Knicks - Kings PG

[Chanel Bomber]

Regarding the last sentence, I don't even know what it means. I believe that some players can be held back or set up to fail by their organizations. I just do not think it was the case for Frank or RJ. I do believe it is true to some extent with Obi.

You don't believe it for RJ/Frank because you don't like them

You do believe it for Obi because you do like him

It's the same exact thing

I don't know why you think we as an organization were elite at putting guys into position to succeed all this time and it's all only on them if they don't, except for Obi, it's not his fault, we just are failing him. But everyone else we've developed as best we can

Makes more sense to just assume we don't put anyone in a good position to succeed, and success comes in spite of the org instead of failure coming in spite of it.

You make assumptions about me as a person instead of arguing the point. You're speculating about my intentions because you don't want to argue the point. It's called ad hominem.

RJ's one of my favorite players in the NBA, and my favorite Knick since Melo along with Mitch. That doesn't mean I should pretend that he has been held back by this organization, or not look at his numbers realistically.

I liked Frank, I just thought it was crystal-clear early that he did not have NBA talent, and a draft bust.

I didn't want the Knicks to draft Obi, in fact I was asked by some to tone down my criticism of the pick on draft night.

And stop it with the intellectually dishonest straw man arguments. I never called the Knicks "elite" at putting their young players in a position to succeed.

[robillionaire]

Can we please move on from the Frank discussion. France scammed us. We got Baguetted. NY and France are even for the Statue of Liberty now that’s for damn sure. At least they rewarded us with Fourni3r.

[DOT]

but it's part of it, isn't it ?

i think, when you're talking about rj, you're talking more about putting guys in position to succeed than development (which honestly happens in the summer more than during the year because there's simply more time). and we do an absolutely terrible job of that for almost all the young players. a lot of that is we hire coaches with a singular approach and they want guys to play the way they want and not what benefits the players themselves. it's also partially why the value of these players never gets too high.

A lot of the time, it is simply guys need more minutes

Like, Deuce would benefit significantly from staying down in the G League and getting consistent 30 mpg, even against lesser competition

Grimes might benefit from getting closer to 30 mpg, but him getting a consistent 22 or so mpg is good for him

Obi definitely would benefit from getting more like 20 mpg, but you can see him struggle when he gets more, so that might be his cap

RJ gets a lot of minutes, and consistent minutes, but he's also the furthest developed of the guys. So it becomes with him more about putting him in good situations, and we're not really doing that. But part of that issue is, we'd likely be taking a step back in terms of wins to accommodate him, and this FO simply isn't gonna do that.

[thebuzzardman]

How the hell did Evan go 6-6 in 1st and only end up with 11 FGA. I guess he didn’t play in the 4th but still

Evan got us off to a great start and then it got contagious. Everyone else started hitting threes. We were never really threatened by the Kings. Gotta feel bad for Alvin Gentry who's a good coach. He's got nothing to work with except Fox, Haliburton, and Mitchell.

Yeah maybe. It just seems weird to have a guy go off like that and then just let him vanish

The P&R game was working for Fournier, particularly with Randle.

Then they abandoned it.
Who knows. Maybe the Kings countered. Also, even before the 4th, Fournier sat for a while.

Thibs hates the P&R, apparently. It's not that the Knicks never run, but sure feels like they don't run it often.

[thebuzzardman]

Kemba just needs to be honest with himself and retire. That lil hot streak he had for a few games was just going off adrenaline cuz his pride was hurt and he wanted to show life. But it ended up doing him more damage than good, as his knees have lost even more pop because of the mins played during it. He is finished. He just hasn’t come to grips with it yet.

[DOT]

You make assumptions about me as a person instead of arguing the point. You're speculating about my intentions because you don't want to argue the point. It's called ad hominem.

RJ's one of my favorite players in the NBA, and my favorite Knick since Melo along with Mitch. That doesn't mean I should pretend that he has been held back by this organization, or not look at his numbers realistically.

I liked Frank, I just thought it was crystal-clear early that he did not have NBA talent, and a draft bust.

I didn't want the Knicks to draft Obi, in fact I was asked by some to tone down my criticism of the pick on draft night.

And stop it with the intellectually dishonest straw man arguments. I never called the Knicks "elite" at putting their young players in a position to succeed.

