Knicks - Kings PG

[Clyde_Style]

Leave it to Channel to ruin what should be a PG thread drooling over the possibility that we may have drafted our future SG

[louisorr]

Leave it to Channel to ruin what should be a PG thread drooling over the possibility that we may have drafted our future SG

we found our Danny Green. only a Timmy, Manu and Tony away from a chip.

[F N 11]

This really is how some of you guys are

Read on Twitter

Randle need to get off twitter lol. That can be interpreted as he held it because fans was saying he don’t dap up his teammates lol. Knicks social media is ran my the inmates, it’s not a good place for players to be looking.

[robillionaire]

Leave it to Channel to ruin what should be a PG thread drooling over the possibility that we may have drafted our future SG

Grimes looking good really has been one of the only silver linings of the season. Of course I’m sure it’s only a matter of time until he has a slump in year 2 and the hyenas come for him too

[Clyde_Style]

Welcome to The Republic of Grimestan

[BKlutch]

Regarding the last sentence, I don't even know what it means. I believe that some players can be held back or set up to fail by their organizations. I just do not think it was the case for Frank or RJ. I do believe it is true to some extent with Obi.

You don't believe it for RJ/Frank because you don't like them

You do believe it for Obi because you do like him

It's the same exact thing

I don't know why you think we as an organization were elite at putting guys into position to succeed all this time and it's all only on them if they don't, except for Obi, it's not his fault, we just are failing him. But everyone else we've developed as best we can

Makes more sense to just assume we don't put anyone in a good position to succeed, and success comes in spite of the org instead of failure coming in spite of it.

If you don't agree with the above, please show me the plays we often run during games to make RJ succeed when he plays with the starters. This organization is not putting our people in the best position to do well in games at a time when it's important for their development.

[dakomish23]

Leave it to Channel to ruin what should be a PG thread drooling over the possibility that we may have drafted our future SG

we found our Danny Green. only a Timmy, Manu and Tony away from a chip.

Manu is who I hoped RJ would train with and try to mirror. We have not seen that

[god shammgod]

Watch on YouTube

[Chanel Bomber]

My take on the Knicks Rorschach test is that the franchise did RJ Barrett no favors by drafting him onto a Steve Mills-Scott Perry-David Fizdale joint that quickly became a Leon "CAA Godfather Trade" Rose-Tom "Win Now" Thibs production.

If they were serious about building the right way, the Knicks would have developed RJ from the jump as the focal point of a YOUNG REBUILDING TEAM with a growth identity, NOT a "win now" 8 seed-or-bust behind mercenary veteran mentality.

We do not possess a time machine with the ability to alter the past, so there is literally no way of knowing who RJ could have been under more advantageous circumstances. And yes, Chanel, I've heard you say it before and I'm ready for you to say it again -- they have played the sh*t out of RJ. But minutes played is not the only indication of good development. The context of those minutes was and continues to be on a dysfunctional organization that lacks an identity beyond being absurdly dysfunctional.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- it will take generational talent (better than RJ) to overcome the Dolan dysfunction. The Knicks one and only hope of drafting a superstar will be if they happen to land a once-in-a-generation type talent that's just too good to fail. Otherwise, the Dolan organization will find a way to screw up just about everybody they bring on board, be it a draftee, free agent, trade acquisition, coach, scout, analytics nerd, or executive. Thank god we still have Breen, Clyde, and Walzewski who all got grandfathered in from previous ownership. Other than that, you're looking at literally 20+ years of 100% failure rate among all Knick employees.

It's therefore not some radical stance to predict failure for RJ. It's basically a statistical certainty and has been since the minute he got drafted.

You and I assign responsibility at different stages of the process, and that's fine.

You think the bigger issue is talent development. I think the bigger issue is talent evaluation.

We can definitely agree to disagree on that.

I just want to point out that Haliburton is enjoying some individual success despite Sacramento's dysfunction. They too are competing for the playoffs, and they too have a ball-dominant, high-usage, inefficient star in Fox. Curry spent his early years playing alongside a black hole in Monta Ellis in a dysfunctional environment as well - although Curry's one of one. It didn't prevent him from reaching his potential down the road. To a lesser extent, even Mitch has been productive for the Knicks.

We both agree the organizational failure starts with James Dolan though.

Talent development? Try organizational development.

The big problem is the organization is run like a joke, which therefore precludes both development and evaluation.

In a hypothetical time machine to 2018, a well-run organization wouldn't have fallen for the Durant-Kyrie okey doke. They would have committed to the tank, committed to a PROPER executive search to coincide with the 2019 Draft. That proper executive would have NEVER signed Julius Randle as a fugaze veteran marquee star, and would have surrounded RJ with a stable executive staff, coaching staff, and roster. In all likelihood, that 2019 season would have resulted in another top 4 pick, which could have ended up being Lamelo. Then the 2020 season could have ended in yet another top 4 pick, which could have ended up Mobley.

