GT: Nets @ Timberwolves 1/23/22 8:00pm (YES Network)

[Prokorov]

All the chatter is about Philly, but you can't help but wonder if there's a dark horse team out there. For example, the Spurs are probably just a White or Murray trade away from having enough cap space. It's a very well run organization, with no state income tax, great weather & potentially amenable to bringing in D'Antoni next year. Also, the path to the top is seemingly easier out west now.

Yeah, im not worried at all about losing him to Philly without getting decent compensation in a sign and trade. Philly would need to dump Harris/Simmons/Green and take back 0 salary to be able to sign Harden. And there are not many landing spots to take on those salary without having to match money.

I can see Harden saying "f a title" and going somewhere. But i dont see it with the spurs/popvich. he is going to want a coach who lets him do whatever he wants. Houston/OKC seem like non-starters. The knicks im sure he wants no part of. Maybe the Grizzlies can clear the cap.

For me its:

1) Harden is back
2) Harden to Philly for a palatable return

If we win a title, he is back or we won a title so i dont care as much what happens next. If we dont win a title, its unlikely we do without change and getting a young simmons to pivot + future proof us is a softer landing then other options.

Pop is expected to retire this year or next. I don't know that they have settled on a replacement yet, but if they opted for D'Antoni (doubtful), it could give them a leg up. My guess is the Spurs will look for a much younger coach for the potential long-term stability.

I can see it if pop is out the door.

other hurdles is murray hates hardem, but that could be solved for.

[Suwanee]

OR

Philly can just send Simmons, Thybule, a pick, and one of curry or Green to the nets, retain Maxey and Harris and get Harden.

It is 100% cheaper, easier path to sign and trade for Harden vs. try and clear the space to sign harden. And you run a HUGE risk that Marks/KD convice Harden to stay in the time it takes for you to work 3-4 trades with 5-6 teams to dump that salary

Of course S&T is always the easier path, but it may not be cheaper if you're asking for more than they're willing to give up. Harden and his new team aren't stupid. If the S&T depletes their new roster, they can always go take the more difficult path. And then what do we have left? Nothing.

[TheNetsFan]

OR

Philly can just send Simmons, Thybule, a pick, and one of curry or Green to the nets, retain Maxey and Harris and get Harden.

It is 100% cheaper, easier path to sign and trade for Harden vs. try and clear the space to sign harden. And you run a HUGE risk that Marks/KD convice Harden to stay in the time it takes for you to work 3-4 trades with 5-6 teams to dump that salary

Of course S&T is always the easier path, but it may not be cheaper if you're asking for more than they're willing to give up. Harden and his new team aren't stupid. If the S&T depletes their new roster, they can always go take the more difficult path. And then what do we have left? Nothing.

A sign & trade hard caps them. CBS had a write up on the cap implications. It wasn't pretty. Assuming they only traded Simmons & non-guaranteed deals (which I don't think would even be legal) they're be left with about $8mil under the hard cap to fill a minimum of 6 spots.

Their best bets are either trade for Harden at the deadline or liquidate for cap space. The latter likely requires that they dump Harris for expirings now, but that would not go over well. They'd essentially be punting on this year's playoff competitiveness.

[GYK]

Ok why are you saying those had to be the guys signed? They weren’t even FA? Are you saying there were no FA who were career shooters with wing size that could move laterally? Are you going with the ONLY option was literally multiple non shooters? You don’t think that was a purposeful choice not the only option available?

I was pointing out those guys who shoot/defend dont go for the minimum. And we only had the minimum. and YES there were very few if any options for 3&D free agents who could be had at the minimum. And EVERY over the cap contender is competing for those 2 or 3 guys.

Again you’re going with those are the only guys you could’ve went for and even if that was true who cares you need to fulfill those roles. By any means. You don’t bring in anything other then what’s needed.

There is a salary cap. you cant bring in the guys if the salary isnt there. The options we had were singing and drafting. We drafted one. We signed 1 or 2 who didnt pan out (Carter/Milsap) the options to sign where extremely limited/non exsistant. again, let me know who signed for the minimum who was a 3&D guy you would have liked to get.

Idk who we should get but ok I’ll play.
Turner for Joe/Nic

Your solution to fixing "threes and defense" is to trade our best shooter and best defender?

Bruce/Carter combined with the 2nds we have should net a decent player on the market.