I agree with you

Every single player has been put in the best position possible to succeed by this organization, and literally all their failures are only a result of them. We literally couldn't have done anything better

Except for poor Obi, nothing's his fault, it's all on the organization that his development is stunted

It's weird how we stopped developing guys perfectly once Obi came along. I mean, everyone else we did everything possible to get them to succeed

Also, I'd say it's intellectually dishonest to make hundreds if not thousands of posts on why players suck, then when challenged be like "no, I like them actually"

Be like if I ended one of my posts about Elf or Burks with "but I like him, so you can't say my criticisms are invalid".

[cgmw]

Regarding the last sentence, I don't even know what it means. I believe that some players can be held back or set up to fail by their organizations. I just do not think it was the case for Frank or RJ. I do believe it is true to some extent with Obi.

You don't believe it for RJ/Frank because you don't like them

You do believe it for Obi because you do like him

It's the same exact thing

I don't know why you think we as an organization were elite at putting guys into position to succeed all this time and it's all only on them if they don't, except for Obi, it's not his fault, we just are failing him. But everyone else we've developed as best we can

Makes more sense to just assume we don't put anyone in a good position to succeed, and success comes in spite of the org instead of failure coming in spite of it.

You make assumptions about me as a person instead of arguing the point. You're speculating about my intentions because you don't want to argue the point. It's called ad hominem.

RJ's one of my favorite players in the NBA, and my favorite Knick since Melo along with Mitch. That doesn't mean I should pretend that he has been held back by this organization, or not look at his numbers realistically.

I liked Frank, I just thought it was crystal-clear early that he did not have NBA talent, and a draft bust.

I didn't want the Knicks to draft Obi, in fact I was asked by some to tone down my criticism of the pick on draft night.

And again stop it with the intellectually dishonest straw man arguments. I never called the Knicks "elite" at putting their young players in a position to succeed.

My take on the Knicks Rorschach test is that the franchise did RJ Barrett no favors by drafting him onto a Steve Mills-Scott Perry-David Fizdale joint that quickly became a Leon "CAA Godfather Trade" Rose-Tom "Win Now" Thibs production.

If they were serious about building the right way, the Knicks would have developed RJ from the jump as the focal point of a YOUNG REBUILDING TEAM with a growth identity, NOT a "win now" 8 seed-or-bust behind mercenary veteran mentality.

We do not possess a time machine with the ability to alter the past, so there is literally no way of knowing who RJ could have been under more advantageous circumstances. And yes, Chanel, I've heard you say it before and I'm ready for you to say it again -- they have played the sh*t out of RJ. But minutes played is not the only indication of good development. The context of those minutes was and continues to be on a dysfunctional organization that lacks an identity beyond being absurdly dysfunctional.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- it will take generational talent (better than RJ) to overcome the Dolan dysfunction. The Knicks one and only hope of drafting a superstar will be if they happen to land a once-in-a-generation type talent that's just too good to fail. Otherwise, the Dolan organization will find a way to screw up just about everybody they bring on board, be it a draftee, free agent, trade acquisition, coach, scout, analytics nerd, or executive. Thank god we still have Breen, Clyde, and Walzewski who all got grandfathered in from previous ownership. Other than that, you're looking at literally 20+ years of 100% failure rate among all Knick employees.

It's therefore not some radical stance to predict failure for RJ. It's basically a statistical certainty and has been since the minute he got drafted.

[thebuzzardman]

this man didnt even know grimes until we drafted him

From cam reddish to Lamelo ball my scouting acumen is impeccable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was all in on grimes while you were drooling for bones hyland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m glad you’ve finally come around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome aboard the Grimes express my guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next stop is Stardom!!!!!!!

STARDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This you?

on the Road to Grimes...

Grimes it is folks smfh.

Those are the only 2 times you mentioned Grimes before we drafted him

Also, found this gem lol

Cant believe im agreeing with you but i agree Langford is Tatum 2.0.

Oh snap! KDot with the receipts!

Every time you see a GreenArrow exclamation point, imagine this noise:

Watch on YouTube

[thebuzzardman]

From cam reddish to Lamelo ball my scouting acumen is impeccable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was all in on grimes while you were drooling for bones hyland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m glad you’ve finally come around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome aboard the Grimes express my guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next stop is Stardom!!!!!!!

STARDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This you?

Grimes it is folks smfh.

Those are the only 2 times you mentioned Grimes before we drafted him

Also, found this gem lol

Cant believe im agreeing with you but i agree Langford is Tatum 2.0.

