2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

[AussieBuck]

PER?

Get off this ESPN nonsense kids.

Hi there upset Curry fan, PER is indeed not the most useful general stat, but it does do a good job of aggregating high volume offense leaning stats for stars into one number, even if it doesn't really account for added defensive impact. Curry's magical 2016 season sits impressively at 10th all time. That's a mark to be proud of IMO, though I can see his current 21.6 mark not sitting well with you. (right there with his 3rd and 4th seasons)

One nice number to tell me that Jokic's per minute, scaled to the current season numbers are indeed the best ever is kinda neat though. If there's going to be a season trumping Giannis' Covid interrupted 2020 masterpiece for best ever, I'm not mad it's Jokic's magnum opus.

Can't say I consume any ESPN media being an Australian who gets his NBA purely from watching games from league pass though. Isn't their thing that RPM stat that doesn't seem to exist anymore?

It just makes you look silly. EPM/RAPTOR as far as advanced stats go actually hold merit. Team record, on/off TS% of teammates.

If we’re being basic, show me preseason expectations of teams relative to where they are currently standing.

And yes, I am laughing at PER. You’re way smarter than that.

I've stated why I've used PER. I'm not using it on 3 and D guys and I'm not using it as a be all and end all, it's a nice aggregator that scales to seasons to give a historic flavour. RAPTOR if I recall correctly is tied to tracking stats that haven't yet ironed out the bugs and can't be taken seriously at this point. EPM I'm not yet informed on, happy to be filled in.

If we're going on preseason predictions Ja Morant is probably the MVP.

[BoatsNZones]

Hi there upset Curry fan, PER is indeed not the most useful general stat, but it does do a good job of aggregating high volume offense leaning stats for stars into one number, even if it doesn't really account for added defensive impact. Curry's magical 2016 season sits impressively at 10th all time. That's a mark to be proud of IMO, though I can see his current 21.6 mark not sitting well with you. (right there with his 3rd and 4th seasons)

One nice number to tell me that Jokic's per minute, scaled to the current season numbers are indeed the best ever is kinda neat though. If there's going to be a season trumping Giannis' Covid interrupted 2020 masterpiece for best ever, I'm not mad it's Jokic's magnum opus.

Can't say I consume any ESPN media being an Australian who gets his NBA purely from watching games from league pass though. Isn't their thing that RPM stat that doesn't seem to exist anymore?

It just makes you look silly. EPM/RAPTOR as far as advanced stats go actually hold merit. Team record, on/off TS% of teammates.

If we’re being basic, show me preseason expectations of teams relative to where they are currently standing.

And yes, I am laughing at PER. You’re way smarter than that.

I've stated why I've used PER. I'm not using it on 3 and D guys and I'm not using it as a be all and end all, it's a nice aggregator that scales to seasons to give a historic flavour. RAPTOR if I recall correctly is tied to tracking stats that haven't yet ironed out the bugs and can't be taken seriously at this point. EPM I'm not yet informed on, happy to be filled in.

If we're going on preseason predictions Ja Morant is probably the MVP.

How does ja look in EPM/Raptor?

How did his team do without him?


I have to work in 4 hours brother. Happy to discuss this more in a few days.

[AussieBuck]

It just makes you look silly. EPM/RAPTOR as far as advanced stats go actually hold merit. Team record, on/off TS% of teammates.

If we’re being basic, show me preseason expectations of teams relative to where they are currently standing.

And yes, I am laughing at PER. You’re way smarter than that.

I've stated why I've used PER. I'm not using it on 3 and D guys and I'm not using it as a be all and end all, it's a nice aggregator that scales to seasons to give a historic flavour. RAPTOR if I recall correctly is tied to tracking stats that haven't yet ironed out the bugs and can't be taken seriously at this point. EPM I'm not yet informed on, happy to be filled in.

If we're going on preseason predictions Ja Morant is probably the MVP.

How does ja look in EPM/Raptor?

How did his team do without him?


I have to work in 4 hours brother. Happy to discuss this more in a few days.