Carter has a no trade and is on a 1 year deal, so he would be a rental. Carter is having a bad year. We only have 1 second to trade. We can only take back 8-9 million in salary in a deal trading those two. Who exactly do you expect to get for a rental of browm, a second rounder in the 50s, and carter who is playing awful?

Cam for Amir Coffey or Grant Williams.

The Celtics need three point shooting. they arent trading a stretch big for a rookie who doesnt shoot threes. They also already dont have enough minutes to play their 3 rookies (Neismith, Langford, Pritchard) who do shoot threes.

I would also be willing to move Sharpe.

Again, what return to expect to get on a 6'9" center who doesnt shoot threes, has the highest rate of being blocked in the NBA and who isnt a great shot blocker himself?

Even then I would still use the TPE’s and scour the buyout market.

TPE requires releasing 1 player (2 if you want Kessler edwards on the playoff roster) and paying 3X in taxes. Tsai would do that, but only for someone who makes a difference.

Buyout market can and will happen. again requires releasing multiple players. We can sign buyout players at the moment, so hard to criticize marks for not signing them.

Again we aren’t looking for core players. We’re not even looking for catalyst players(tho I absolutely thing Joe should be a defensive core piece besides making it a 2way core. It would define what roles are needed for future seasons. We need four true 36mpg players). We are looking for simple fit players. Same as Harden Rockets teams. It wasn’t money it was knowing the optimal playstyle for players.

I know, what you are not hearing, is that even for those non core/non catalyst players, the pool we have to choose from is almost 0 and our assets to trade for what is available is almost 0.

yes would absolutely move that best defender and shooter for Turner. Then focus on finding shooting from athletic wings. There’s plenty of guys that fulfill that role and on a team of 3 star perimeter players/6th man guard we aren’t asking a lot of production nor minutes so their talent level isn’t necessarily needed to be elite.
Or reverse the best 3&D wings and bring in the rebounding centers of the league like the Suns did.

Here’s the thing. You don’t want to move anyone. You like them. You also see them having no value, don’t know why you like them. You think the off-season was great, no roles were fulfilled but likable players from last season and a crop of rookies.
I just don’t see any GM walking into a contender season with a roster they didn’t believe 110% in. We’ve seen multiple cap top heavy teams. This isn’t new. New for Brooklyn. He did bad bruh. He can fix it and it will cost guys you like. Old guys you planned on regressed and young guys didn’t develop but they all were niche pickups to start. Let that go. We aren’t gonna make the SG roll man a thing. Nic guarding the perimeter for a tiny bit is cute, done with. Relying on a slew of old centers for their skill, a plus never apart of the gameplan.

[Prokorov]

OR

Philly can just send Simmons, Thybule, a pick, and one of curry or Green to the nets, retain Maxey and Harris and get Harden.

It is 100% cheaper, easier path to sign and trade for Harden vs. try and clear the space to sign harden. And you run a HUGE risk that Marks/KD convice Harden to stay in the time it takes for you to work 3-4 trades with 5-6 teams to dump that salary

Of course S&T is always the easier path, but it may not be cheaper if you're asking for more than they're willing to give up. Harden and his new team aren't stupid. If the S&T depletes their new roster, they can always go take the more difficult path. And then what do we have left? Nothing.

I dont see how the more difficult path is cheaper though. Lets explore that path again:

-Need to trade Harris, take back 0 in salary
-Need to trade Simmons, take back 0 in salary
-Need to trade Green, take back 0 in salary

Harris: Only team who can absorb Harris and send back 0 salary is the spurs. They project to have 41M in cap space. They would need to choose taking Harris + Philly assets over using the space to try and sign a big name free agent (Ayton, Bridges, Beal) Or sign multiple tier 2 free agents (Covington, Sexton, DiVincenzo, etc...). They would also need to prefer Harris + Assets over what other teams looking to clear cap would offer them.

Long story short, Even If spurs view Harris as closer to a nuetral then negative contract, the sixers will need to pay to dump him. Going Rate for Harris salary in dump is 1-2 picks with protection and b or c level young player. My guess is it would look something like:

Harris <--> Thybule, '23 protected 1st, '24 Pick swap.

Green Green they can likely just give away. someone can give them a fake/top55 protected 2nd rounder or just absorb him with a TPE. Plenty of teams have TPEs in that range. At most they would need to give a pair of seconds to move him.

