pointgod]

do it fast man

Only Manchin and Cinema could **** this up. It’s absolutely insane that Trump got 3 nominations on the court. Expanding the numbers in the Senate is more important than retaining the house. Imagine being able to replace both Thomas and Alito, those geezers need to step down

[doclinkin]

Spoiler:

Doc, I'll start by saying there's no easy answer. There's also no answer that would have likely prevented a significant loss of life.

There is. Vaccines. They work. If we had them early on we could have prevented the spread and mutation of the disease.

I'm also not anti-vaccine. But I'm confident that not enough research has been done with MRNA technology and its impact on the human body. (I won't even get into that trash ass J&J shot). As regular boosters have become a part of regime, i feel even less comfortable with the vax option. There is no long term study showing the impact of continued boosters on our bodies. Its as if were going along with the 'best' choice at the moment with zero consideration to what the long term implications could be... especially since we've learned its a leaky vax. As we should know, not all vaccines are created equal. Some are much better than others. A vaccine that doesn't protect you from infection and whose effectiveness wains after a few months is not an ideal vax and can create more problems than it's worth.

We can refer to the other thread but even post-Delta in the Omicron era, the vaccines deter infection. Leaky or no. In the Denmark study cited, vaccinated members in the same household as an infected person are only ~30% likely to catch the virus. 70% effective is still a strong number. This is up from the Delta variant where the vaccines were 80% likely to prevent infection, and up from the original strain for which it was developed (as much as 96% protection). But that is significantly better than say, the Flu vaccine which is only 40-60% effective. This is because influenza has become endemic, multiplies readily, and each year brings a new strain. Every year vulnerable people require a new flu shot. The difference is that because the flu has been around for millenia antibodies have developed in populations that make people flu resistant, and also that vulnerable people in history who contracted the flu already died off, their genes that made them vulnerable did not pass on.

The hope is still that if we can slow the growth of this virus science can stay ahead of it, and we won't have to have mass die-offs to develop herd immunity. If we had a vaccine early on that slowed the spread of the virus to 30% of its speed across populations (and we were able to deliver it to India and South Africa) we would not have had an Omicron variant.

If we had a vaccine that was even 70% effective at the start of this epidemic, 560,000 Americans would still be alive.

Does the vaccine reduce serious illness? It appears so. Did a flu shot help the flu? Yes. Did we mandate flu shots and fire people from their jobs for not taking a flu shot? No.

Hospitals and Nursing Homes require flu vaccinations. Schools require MMR shots before kids are allowed to enroll. Yes, we do. We had effectively defeated measles until Facebook posts allowed anti-vaxx misinformation to spread.

Does a healthy diet significantly reduce the chance of illness? Yes. Do we mandate people to eat healthy to reduce the burden of care for doctors, nurses, hospitals and insurance companies? No.

Totally off the point. You cannot pass obesity to 7 people. If you could contract morbid obesity by breathing the same air in an elevator as a big boy then hell yes we would see vaccines and mandates for anti-fat vaxx.

There's never an easy answer for everything but the current response screams overreach from governments across the world.

How is it overreach to form a public policy to prevent mass death?

800,000 Americans dead. That is over 13 Viet Nam Memorial walls worth of dead Americans. In one year killing more Americans than 30 years of the AIDS epidemic. It's not enough to say 'yeah that's bad, but hey people die'. We have no natural immunity to this thing, so it spreads like wildfire. There is no firewall to slow it down. EXCEPT vaccines or mass death. The very purpose of government in the first place is to protect people, even against their own choices. Dangerous drugs are illegal. Medicines are controlled. People are crying that these vaccines haven't been tested enough, in part because we are used to them being tested for up to 10 years before they are sent to market. And if not they are illegal.

This is a case where it is overwhelmingly in the public good NOT to delay the use of an effective treatment. This is a case where Government very sensibly has flexed in order to protect the largest number of people.