No idea, I've already stated that I don't like one of those and know nothing about the other. I assume they are Curry stats. I'm not making a Ja case, just noting that his team was expected to be a .500 team. (this was stupid, as was I for bundling them into bets that will lose on other legs) Warriors were pegged at 47.5 wins FYI.

[Janko035]

Not taking shots broseph, just talking about a hypothetical of like 48 wins and better stats vs maybe 54 wins and slightly lesser stats.

It's all cool, I wasn't either. Just seeking to clarify what we are talking about. Not every poster here is confrontational all the time, despite the site's reputation.

[AussieBuck]

Not taking shots broseph, just talking about a hypothetical of like 48 wins and better stats vs maybe 54 wins and slightly lesser stats.

It's all cool, I wasn't either. Just seeking to clarify what we are talking about. Not every poster here is confrontational all the time, despite the site's reputation.

I actually quite enjoy the peace we've maintained between the Giannis and Jokic factions. Long may it continue at least until the inevitable clash of the titans happens in the finals one day.

[Janko035]

I've been meaning to do an update but was waiting for Durant's odds to wash out for accuracy. Will be interesting to see what happens if there's a decent enough win gap between Giannis or Embiid vs Jokic and the solid advanced stat gap remains. Will the Westbrook exception come up again or will wins take it?

Now that Denver is 2 wins away from 4th spot in the West, additional question imposes itself: how exactly do we define "Westbrook exception"? Is it below top 3 or below top 4 or...?

Must have done something never before done in the past 50 years and thought to have been impossible (that was the thought at the time).

Also, finish the season on a 50 point triple double and hit a ridiculous game winning 3.

Westbrook went nuts to end that season. Harden was going to win until Russ went out of control.

I get the sense most people don't have anything like that in their mind when they speak of it. It seems to me most people simply look at it as a ranking issue in a conference, and maybe some arbitrary amount of wins total.

[AussieBuck]

Now that Denver is 2 wins away from 4th spot in the West, additional question imposes itself: how exactly do we define "Westbrook exception"? Is it below top 3 or below top 4 or...?

Must have done something never before done in the past 50 years and thought to have been impossible (that was the thought at the time).

Also, finish the season on a 50 point triple double and hit a ridiculous game winning 3.

Westbrook went nuts to end that season. Harden was going to win until Russ went out of control.

I get the sense most people don't have anything like that in their mind when they speak of it. It seems to me most people simply look at it as a ranking issue in a conference, and maybe some arbitrary amount of wins total.

Russ was making stupid shots to win games and all sorts that season. He was in the news every second day. That was an all narrative all day season and there was the 30/10/10 behind it. Dude took up all the oxygen in the room all the time.

[Janko035]

Must have done something never before done in the past 50 years and thought to have been impossible (that was the thought at the time).

Also, finish the season on a 50 point triple double and hit a ridiculous game winning 3.

Westbrook went nuts to end that season. Harden was going to win until Russ went out of control.

I get the sense most people don't have anything like that in their mind when they speak of it. It seems to me most people simply look at it as a ranking issue in a conference, and maybe some arbitrary amount of wins total.

Russ was making stupid shots to win games and all sorts that season. He was in the news every second day. That was an all narrative all day season and there was the 30/10/10 behind it. Dude took up all the oxygen in the room all the time.

I might not have been clear. I'm not speaking about the specifics of that season or what made it special. I'm merely seeking to clarify what the player's team accomplishment needs to be for us to no longer speak of "Westbrook exception". I hope that was clearer...

[AussieBuck]

I get the sense most people don't have anything like that in their mind when they speak of it. It seems to me most people simply look at it as a ranking issue in a conference, and maybe some arbitrary amount of wins total.

Russ was making stupid shots to win games and all sorts that season. He was in the news every second day. That was an all narrative all day season and there was the 30/10/10 behind it. Dude took up all the oxygen in the room all the time.

I might not have been clear. I'm not speaking about the specifics of that season or what made it special. I'm merely seeking to clarify what the player's team accomplishment needs to be for us to no longer speak of "Westbrook exception". I hope that was clearer...