Simmons With the spurs taking Harris, 0 teams have the cap to absorb simmons and not send back salary. there are 4-5 teams who could get there by clearing 10-14 million in salary by renouncing good players or paying to dump some of their own guys, but none of them are close enough where it wont take something on their end. That means a 3 team deal where philly send Simmons to say, The Grizzlies. Philly then has to pay that third team to take the grizz salary off their hand to create cap room.

This wont cost a ton, and the grizz may chip in a bit, but it wouldnt be free. Maybe Shake milton and a pick swap? Lets say its:

Simmons to Grizz
Milton/swap to 3rd team
Grizz salary to third team

The total cost of that is:

Simmons, Harris, Thybule, Milton, 1 1st-rounder, and 2 1st round pick swaps. It requires 3 trades and 4 other teams.

And that is like best case for philly. If the spurs prefer to chase free agents, or take a better salary dump, philly is screwed and will need to pay a ton to dump harris to a team that needs to create cap space just to take him on fully.

[Prokorov]

OR

Philly can just send Simmons, Thybule, a pick, and one of curry or Green to the nets, retain Maxey and Harris and get Harden.

It is 100% cheaper, easier path to sign and trade for Harden vs. try and clear the space to sign harden. And you run a HUGE risk that Marks/KD convice Harden to stay in the time it takes for you to work 3-4 trades with 5-6 teams to dump that salary

Of course S&T is always the easier path, but it may not be cheaper if you're asking for more than they're willing to give up. Harden and his new team aren't stupid. If the S&T depletes their new roster, they can always go take the more difficult path. And then what do we have left? Nothing.

A sign & trade hard caps them. CBS had a write up on the cap implications. It wasn't pretty. Assuming they only traded Simmons & non-guaranteed deals (which I don't think would even be legal) they're be left with about $8mil under the hard cap to fill a minimum of 6 spots.

Their best bets are either trade for Harden at the deadline or liquidate for cap space. The latter likely requires that they dump Harris for expirings now, but that would not go over well. They'd essentially be punting on this year's playoff competitiveness.

Liquidating for cap space doesnt make sense for them. Too much risk:

1) As you mentioned they punt on this year for the HOPE Harden would sign there. That is at best a 50/50 proposition.
2) They would need to give up a bunch of assets and key role guys to dump and hope teams with cap space dont prefer to use it in free agency

They basically need to punt this year, HOPE Harden choses to sign there and HOPE the spurs prefer simmons to available free agents.

The Hard cap restricts them, but Honestly its their best bet to retain talent around Harden/Embiid. if they need to bring in 4 or 5 vet min guys so be it.

[Prokorov]

yes would absolutely move that best defender and shooter for Turner. Then focus on finding shooting from athletic wings. There’s plenty of guys that fulfill that role and on a team of 3 star perimeter players/6th man guard we aren’t asking a lot of production nor minutes so their talent level isn’t necessarily needed to be elite.
Or reverse the best 3&D wings and bring in the rebounding centers of the league like the Suns did.

Who are these athletic shooters you claim are available, and how do we get them once we deal Joe/Claxton?

Why would you make that deal? It makes us worse shooting the ball and probably worse defensively (as good as a shotblocker as turner is, he is overally not great defensively. He is solid defender at PF, but average to poor defending as a center. and he wouldnt play PF here.

Here’s the thing. You don’t want to move anyone. You like them. You also see them having no value, don’t know why you like them.

This is very far from true. I would trade Harris and/or Claxton with 0 hesitation. I started a trade thread where i propose deals trading them As far as value goes, there are hurdles for both:

Claxton: Would be a rental as he is a pending free agent. He has struggled to stay on the floor. Teams are not going to give up much to rent a guy who may not play a ton for them during that 3 month rental. They then need to pay 8-11 million annually to retain him at years end.

Harris: Has more value then Claxton and more importantly his salary allows you to take back/match more in return. Harris is currently injured, getting a 2nd opinion and has no timetable for a return. He is owed 3/60 on his deal. being injured moves that from market value to somewhat risky. Even at full value, Harris isnt landing you an all-star. I suggested moving him for Marcus Smart or Eric Gordon. Those types are likely plausible. Turner you may be able to get as well, but i Honestly dont see the fit. you dont get wing defense, you dont get center defense, and you downgrade at shooting.

You think the off-season was great, no roles were fulfilled but likable players from last season and a crop of rookies.
I just don’t see any GM walking into a contender season with a roster they didn’t believe 110% in.