That's not some far-flung wild alternate universe. That's a very feasible and relatively "normal" way to do things.

You turning the RJ debate into a referendum on "talent evaluation" rings totally hollow since he was the undisputed 3rd pick on every professional scouting board. It just sounds like you're ambitious to call yourself a talent evaluator, which is fine I guess. Good luck to you, but your arguments make no sense.

I mostly agree with you, and I was against clearing cap space for KD and Kyrie, because it was obvious to me they wouldn't come here anyway.

Two things I disagree with:
1. Personally I'd rather have Haliburton than Lamelo, and he was still on the board when the Knicks selected Obi at #8. So it's not all about draft position (to me), although you have better odds of drafting an All-Star in the top 5.

2. Being the consensus #3 pick on the day of the draft doesn't mean you're the third most talented player in the draft. Consensus has often been proven wrong throughout NBA history. Michael Beasley was the consensus #2 prospect in 2008, and he was drafted by an elite organization in the Miami Heat. He had a disappointing NBA career regardless. Same for Justice Winslow. James Wiseman had a terrible rookie season despite playing with Curry, being mentored by Draymond, and being the #2 pick - although his book has yet to be written. The draft isn't an exact science where the draft order necessarily reflects the talent hierarchy.

Also, when did I call myself a talent evaluator?

I just have an opinion on how good some of our players are based on the stats and the eye test. I don't know if that makes me a talent evaluator, I've never claimed to be one. I've actually changed my opinion of RJ, who I thought was the right pick back in 2019.

I don't know what the issue is with looking at past drafts retroactively and having an opinion on which players teams should have drafted in hindsight, including my favorite team. Draft picks (hits and misses) have altered the trajectories of all the franchises in the NBA.

[BKlutch]

https://basketball.realgm.com/wiretap/265633/It-Would-Take-A-Major-Offer-To-Get-Jalen-Brunson-In-Trade

Marc Stein said the Knicks are currently not engaged in any trade talks for Brunson. seems likely we’re not getting him

Always seemed logical it would be an offseason thing IF it were to happen at all

Doing a sign and trade for Brunson would occur only after the playoffs because Dallas likes him a lot and needs to play him. The reasons they have for sign and trade is if he may want more $$ than they want to pay, and if he would leave as a FA no matter what they offer — at least they get something for him.

We have a reason to do a sign and trade — we can get rid of contracts we don't want. For example, if we trade Fournier and another player for Brunson, the salaries match. They really want their 1st round pick back, too, because it is blocking their ability to trade other 1st rounders further in the future.

But since we wouldn't be getting Brunson until after the season, we also have reasons not to do a sign and trade. If Brunson is intent on leaving to come to NY, then we'd like to get him without having to help Dallas, or giving up their pick. Dallas might even ask for a valuable youngster (ouch). The downside is that we'd have to get rid of some salary through trades before we could sign him, so our ability to trade some of our less valuable assets for expirings now or at early in the summer would really get us Brunson without paying Dallas, but we might pay other teams in our efforts to shed salary.

Do we really have a great Cap Guru? Does Leon really know what he's doing? Is Brunson really a good enough PG to put our team on a better track next year?

[B8RcDeMktfxC]

My take on the Knicks Rorschach test is that the franchise did RJ Barrett no favors by drafting him onto a Steve Mills-Scott Perry-David Fizdale joint that quickly became a Leon "CAA Godfather Trade" Rose-Tom "Win Now" Thibs production.

If they were serious about building the right way, the Knicks would have developed RJ from the jump as the focal point of a YOUNG REBUILDING TEAM with a growth identity, NOT a "win now" 8 seed-or-bust behind mercenary veteran mentality.

We do not possess a time machine with the ability to alter the past, so there is literally no way of knowing who RJ could have been under more advantageous circumstances. And yes, Chanel, I've heard you say it before and I'm ready for you to say it again -- they have played the sh*t out of RJ. But minutes played is not the only indication of good development. The context of those minutes was and continues to be on a dysfunctional organization that lacks an identity beyond being absurdly dysfunctional.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again -- it will take generational talent (better than RJ) to overcome the Dolan dysfunction. The Knicks one and only hope of drafting a superstar will be if they happen to land a once-in-a-generation type talent that's just too good to fail. Otherwise, the Dolan organization will find a way to screw up just about everybody they bring on board, be it a draftee, free agent, trade acquisition, coach, scout, analytics nerd, or executive. Thank god we still have Breen, Clyde, and Walzewski who all got grandfathered in from previous ownership. Other than that, you're looking at literally 20+ years of 100% failure rate among all Knick employees.