We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union, establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general Welfare

Health and Welfare. Defense. Insuring Domestic peace. Ensuring that more Americans don't die and that we can safely open society (and our economy). We have Fire Marshall codes determining how many people can safely stand in one place. We have banned smoking indoors. Children cannot buy guns. And yes if you want to put your kid in public school they have to be vaccinated against the most virulent diseases.

It is reasonable to be hesitant and skeptical. It is fair to be concerned about your individual personal liberty. Marijuana should be legalized at a federal level. Prostitution should be legalized taxed and regulated to ensure sex workers have access to regular health care, as it is in Amsterdam. The government should not force women to keep an embryo in her body. The intelligence agencies should not be in our personal lives.

But absolutely government should have a policy to deal with the cataclysmic overgrowth of a newly mutated virus. The options are: lockdowns, mass death, or science. Doubtless there will be better science as we go, but so far to me the development of these vaccines in that short of a period of time is a f****ing miracle. I'm proud as hell of our scientific community, even if, yeah, huge pharmaceutical corporations stand to benefit from their work. They did remarkably good work with zero time to do it.

You will not change my mind and I'm not going to change yours. That time has long since past my friend. We're locked into these roles. Your vaxxed and likely boostered and I've already risked family, friends, reputation and my way of life on this issue but with no fear of losing any of it. I've had enough arguments and getting talked down to by those who simply have no business doing so to be over the discussions completely, not sure why i drug myself into this. Maybe its my small way lashing out at those i know for being isolated and the continued encouragement of such policies to inflict more limitations. I've bit my tongue tho for the most part but its really tough. Especially from those I felt a connection with on some level.

Call me selfish, self absorbed. Call me a fool or idiot or someone not deserving of medical care. Retreat to person of moral authority, i get that alot. It gets a chuckle from me now. That's what we've been told to do. Make those unvaxxed idiots on the right the scapegoat because we need to blame something even though I'm one of many african-americans who remain 'vaccine hesitant' and I most adsuredly do not lean right wing. I realize my reasoning won't make sense to you. My conclusion will likely have few co-signers. My decision is just what resonates with me. I stand in what I believe in, not what anyone else tells me I should believe. I've listened but after 2 years I have enough confidence and information to make a reasoned decision to say the continued vaccine & booster regimen is riskier longterm than any of the current strains of covid for a person like myself with no comorbidities. Obviously that's not everyone. If i had comorbidities or didn't intermittent fast daily, didn't have a low carb, 0 sugar diet and wasn't in terrific shape I might weigh the risk differently.

And yes, i don't trust the science. Doesn't mean I never have or don't see the value. I just don't trust eager, greedy biomedical companies to get it right when rushed. This is coming from someone who has worked from all healthcare viewpoints. Insurers, biomedical firms, patient case management and end care and now the medical research/grants management space. Competency is a rare trait even among elite thinkers. Good intentions, bad results is a common theme. The Novavax option looks intriguing but even then I don't trust them to get it right, right away.

Backing up to this. Hm. I don't see anything my post talking down to anyone. I appreciate how frustrating it is to have a realistic and fair viewpoint and feel ostracized for it.

Realistic and fair: we have drug regulations and testing for a reason. In any new medicine/procedure etc you have to take into account the law of unintended consequences. Long term effects are unknown and mass application of any new medical tech is sure to have negative consequences for some part of the population who reacts poorly to it. People who might never have caught covid will be exposed to it even in weakened form, injected into their bodies. Some of them will bear negative effects from this exposure. Yes the science suggests that catching COVID is more likely to cause problems than the vaccine, but, there is a 100% chance of exposure to something you inject into your body, where you might not have gotten COVID in the first place.

Given the above: Healthy persons who work hard to maintain that health and are cautious about what they put in their bodies in the first place should not feel forced into effectively a mass medical trial that has shown declining effectiveness in the primary selling point (ie, that it prevents the spread of the infection, therefor one persons failure to vaccinate threatens multiple others).

And of course by extrapolation: if we don't resist this, if precedent is set for sweeping edicts, then what prevents others from doing the same when a different party is in power, on a different issue?
...