We did have a great offseason. we got one of the leagues best 6th man in mills for well below his value. And we really needed a 6th man and guy who could get buckets if one of our stars went down in the playoffs again.

We added Guard Defenders we desperately lacked last year in Bembry and Carter. Guys like Colin Sexton were dropping 40 on us. We needed a stopper and athlete there. Bembry was a perfect fit.

We needed to replace Green, and get more durable backing up KD. Milsap is about as close to a clone of jeff green as you could get and Johnson again adds defense/toughness we lacked.

We added rebounding with Sharpe/LMA coming back. Rebounding was an issue, even if it is not a priority. We also got Blake back when he could have signed for more money elsewhere.

We had the small MLE and vet minimum deals. Thats it. We did much better then anyone could have expected.

Your argument of our offseason holds 0 water until you can produce names of better options who signed for the minimum.

We’ve seen multiple cap top heavy teams. This isn’t new. New for Brooklyn. He did bad bruh. He can fix it and it will cost guys you like. Old guys you planned on regressed and young guys didn’t develop but they all were niche pickups to start. Let that go. We aren’t gonna make the SG roll man a thing. Nic guarding the perimeter for a tiny bit is cute, done with. Relying on a slew of old centers for their skill, a plus never apart of the gameplan.

Again, your not getting 3&D guys or solid shooting role players for the minimum. Marks had an elite offseason given what he had to work with. it could have been 100 times worse.

[Suwanee]

OR

Philly can just send Simmons, Thybule, a pick, and one of curry or Green to the nets, retain Maxey and Harris and get Harden.

It is 100% cheaper, easier path to sign and trade for Harden vs. try and clear the space to sign harden. And you run a HUGE risk that Marks/KD convice Harden to stay in the time it takes for you to work 3-4 trades with 5-6 teams to dump that salary

Of course S&T is always the easier path, but it may not be cheaper if you're asking for more than they're willing to give up. Harden and his new team aren't stupid. If the S&T depletes their new roster, they can always go take the more difficult path. And then what do we have left? Nothing.

I dont see how the more difficult path is cheaper though. Lets explore that path again:

-Need to trade Harris, take back 0 in salary
-Need to trade Simmons, take back 0 in salary
-Need to trade Green, take back 0 in salary

Harris: Only team who can absorb Harris and send back 0 salary is the spurs. They project to have 41M in cap space. They would need to choose taking Harris + Philly assets over using the space to try and sign a big name free agent (Ayton, Bridges, Beal) Or sign multiple tier 2 free agents (Covington, Sexton, DiVincenzo, etc...). They would also need to prefer Harris + Assets over what other teams looking to clear cap would offer them.

Long story short, Even If spurs view Harris as closer to a nuetral then negative contract, the sixers will need to pay to dump him. Going Rate for Harris salary in dump is 1-2 picks with protection and b or c level young player. My guess is it would look something like:

Harris <--> Thybule, '23 protected 1st, '24 Pick swap.

Green Green they can likely just give away. someone can give them a fake/top55 protected 2nd rounder or just absorb him with a TPE. Plenty of teams have TPEs in that range. At most they would need to give a pair of seconds to move him.

Simmons With the spurs taking Harris, 0 teams have the cap to absorb simmons and not send back salary. there are 4-5 teams who could get there by clearing 10-14 million in salary by renouncing good players or paying to dump some of their own guys, but none of them are close enough where it wont take something on their end. That means a 3 team deal where philly send Simmons to say, The Grizzlies. Philly then has to pay that third team to take the grizz salary off their hand to create cap room.

This wont cost a ton, and the grizz may chip in a bit, but it wouldnt be free. Maybe Shake milton and a pick swap? Lets say its:

Simmons to Grizz
Milton/swap to 3rd team
Grizz salary to third team

The total cost of that is:

Simmons, Harris, Thybule, Milton, 1 1st-rounder, and 2 1st round pick swaps. It requires 3 trades and 4 other teams.

And that is like best case for philly. If the spurs prefer to chase free agents, or take a better salary dump, philly is screwed and will need to pay a ton to dump harris to a team that needs to create cap space just to take him on fully.

1) You're seriously underrating Tobias Harris. The going rate you listed to dump salary is for overpaid players that SUCK. Tobias is still putting up 18.6/7.5/3.8, and is only 29 year old. One can argue he isn't in him prime years yet and still has room to grow. I really doubt it'll take Thybulle + 1FRP + 1FRP swap to dump his salary.