It's therefore not some radical stance to predict failure for RJ. It's basically a statistical certainty and has been since the minute he got drafted.

You and I assign responsibility at different stages of the process, and that's fine.

You think the bigger issue is talent development. I think the bigger issue is talent evaluation.

We can definitely agree to disagree on that.

I just want to point out that Haliburton is enjoying some individual success despite Sacramento's dysfunction. They too are competing for the playoffs, and they too have a ball-dominant, high-usage, inefficient star in Fox. Curry spent his early years playing alongside a black hole in Monta Ellis in a dysfunctional environment as well - although Curry's one of one. It didn't prevent him from reaching his potential down the road. To a lesser extent, even Mitch has been productive for the Knicks.

We both agree the organizational failure starts with James Dolan though.

Talent development? Try organizational development.

The big problem is the organization is run like a joke, which therefore precludes both development and evaluation.

In a hypothetical time machine to 2018, a well-run organization wouldn't have fallen for the Durant-Kyrie okey doke. They would have committed to the tank, committed to a PROPER executive search to coincide with the 2019 Draft. That proper executive would have NEVER signed Julius Randle as a fugaze veteran marquee star, and would have surrounded RJ with a stable executive staff, coaching staff, and roster. In all likelihood, that 2019 season would have resulted in another top 4 pick, which could have ended up being Lamelo. Then the 2020 season could have ended in yet another top 4 pick, which could have ended up Mobley.

That's not some far-flung wild alternate universe. That's a very feasible and relatively "normal" way to do things.

You turning the RJ debate into a referendum on "talent evaluation" rings totally hollow since he was the undisputed 3rd pick on every professional scouting board. It just sounds like you're ambitious to call yourself a talent evaluator, which is fine I guess. Good luck to you, but your arguments make no sense.

Your hate for Dolan is bleeding into your altenative histories, twisting them so they become implausible.

Recall the Mills-Perry FO started in summer 2017, with Fizdale joining them in summer 2018. If you set the dial on your time machine to 2017 maybe you could hope for a different outcome to the end of the PJax era. I, for one, was thorougly anti-Pills from the start. But if you start in 2018 you are one year into the Pills FO. If at that point Dolan had institute an executive search you, personally, would have been all about how Dolan couldn't stop himself from personally intervening in the organization and, more generally, there would have been blow back over the whole 'first all black FO' thing.

What could have been done better in 2018 was (i) not win a couple of meaningless end of season games, making the drafting position needlessly worse, and (ii) draft someone other than Kevin Knox. Drafting MPJr would have been committing to the tank since you then could end up in summer 2019 with RJ, MPJr and KP.

And, of course, KP is another elephant in the room in your alternative history. If the Knicks aren't taken in by the KD+KI hype one has to assume they never dump KP in order to extricate themselves from THJ and Courney Lee's salaries. So either they would have KP in summer 2019 (and extend him) or traded him for something meaningful.

Similarly, "stable (..) coaching staff, and roster" would have meant sacking Fizdale somewhere way earlier - and so getting a less hopeless coach, who would assumably have won more games - but also having a worse (but stable) roster. But the only instability in the Roster was trading Morris for a pick - which is a tanking move. What one would presumably want is to employ a worse roster - by taking on bad contracts for picks - in summer 2019, never mind about its stability.

[F N 11]

Watch on YouTube

Swagu nailed it. Randle messing up the opportunity of a lifetime.

[3toheadmelo]

this post is gonna upset some people

Read on Twitter

[F N 11]

It’s the kings. He really battled.

[Juco24]

Obi has shown a lot of interesting elements to his game recently. His shooting has been better but the handle he shows sometimes is also great to see. It looked tighter last night and he looked confident with it.

Hes an “older” rookie contract player sure, but Obi is already a solid-good player and there looks to be some real nice potential left in him with room for improvement in his shot, handle, post moves, and defense. No reason to believe he’s a finished product, yet he already makes an impact since he’s a freak athlete. Just gotta see what he can do with more time already.

The ability to go to his left and finish was impressive imo. More and more he's showing the ability to be a good player. I really think Obi and Mitch have more to offer than Thibsdale will allow

[3toheadmelo]

It’s the kings. He really battled.

knew it would upset you

[Chanel Bomber]

Watch on YouTube

Forever respect Perk for being the only person in the mainstream media to call out KP for being a diva.

Perk makes a lot of good points in this segment.

[DaGawd]

Watch on YouTube

He’s right.. today’s athlete is just mentally soft

[thebuzzardman]

Welcome to The Republic of Grimestan

Not Grimea?

[F N 11]

Julia is not it. I really hope we trade him. It’s getting to be an obsession.