He also gave up on Grimes in summer league

Just going to be honest Grimes doesn’t look like an nba player rn!!!!

Looks like a total absolute miss rn!!!

GreenArrow taking losses left and right!

Watch on YouTube

[TrueWarrior]

Obi has shown a lot of interesting elements to his game recently. His shooting has been better but the handle he shows sometimes is also great to see. It looked tighter last night and he looked confident with it.

Hes an “older” rookie contract player sure, but Obi is already a solid-good player and there looks to be some real nice potential left in him with room for improvement in his shot, handle, post moves, and defense. No reason to believe he’s a finished product, yet he already makes an impact since he’s a freak athlete. Just gotta see what he can do with more time already.

[thebuzzardman]

Speaking on The Lowe Post Podcast, ESPN's Tim MacMahon said, "I have been assured that they will not move Brunson before the trade deadline unless it is, and I quote, a 'What the bleep are they thinking type of offer?'"

Brunson status as an upcoming unrestricted free agent this summer seems to be sparking some of the trade interest. Both MacMahon and host Zach Lowe said that Dallas is going to have to pay to keep the guard.

"This I know: Jalen Brunson’s preference would be to stay in Dallas. He ain’t taking a discount to do it," said MacMahon. "He wants to get paid, period. Preferably in Dallas. I’ve asked around about that, I feel like I’ve got very strong information there.

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/265633/It-Would-Take-A-Major-Offer-To-Get-Jalen-Brunson-In-Trade

Marc Stein said the Knicks are currently not engaged in any trade talks for Brunson. seems likely we’re not getting him

Always seemed logical it would be an offseason thing IF it were to happen at all

[Chanel Bomber]

You make assumptions about me as a person instead of arguing the point. You're speculating about my intentions because you don't want to argue the point. It's called ad hominem.

RJ's one of my favorite players in the NBA, and my favorite Knick since Melo along with Mitch. That doesn't mean I should pretend that he has been held back by this organization, or not look at his numbers realistically.

I liked Frank, I just thought it was crystal-clear early that he did not have NBA talent, and a draft bust.

I didn't want the Knicks to draft Obi, in fact I was asked by some to tone down my criticism of the pick on draft night.

And stop it with the intellectually dishonest straw man arguments. I never called the Knicks "elite" at putting their young players in a position to succeed.

I agree with you

Every single player has been put in the best position possible to succeed by this organization, and literally all their failures are only a result of them. We literally couldn't have done anything better

Except for poor Obi, nothing's his fault, it's all on the organization that his development is stunted

It's weird how we stopped developing guys perfectly once Obi came along. I mean, everyone else we did everything possible to get them to succeed

Also, I'd say it's intellectually dishonest to make hundreds if not thousands of posts on why players suck, then when challenged be like "no, I like them actually"

Be like if I ended one of my posts about Elf or Burks with "but I like him, so you can't say my criticisms are invalid".

Because liking a player doesn't necessarily have anything to do with assessing their game critically and honestly. I love Westbrook and want him to succeed - I can still admit that he sucks. Same with RJ.

I never said my criticism of RJ was valid simply "because I like him". I just said that I like RJ in response to you saying I don't like RJ.

You keep going with the dishonest straw man arguments about me. Just toxic and immature behavior, especially from a mod. I'm here to argue basketball points, not to be told by other people who I like or don't like, or what my intentions are.

[thebuzzardman]

Grimes out here showing he’s more than a 3 and D guy

Read on Twitter

on the second clip he put haliburton a pretty solid defender in the blender

he had him on skates.

impressive.

he needs to be unleashed as the primary or second ball handler with the bench… annoying to watch iq and Burks ball hog while he’s in a corner

He should be starting over Fournier, that's for damn sure.

Hell, there's an argument he should start over RJ, but that would mean still seeing Fournier, so that's a no go.

I'd start him Burks too, for that matter.

[Zenzibar]

From cam reddish to Lamelo ball my scouting acumen is impeccable!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I was all in on grimes while you were drooling for bones hyland!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I’m glad you’ve finally come around!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Welcome aboard the Grimes express my guy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Next stop is Stardom!!!!!!!

STARDOM!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

This you?

Grimes it is folks smfh.

Those are the only 2 times you mentioned Grimes before we drafted him

Also, found this gem lol

Cant believe im agreeing with you but i agree Langford is Tatum 2.0.

Oh snap! KDot with the receipts!