2) Again you've conveniently left out the potential return for Simmons. For all his faults, Simmons is still an All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defensive-First-Teamer. He's coveted. Kings can't take Simmons' contract out right. But they can shed additional salary to a 3rd team. The incentive to said team can actually come from Kings. For example, instead of Haliburton and 2FRPs to Philly, one of the FRPs can go to the 3rd team. Philly can still get Haliburton + FRP

Compared to a straight S&T, they get to shed Harris's salary, get a young stud on rookie scale salary for multiple years, AND pick/picks. So yeah, more complicated? Sure. But cheaper.

[Suwanee]

I mean we're talking about Simmons + fillers for James Freaking Harden here. But if they trade Simmons to another team, you're not expecting anything of value in return? How does that make sense?

[Prokorov]

1) You're seriously underrating Tobias Harris. The going rate you listed to dump salary is for overpaid players that SUCK. Tobias is still putting up 18.6/7.5/3.8, and is only 29 year old. One can argue he isn't in him prime years yet and still has room to grow. I really doubt it'll take Thybulle + 1FRP + 1FRP swap to dump his salary.

No one is underrating Harris. He is a fringe all-star. He is overpaid a bit but its not like we are talking John Wall. That said, you still need to pay to dump him. two firsts for sure. or like i said, a solid role guy, 1st and pick swap.

What really squeezes philly here is less the quality of Harris and more the premium on cap space. There are just no teams with space. And to trade Harris you are asking teams to throw away the ability to be players in free agency to take on Harris. These are also rebuilding teams. They have picks. Harris isnt old but they want all-stars or young up and coming talent.

You asking the spurs to pass on guys like Ayton in free agency to take on Harris for little/free, there is no way. And lets say one of the 4 teams who can get to the salary needed like Harris, those teams need to pay to dump 12-14 million. No one is paying to dump that and take on Harris and give you cap space for free. So philly needs to send assets to that third team.

Thybule/1st/1st swap would actually be getting off cheap. especially since the picks project to mid 20s and not conveying.

2) Again you've conveniently left out the potential return for Simmons. For all his faults, Simmons is still an All-Star, All-NBA, All-Defensive-First-Teamer. He's coveted. Kings can't take Simmons' contract out right. But they can shed additional salary to a 3rd team. The incentive to said team can actually come from Kings. For example, instead of Haliburton and 2FRPs to Philly, one of the FRPs can go to the 3rd team. Philly can still get Haliburton + FRP

And Again, you ignore that PHILLY CAN NOT TAKE BACK SALARY FOR SIMMONS!

They need to take back 0 salary or they cant sign Harden.

Compared to a straight S&T, they get to shed Harris's salary, get a young stud on rookie scale salary for multiple years, AND pick/picks. So yeah, more complicated? Sure. But cheaper.

Your scenario does not clear enough cap. and results in no harden

[Prokorov]

I mean we're talking about Simmons + fillers for James Freaking Harden here. But if they trade Simmons to another team, you're not expecting anything of value in return? How does that make sense?

Because Philly cant take back salary.

Hard to get value for simmons when you cant take back salary for him. They need to dump 100% of Harris AND Simmons. even doing that they are still 8 million short and need to dump Green or a combo of 3 lower salary guys.

They can take back picks, but those picks would need to go to a 3rd team who takes the salary required to allow team 2 to absorb simmons.

Only 1 team can absorb simmons or harris. The rest all need to shave 12-20 million. They will need to pay to shave that money. Which complicates things.

And if the spurs decide to either
A) sign a free agent (Ayton rumored)
B) Take on someone elses salary dump that comes with more assets
C) sign and trade for a better player then Harris

Philly is screwed.

[Suwanee]

I mean we're talking about Simmons + fillers for James Freaking Harden here. But if they trade Simmons to another team, you're not expecting anything of value in return? How does that make sense?

Because Philly cant take back salary.

They CAN. They just need to shed more salaries like you said. And a young budding star is totally worth the effort.

[NetsWorld]

I mean we're talking about Simmons + fillers for James Freaking Harden here. But if they trade Simmons to another team, you're not expecting anything of value in return? How does that make sense?

Because Philly cant take back salary.

Hard to get value for simmons when you cant take back salary for him. They need to dump 100% of Harris AND Simmons. even doing that they are still 8 million short and need to dump Green or a combo of 3 lower salary guys.