All reasonable concerns from individual perspective. Or from the perspective of a protective parent.

From a Governmental standpoint, what is the responsible policy that protects both individual rights and the population as a whole?

On the one hand we have proof that the vaccines save lives. On a massive scale.
On the other hand the argument against vaccines given to otherwise healthy people is:
"We don't know what long term effect they might have".
Death vs We don't know.

It is easy enough to say, individually, "I don't have any answers but I know what I don't want".
But we have lost close to a million Americans (875,000 people dead and counting).
Seems to me any effective measure taken to prevent mass death is not a government overreach.
COVID is the #3 killer in the US, behind Heart Disease and Cancer. Something that didn't exist 3 years ago is killing millions.
So. If not mass vaccinations, then what? What is the responsible Government position to protect the greatest number of people?

It's not a gotcha question. You, nate, whomever, none of you is crazy or idiots or whatever monkeydung has been lobbed at you. I'm on this board because it is packed with smart well informed and thoughtful people. I care less about following the orthodoxy of mainstream opinion. And like I said my inclination is generally, hell, I don't even take Tylenol. I am always willing to listen to a counterargument. Or alternative plan. But so far I don't see a workable alternate plan.

The one thing I would say though vs "we don't know". Long-term, yeah of course we have no xxxxing idea what it might do. But in the short term, we have administered ~10 Billion COVID vaxx shots worldwide. Over 52% of the world's population has gotten 2 doses. That is a f.vckton of shots given. If we call it experimental medicine, this has been the largest mass medical trial in the history of the world. And so far any negative side effects are rare, treatable, and far far far less common than deaths by COVID.

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

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So soon?

Only 28 years on the job???

I’m sure he’s not 85 years old yet. But I’m not sure that he isn’t 80.

What is the rationale for lifetime appointments?

[Chocolate City Jordanaire]

Good Lord, that man is 83 years old!?

[Benjammin]

GOP shows their true Nazi colors

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Godwin's law ftw..

Sent from my motorola edge plus using RealGM mobile app

[Zonkerbl]

Godwin's law doesn't apply in discussions about actual Nazis.

[Zonkerbl]

BTW if you haven't you should all read Maus.

[Zonkerbl]

"OMG asking me to wear a mask is like the Holocaust" - Godwin's law applies
"OMG why are you Nazis banning books about the Holocaust" - does not apply

[Benjammin]

"OMG asking me to wear a mask is like the Holocaust" - Godwin's law applies
"OMG why are you Nazis banning books about the Holocaust" - does not apply

Yeah, no. Banning this important book is stupid. It's wrong. Removing it from the curriculum is terrible. People who claim that being asked to wear a mask is like the Holocaust are disgusting and vile. Neither situation ultimately makes the case for painting people as Nazis. Believe it or not, there are other words and descriptions before you go there.

Now if we could just get progressives on colleges to stop being antisemitic that would be another positive step. https://www.cnn.com/2021/06/30/us/american-anti-semitism-students-soh/index.html
https://www.forbes.com/sites/evangerstmann/2021/09/24/are-jewish-students-feeling-forced-to-hide-their-identity-on-campus/?sh=210fda9a78e8
https://www.washingtonpost.com/outlook/2021/10/27/antisemitism-left-rising/
https://tuftsdaily.com/opinion/2021/05/06/the-hidden-antisemitism-plaguing-college-campuses/

I could add dozens more links if that would be helpful for you.

[pancakes3]

anti-israel != anti-semitic

just like being anti-Saudi != anti-Arab

hth

[Benjammin]

anti-israel != anti-semitic

just like being anti-Saudi != anti-Arab

hth

Sure. That comparison makes perfect sense. Hilarious though.

[Zonkerbl]

I will call you a Nazi if you are a Nazi.

I will also defend my right to criticize the fascist secular regime in Israel to the death. I was against apartheid in the 90s in South Africa and I'm against it in Israel.