Seems it took both the all time stupid boxscore stats and bi weekly highlights filler stuff to offset the generally lazy best player on the one the best teams trope. I think one or the other wouldn't have been enough, it took both. So I guess the point I was getting at at the start was that Jokic should have the boxscore part even it's not the groups of 10s that people get fixated on but I dunno if the large, not particularly animated or jumpy waterpolo player on a basketball court thing will quite get the second part over the line for whoever the **** judges these things.

Maybe he'll just keep carrying the team to wins anyway or the other guys wont win that much more and it won't matter. I dunno, most of my thought go to who I should place hedge bets on because I'm deep into Giannis' case.

[nikster]

I've stated why I've used PER. I'm not using it on 3 and D guys and I'm not using it as a be all and end all, it's a nice aggregator that scales to seasons to give a historic flavour. RAPTOR if I recall correctly is tied to tracking stats that haven't yet ironed out the bugs and can't be taken seriously at this point. EPM I'm not yet informed on, happy to be filled in.

If we're going on preseason predictions Ja Morant is probably the MVP.

How does ja look in EPM/Raptor?

How did his team do without him?


I have to work in 4 hours brother. Happy to discuss this more in a few days.

No idea, I've already stated that I don't like one of those and know nothing about the other. I assume they are Curry stats. I'm not making a Ja case, just noting that his team was expected to be a .500 team. (this was stupid, as was I for bundling them into bets that will lose on other legs) Warriors were pegged at 47.5 wins FYI.

Memphis is 11-2 in games Ja missed.
. Them exceeding their record has more to do with underrating of their supporting cast rather than Morants play

Warriors were pegged at 47. 5, and are currently on pace for 60. Memphis is in pace for 55 (on pace for 50 when Ja plays). Pretty similar in terms of exceeding expectations

[GeorgeSears]

Jokic has the numbers and now he's starting to gain the wins as well. The Nuggets are finally getting some luck in terms of scheduling. They've hit a soft spot and are taking advantage going 9-3 in their last 12. It also helps that the Jazz have fallen off a cliff so the gap between them for the 4th spot is now 2 games.

[CntOutSmrtCrazy]

Read on Twitter

Almost a 30-point triple double at 60/50/90?

"Another level" is right!

This is insane. Those are straight NB2K easy mode stats.

[cpower]

Still the best player on best team record, my money is still on Steph or KD (if he is back in next 2 week), wild card is CP3.

[bebopdeluxe]

Vegas sees this race very differently than this board.

[Infinite Llamas]

Still the best player on best team record, my money is still on Steph or KD (if he is back in next 2 week), wild card is CP3.

If Steph wins it’ll be because the voters all put money on him at the start of the season and they don’t want to take a bath there.

Jokic/Embiid/Giannis are the top 3 right now and the mental gymnastics some will try to perform to convince themselves otherwise is exhaustive.

[Infinite Llamas]

I don’t remember people lining up to give Millsap the award in 2015 when the Hawks had the best record.

Best player on best team might be the laziest of the lazy arguments when there are so many other factors in play.

[cpower]

Still the best player on best team record, my money is still on Steph or KD (if he is back in next 2 week), wild card is CP3.

If Steph wins it’ll be because the voters all put money on him at the start of the season and they don’t want to take a bath there.

Jokic/Embiid/Giannis are the top 3 right now and the mental gymnastics some will try to perform to convince themselves otherwise is exhaustive.

MVP is never the best player award , and votes know about it. Embiid would have won it if he played enough games last year. Remember this is a 82 games season still a lot of ball to play. Its too early to call right now but longer season make the better record stand out even further.

[cpower]

I don’t remember people lining up to give Millsap the award in 2015 when the Hawks had the best record.

Best player on best team might be the laziest of the lazy arguments when there are so many other factors in play.

because the Hawks never had the best record. What year did they have the best record in the league?

[Sharkboy242]

Still the best player on best team record, my money is still on Steph or KD (if he is back in next 2 week), wild card is CP3.

[Tony15]

Embiid should be leading the discussion if you ask me....as much as I hate to admit it.