They can take back picks, but those picks would need to go to a 3rd team who takes the salary required to allow team 2 to absorb simmons.

Only 1 team can absorb simmons or harris. The rest all need to shave 12-20 million. They will need to pay to shave that money. Which complicates things.

And if the spurs decide to either
A) sign a free agent (Ayton rumored)
B) Take on someone elses salary dump that comes with more assets
C) sign and trade for a better player then Harris

Philly is screwed.

Agreed, never understood why people, Non-Net fans, think Nets have no leverage here. They absolutely do and if Nets don't win and need to trade Harden, 270 million dollars will be a lot of money Harden won't refuse and anywhere he goes, a lot of assets need to be surrendered.

[Prokorov]

I mean we're talking about Simmons + fillers for James Freaking Harden here. But if they trade Simmons to another team, you're not expecting anything of value in return? How does that make sense?

Because Philly cant take back salary.

They CAN. They just need to shed more salaries like you said. And a young budding star is totally worth the effort.

They cant. Their are only 2 scenarios.

1) They take back salary for Simmons, and dont have the cap to sign Harden
2) They dont take back salary for Simmons, and with more work can create cap to sign Harden

I agree it may be worth it for the kings to pay assets to shed salary to make room for Simmons. but they aren't going to pay a 3rd team AND pay the sixers. If philly did end up with something it would be really light. like a heavy protected pick tha becomes 2nds.

Like the Kings would need to give up Hield + a pick plus guys like Len and Mitchell. That doesnt leave alot to give philly and trades away spacing they would need with simmons on the floor. Maybe they give philly at most a 1st in there?

-Magic and Spurs would be giving up the ability to sign Beal/Ayton/Porter Jr./Sexton/Bridges/Jackson Jr. to help the kings
-The Hornets would need to let Bridges walk to help the kings

The Thunder/Pistons are decent dump destinations but again you are competing with 20 other teams looking to dump salary. Even if they like hield, they likely get better then heild for taking on the salary required there.

[Suwanee]

Because Philly cant take back salary.

They CAN. They just need to shed more salaries like you said. And a young budding star is totally worth the effort.

They cant. Their are only 2 scenarios.

1) They take back salary for Simmons, and dont have the cap to sign Harden
2) They dont take back salary for Simmons, and with more work can create cap to sign Harden

I agree it may be worth it for the kings to pay assets to shed salary to make room for Simmons. but they aren't going to pay a 3rd team AND pay the sixers. If philly did end up with something it would be really light. like a heavy protected pick tha becomes 2nds.

Like the Kings would need to give up Hield + a pick plus guys like Len and Mitchell. That doesnt leave alot to give philly and trades away spacing they would need with simmons on the floor. Maybe they give philly at most a 1st in there?

-Magic and Spurs would be giving up the ability to sign Beal/Ayton/Porter Jr./Sexton/Bridges/Jackson Jr. to help the kings
-The Hornets would need to let Bridges walk to help the kings

The Thunder/Pistons are decent dump destinations but again you are competing with 20 other teams looking to dump salary. Even if they like hield, they likely get better then heild for taking on the salary required there.

or 3) They take back salary for Simmons, say Haliburton's 4m. Then shed more salaries (10m?) to make room for Harden. Is it not possible?

[Prokorov]

I mean we're talking about Simmons + fillers for James Freaking Harden here. But if they trade Simmons to another team, you're not expecting anything of value in return? How does that make sense?

Because Philly cant take back salary.

Hard to get value for simmons when you cant take back salary for him. They need to dump 100% of Harris AND Simmons. even doing that they are still 8 million short and need to dump Green or a combo of 3 lower salary guys.

They can take back picks, but those picks would need to go to a 3rd team who takes the salary required to allow team 2 to absorb simmons.

Only 1 team can absorb simmons or harris. The rest all need to shave 12-20 million. They will need to pay to shave that money. Which complicates things.

And if the spurs decide to either
A) sign a free agent (Ayton rumored)
B) Take on someone elses salary dump that comes with more assets
C) sign and trade for a better player then Harris

Philly is screwed.

Agreed, never understood why people, Non-Net fans, think Nets have no leverage here. They absolutely do and if Nets don't win and need to trade Harden, 270 million dollars will be a lot of money Harden won't refuse and anywhere he goes, a lot of assets need to be surrendered.