Every time you see a GreenArrow exclamation point, imagine this noise:

Watch on YouTube

K-Dot is the Librarian of RGM Knicks.

[thebuzzardman]

This really is how some of you guys are

Read on Twitter

X

[Chanel Bomber]

You don't believe it for RJ/Frank because you don't like them

You do believe it for Obi because you do like him

It's the same exact thing

I don't know why you think we as an organization were elite at putting guys into position to succeed all this time and it's all only on them if they don't, except for Obi, it's not his fault, we just are failing him. But everyone else we've developed as best we can

Makes more sense to just assume we don't put anyone in a good position to succeed, and success comes in spite of the org instead of failure coming in spite of it.

You make assumptions about me as a person instead of arguing the point. You're speculating about my intentions because you don't want to argue the point. It's called ad hominem.

RJ's one of my favorite players in the NBA, and my favorite Knick since Melo along with Mitch. That doesn't mean I should pretend that he has been held back by this organization, or not look at his numbers realistically.

I liked Frank, I just thought it was crystal-clear early that he did not have NBA talent, and a draft bust.

I didn't want the Knicks to draft Obi, in fact I was asked by some to tone down my criticism of the pick on draft night.

And again stop it with the intellectually dishonest straw man arguments. I never called the Knicks "elite" at putting their young players in a position to succeed.

My take on the Knicks Rorschach test is that the franchise did RJ Barrett no favors by drafting him onto a Steve Mills-Scott Perry-David Fizdale joint that quickly became a Leon "CAA Godfather Trade" Rose-Tom "Win Now" Thibs production.

If they were serious about building the right way, the Knicks would have developed RJ from the jump as the focal point of a YOUNG REBUILDING TEAM with a growth identity, NOT a "win now" 8 seed-or-bust behind mercenary veteran mentality.

We do not possess a time machine with the ability to alter the past, so there is literally no way of knowing who RJ could have been under more advantageous circumstances. And yes, Chanel, I've heard you say it before and I'm ready for you to say it again -- they have played the sh*t out of RJ. But minutes played is not the only indication of good development. The context of those minutes was and continues to be on a dysfunctional organization that lacks an identity beyond being absurdly dysfunctional.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- it will take generational talent (better than RJ) to overcome the Dolan dysfunction. The Knicks one and only hope of drafting a superstar will be if they happen to land a once-in-a-generation type talent that's just too good to fail. Otherwise, the Dolan organization will find a way to screw up just about everybody they bring on board, be it a draftee, free agent, trade acquisition, coach, scout, analytics nerd, or executive. Thank god we still have Breen, Clyde, and Walzewski who all got grandfathered in from previous ownership. Other than that, you're looking at literally 20+ years of 100% failure rate among all Knick employees.

It's therefore not some radical stance to predict failure for RJ. It's basically a statistical certainty and has been since the minute he got drafted.

You and I assign responsibility at different stages of the process, and that's fine.

You think the bigger issue is talent development. I think the bigger issue is talent evaluation.

We can definitely agree to disagree on that.

I just want to point out that Haliburton is enjoying some individual success despite Sacramento's dysfunction. They too are competing for the playoffs, and they too have a ball-dominant, high-usage, inefficient star in Fox. Curry spent his early years playing alongside a black hole in Monta Ellis in a dysfunctional environment as well - although Curry's one of one. It didn't prevent him from reaching his potential down the road. To a lesser extent, even Mitch has been productive for the Knicks.

We both agree the organizational failure starts with James Dolan though.

[cgmw]

You make assumptions about me as a person instead of arguing the point. You're speculating about my intentions because you don't want to argue the point. It's called ad hominem.

RJ's one of my favorite players in the NBA, and my favorite Knick since Melo along with Mitch. That doesn't mean I should pretend that he has been held back by this organization, or not look at his numbers realistically.

I liked Frank, I just thought it was crystal-clear early that he did not have NBA talent, and a draft bust.

I didn't want the Knicks to draft Obi, in fact I was asked by some to tone down my criticism of the pick on draft night.

And again stop it with the intellectually dishonest straw man arguments. I never called the Knicks "elite" at putting their young players in a position to succeed.

My take on the Knicks Rorschach test is that the franchise did RJ Barrett no favors by drafting him onto a Steve Mills-Scott Perry-David Fizdale joint that quickly became a Leon "CAA Godfather Trade" Rose-Tom "Win Now" Thibs production.