It is less about leverage and more about risk and variables.

If Philly makes a sign-and-trade for us they get harden, for 5 years dealing/relying on 1 team.

If Philly tries to clear the cap, they need to make 3-4 trades with 5-8 teams, relying on up to 8 teams to get it all to work and then have to hope that in all the time Harden doesn't have a change of heart. They also have to get commitments from under the cap teams like the spurs/magic in order to make it work, and convince those teams their value is bigger then trying to sign Ayton or Bridges or Beal.

If Harden wants to go to Philly, it makes the most sense for the Nets/Sixers/Harden to work together. That Means the Nets accomodate with the Sign and trade and Philly gives up real value.

if i came to it, i doubt nets would grind philyl and i doubt morey would be cheap with what he is sending out.

I'd set the baseline of that deal something like:

Simmons
Thybule or Milton
Curry or Kormaz
Heavy protected 1st OR pick Swap

[Prokorov]

They CAN. They just need to shed more salaries like you said. And a young budding star is totally worth the effort.

They cant. Their are only 2 scenarios.

1) They take back salary for Simmons, and dont have the cap to sign Harden
2) They dont take back salary for Simmons, and with more work can create cap to sign Harden

I agree it may be worth it for the kings to pay assets to shed salary to make room for Simmons. but they aren't going to pay a 3rd team AND pay the sixers. If philly did end up with something it would be really light. like a heavy protected pick tha becomes 2nds.

Like the Kings would need to give up Hield + a pick plus guys like Len and Mitchell. That doesnt leave alot to give philly and trades away spacing they would need with simmons on the floor. Maybe they give philly at most a 1st in there?

-Magic and Spurs would be giving up the ability to sign Beal/Ayton/Porter Jr./Sexton/Bridges/Jackson Jr. to help the kings
-The Hornets would need to let Bridges walk to help the kings

The Thunder/Pistons are decent dump destinations but again you are competing with 20 other teams looking to dump salary. Even if they like hield, they likely get better then heild for taking on the salary required there.

or 3) They take back salary for Simmons, say Haliburton's 4m. Then shed more salaries (10m?) to make room for Harden. Is it not possible?

They ALREADY need to shed more salary in addition to simmons and Harris to make it work. now you are adding 4M on top of that? It because really hard... not even just because its more salary to dump, but because there are so few teams that have the cap to absorb the salary.

You would need like 3 of the 5 or 6 teams with cap to all use their cap on your salary dumps, and do it without requiring a ton of compensation. while throwing away their ability to sign Ayton, Bridges, Beal and turning down a dozen offers from other teams looking to pay to dump salary.

It just isnt realistic. and it very likely isnt cheaper then just giving us assets for Harden. and it is certainly WAY more risky then just giving us assets for Harden.

[NetsWorld]

Because Philly cant take back salary.

Hard to get value for simmons when you cant take back salary for him. They need to dump 100% of Harris AND Simmons. even doing that they are still 8 million short and need to dump Green or a combo of 3 lower salary guys.

They can take back picks, but those picks would need to go to a 3rd team who takes the salary required to allow team 2 to absorb simmons.

Only 1 team can absorb simmons or harris. The rest all need to shave 12-20 million. They will need to pay to shave that money. Which complicates things.

And if the spurs decide to either
A) sign a free agent (Ayton rumored)
B) Take on someone elses salary dump that comes with more assets
C) sign and trade for a better player then Harris

Philly is screwed.

Agreed, never understood why people, Non-Net fans, think Nets have no leverage here. They absolutely do and if Nets don't win and need to trade Harden, 270 million dollars will be a lot of money Harden won't refuse and anywhere he goes, a lot of assets need to be surrendered.

It is less about leverage and more about risk and variables.

If Philly makes a sign-and-trade for us they get harden, for 5 years dealing/relying on 1 team.

If Philly tries to clear the cap, they need to make 3-4 trades with 5-8 teams, relying on up to 8 teams to get it all to work and then have to hope that in all the time Harden doesn't have a change of heart. They also have to get commitments from under the cap teams like the spurs/magic in order to make it work, and convince those teams their value is bigger then trying to sign Ayton or Bridges or Beal.

If Harden wants to go to Philly, it makes the most sense for the Nets/Sixers/Harden to work together. That Means the Nets accomodate with the Sign and trade and Philly gives up real value.

if i came to it, i doubt nets would grind philyl and i doubt morey would be cheap with what he is sending out.

I'd set the baseline of that deal something like:

Simmons
Thybule or Milton
Curry or Kormaz
Heavy protected 1st OR pick Swap

In essence, Sixers will have no choice but to accept getting f'd in the tail if they want Harden that bad. Nets easily win that trade.

[NetsWorld]

Because Philly cant take back salary.

Hard to get value for simmons when you cant take back salary for him. They need to dump 100% of Harris AND Simmons. even doing that they are still 8 million short and need to dump Green or a combo of 3 lower salary guys.

They can take back picks, but those picks would need to go to a 3rd team who takes the salary required to allow team 2 to absorb simmons.

Only 1 team can absorb simmons or harris. The rest all need to shave 12-20 million. They will need to pay to shave that money. Which complicates things.

And if the spurs decide to either
A) sign a free agent (Ayton rumored)
B) Take on someone elses salary dump that comes with more assets
C) sign and trade for a better player then Harris

Philly is screwed.

Agreed, never understood why people, Non-Net fans, think Nets have no leverage here. They absolutely do and if Nets don't win and need to trade Harden, 270 million dollars will be a lot of money Harden won't refuse and anywhere he goes, a lot of assets need to be surrendered.

It is less about leverage and more about risk and variables.

If Philly makes a sign-and-trade for us they get harden, for 5 years dealing/relying on 1 team.

If Philly tries to clear the cap, they need to make 3-4 trades with 5-8 teams, relying on up to 8 teams to get it all to work and then have to hope that in all the time Harden doesn't have a change of heart. They also have to get commitments from under the cap teams like the spurs/magic in order to make it work, and convince those teams their value is bigger then trying to sign Ayton or Bridges or Beal.

If Harden wants to go to Philly, it makes the most sense for the Nets/Sixers/Harden to work together. That Means the Nets accomodate with the Sign and trade and Philly gives up real value.

if i came to it, i doubt nets would grind philyl and i doubt morey would be cheap with what he is sending out.

I'd set the baseline of that deal something like:

Simmons
Thybule or Milton
Curry or Kormaz
Heavy protected 1st OR pick Swap

In essence, Sixers will have no choice but to accept getting f'd in the tail if they want Harden that bad. Nets easily win that trade.

[Suwanee]

Because Philly cant take back salary.

Hard to get value for simmons when you cant take back salary for him. They need to dump 100% of Harris AND Simmons. even doing that they are still 8 million short and need to dump Green or a combo of 3 lower salary guys.

They can take back picks, but those picks would need to go to a 3rd team who takes the salary required to allow team 2 to absorb simmons.

Only 1 team can absorb simmons or harris. The rest all need to shave 12-20 million. They will need to pay to shave that money. Which complicates things.

And if the spurs decide to either
A) sign a free agent (Ayton rumored)
B) Take on someone elses salary dump that comes with more assets
C) sign and trade for a better player then Harris

Philly is screwed.

Agreed, never understood why people, Non-Net fans, think Nets have no leverage here. They absolutely do and if Nets don't win and need to trade Harden, 270 million dollars will be a lot of money Harden won't refuse and anywhere he goes, a lot of assets need to be surrendered.

It is less about leverage and more about risk and variables.

If Philly makes a sign-and-trade for us they get harden, for 5 years dealing/relying on 1 team.

If Philly tries to clear the cap, they need to make 3-4 trades with 5-8 teams, relying on up to 8 teams to get it all to work and then have to hope that in all the time Harden doesn't have a change of heart. They also have to get commitments from under the cap teams like the spurs/magic in order to make it work, and convince those teams their value is bigger then trying to sign Ayton or Bridges or Beal.

If Harden wants to go to Philly, it makes the most sense for the Nets/Sixers/Harden to work together. That Means the Nets accomodate with the Sign and trade and Philly gives up real value.

if i came to it, i doubt nets would grind philyl and i doubt morey would be cheap with what he is sending out.

I'd set the baseline of that deal something like:

Simmons
Thybule or Milton
Curry or Kormaz
Heavy protected 1st OR pick Swap

That's certainly reasonable. I doubt Philly will say no to a Simmons/Milton/Kormaz/Pretected 1st package. But essentially that's still Simmons + fillers.

We started this back and forth because you said Simmons + fillers for Harden was idiotic. Now you're proposing it yourself. It isn't that idiotic now, is it?
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