If they were serious about building the right way, the Knicks would have developed RJ from the jump as the focal point of a YOUNG REBUILDING TEAM with a growth identity, NOT a "win now" 8 seed-or-bust behind mercenary veteran mentality.

We do not possess a time machine with the ability to alter the past, so there is literally no way of knowing who RJ could have been under more advantageous circumstances. And yes, Chanel, I've heard you say it before and I'm ready for you to say it again -- they have played the sh*t out of RJ. But minutes played is not the only indication of good development. The context of those minutes was and continues to be on a dysfunctional organization that lacks an identity beyond being absurdly dysfunctional.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- it will take generational talent (better than RJ) to overcome the Dolan dysfunction. The Knicks one and only hope of drafting a superstar will be if they happen to land a once-in-a-generation type talent that's just too good to fail. Otherwise, the Dolan organization will find a way to screw up just about everybody they bring on board, be it a draftee, free agent, trade acquisition, coach, scout, analytics nerd, or executive. Thank god we still have Breen, Clyde, and Walzewski who all got grandfathered in from previous ownership. Other than that, you're looking at literally 20+ years of 100% failure rate among all Knick employees.

It's therefore not some radical stance to predict failure for RJ. It's basically a statistical certainty and has been since the minute he got drafted.

You and I assign responsibility at different stages of the process, and that's fine.

You think the bigger issue is talent development. I think the bigger issue is talent evaluation.

We can definitely agree to disagree on that.

I just want to point out that Haliburton is enjoying some individual success despite Sacramento's dysfunction. They too are competing for the playoffs, and they too have a ball-dominant, high-usage, inefficient star in Fox. Curry spent his early years playing alongside a black hole in Monta Ellis in a dysfunctional environment as well - although Curry's one of one. It didn't prevent him from reaching his potential down the road. To a lesser extent, even Mitch has been productive for the Knicks.

We both agree the organizational failure starts with James Dolan though.

Talent development? Try organizational development.

The big problem is the organization is run like a joke, which therefore precludes both development and evaluation.

In a hypothetical time machine to 2018, a well-run organization wouldn't have fallen for the Durant-Kyrie okey doke. They would have committed to the tank, committed to a PROPER executive search to coincide with the 2019 Draft. That proper executive would have NEVER signed Julius Randle as a fugaze veteran marquee star, and would have surrounded RJ with a stable executive staff, coaching staff, and roster. In all likelihood, that 2019 season would have resulted in another top 4 pick, which could have ended up being Lamelo. Then the 2020 season could have ended in yet another top 4 pick, which could have ended up Mobley.

That's not some far-flung wild alternate universe. That's a very feasible and relatively "normal" way to do things.

You turning the RJ debate into a referendum on "talent evaluation" rings totally hollow since he was the undisputed 3rd pick on every professional scouting board. It just sounds like you're ambitious to call yourself a talent evaluator, which is fine I guess. Good luck to you, but your arguments make no sense.

[dakomish23]

When looking at actual on court time, he has a valid point.

Frank's first three years he averaged over 20 minutes per game every season.

RJ has started 171 of 172 games in his first three years, averaging over 30 minutes.

Even Knox started 57 games his first year, averaging 28.8 minutes a game.

Obi received 11 minutes/game year 1 and is now at 15.8. Most fans clamoring for more Obi, would be thrilled if he were receiving the playing time Frank, RJ or Knox got as rookies.

How many DNP-CDS did Frank get?

Stop looking at just the average which doesn’t include any context

Hardly any. Not sure why you'd advise to "stop looking at averages" as if he only played in 2 games. It pretty easy to pull up his playing time info. Most of the games missed were due to injury - he had a groin injury that caused him to miss 30 games in his second year. A few "Did Not Plays", but have no insight into the reason. You can see by the game logs,

https://www.basketball-reference.com/players/n/ntilila01.html

7 DNP-CDS.

Also what I didn’t mention was the bare minimum situational moments he gets. 11 games under 10 mins.

10% of the games available he doesn’t play or is treated like a casual min signing. That’s focusing on developing your lottery pick?

I have no disagreement about Knox. He just sucked

[dakomish23]

Leave it to Channel to ruin what should be a PG thread drooling over the possibility that we may have drafted our future SG

[F N 11]

Grimes out here showing he’s more than a 3 and D guy

Read on Twitter

Been knew that but he play with IQ too much to show more.