Tank World Order (7.0)

[Nebuchadnezzar]

I think lost in all of this is an analysis of what is actually happening on the floor. It's one thing to look at who the team is playing and gauge the caliber of the raptors, and a whole other to actually look how they are playing. Over the past ten games the pace, energy, ball movement, defensive rotations, playmaking, and shot-making have all reached a new level. Also, the short rotations built for the playoffs. These are all things which aren't as affected by who the raptors are playing. I would say this team is the best since the championship year, and on their way to being better than the Lowry/Derozan Raptors.

[720]

Spoiler:

Lately 720 seems like a troll whose main priority is to get a rise out of fans who want to see us remain competitive while developing.

Milwaukee is 5-3 without Giannis not including the two games we beat them. Miami was 8-2 without Lowry this season before we beat them twice in the last week. Atlanta was 2-2 without Trae (and one win was against the healthy Sixers) before we beat them the other night. Brooklyn is 29-16 without Kyrie. Obviously there isn't a huge sample size for some (like Atlanta), but those still look like mostly very good teams to me.

The only players from that list that bring their team's results way up are Embiid (Sixers are 4-8 without him) and Jrue (Bucks are 4-9 without him), but it's important to know the whole story. When Embiid missed 9 straight games and 10 of 13 overall early in the season, the Sixers were without Harris for 5 while Curry and Green also missed a few games. Philly also sat multiple starters against the Grizzlies in a blowout loss in December. Early in the season when Jrue missed some time, the Bucks were also without Portis and Middleton for a few games and lately they've been missing Allen a lot. Giannis also missed a few games while Jrue was out. They're just 2-4 recently without Jrue, but one of those games was against us and the other losses were 3 road games against the Hornets and the Hawks (without Capela and Bogdanovic). The teams that Milwaukee lost to lately are teams we just beat in the last week. FWIW, Milwaukee is 19-9 at home with 2 of those 9 losses against us last month.

The games against the Warriors and Jazz where they rested all of their top players are definitely fair points. I'm not sure we would have 100% lost to the healthy Warriors in that scenario though. They were on a B2B and finishing a 5-game road trip while we were waiting around at home for a few days because of a postponement. The game against the Jazz very well could have been a loss. Our early-season meeting against Utah was without OG and on a night where our bench had arguably their worst game all season (20 points on 7/26 shooting) while Utah's bench dropped 57 points on us, so it's hard to say how we would have stacked up against them.

If we're going to point to every single game where our opponent was missing one of their best players, it should also be taken into consideration that FVV+GTJ+OG+Scottie+Siakam played together just 3 times before the new year-- meaning we were without at least one of our top players in 29 of our first 32 games -- and we were 15-17 at that point. A pretty sizeable chunk of those 17 losses came without multiple starters (all 5 missed the Cleveland game, no FVV+OG+GTJ against Philly and no OG+GTJ against Boston and Memphis) while we lost a few other close games without Siakam (1-point loss to Cleveland and 3-point loss to Chicago), FVV (6-point loss against Detroit) and OG (1-point loss to OKC).

Now that we have been healthy for the past month (or at least significantly more healthy than in the first 30+ games), we are starting to see what this team's true ceiling might be. Since January 1st, we are 11-6 overall and 8-1 with our entire starting lineup available. Our only loss at full strength this calendar year was the letdown game against the Blazers which was our first game back after a tough 5-game road trip. Of our other 5 losses, we had one brutal loss against the Pistons and 4 close losses -- all within one possession in the final 30 seconds -- to 4 of the best teams in the league. We are also top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency during this stretch despite playing mostly good teams.

This thread made some sense early in the year when there were numerous question marks (how good will Scottie be, did OG/GTJ improve, can Siakam regain his 2019/20 form after shoulder surgery, how will the fit of our top players look, etc.) and we were battling injuries, but we're just too good when we're healthy. Unless you're rooting for injures to key players, the lottery is looking less and less likely by the day.

I’m not a troll you’re just in denial of the truth. This wall of text doesn’t dispute anything I said. Just making excuses about why beating teams missing star players is still some how respectable or the same. lol

No matter how many spins you put on it, playing teams missing top 10-15 players isnt the same. Sorry. Our record vs teams above .500 is heavily skewed.

How does that wall of text not prove anything? Other NBA teams are also playing against the Giannis-less Bucks, Lowry-less Heat and Trae-less Hawks. Why are Milwaukee+Miami+Atlanta 15-8 in those other games without Giannis/Lowry/Trae while they went a combined 1-5 against us?

When we were mostly healthy (sans Siakam) to start the year, we started 6-4. Our starting lineup and rotation was a revolving door in the next 22 games which resulted in a 9-13 stretch because OG missed 15 games and FVV/Siakam/GTJ/Scottie missed 3 games each while we were also missing Birch (16 games) and Achiuwa (9 games) for a significant amount of time. We're 11-6 in the last 17 games because we are mostly healthy; Siakam/OG/Achiuwa have played every game while GTJ has missed 6, Scottie has missed 3 and FVV has missed 2. Unsurprisingly, we went 3-5 in the games where we were missing multiple players.

Again, unless you are rooting for injuries to our top players, this isn't a lottery team. If you want to admit to that, go for it. You are the one in denial lol.

It proves nothing because all I see are excuses.

Also what kind of twisted logic is this? lol so because these undermanned teams also win some games, all of a sudden that means it no longer matters that we literally have 9 wins vs teams that are missing STAR players? (No Embiid, Curry, Draymond, Mitchell, Lowry, Gobert, Giannis, Jrue, Trae, etc in our wins) lol that’s a joke.

Also sorry to break it to you but Siakam, OG, missing games say vs the Bucks or the sixers isn’t the same as Embiid and Giannis or Jrue missing those games. I love OG and I still think Siakam can be a great piece for us going forward but that’s just reality.

Also no I don’t think we’re going to be a high lottery team because we have too many fake wins. lol

It’s not trolling when I’m literally telling you the facts.

[Los_29]

But it only matters in the context of going through every team and every win and weighting it based on who that team beat on that given night.

Have you done this?

Spoiler:

Lately 720 seems like a troll whose main priority is to get a rise out of fans who want to see us remain competitive while developing.

Milwaukee is 5-3 without Giannis not including the two games we beat them. Miami was 8-2 without Lowry this season before we beat them twice in the last week. Atlanta was 2-2 without Trae (and one win was against the healthy Sixers) before we beat them the other night. Brooklyn is 29-16 without Kyrie. Obviously there isn't a huge sample size for some (like Atlanta), but those still look like mostly very good teams to me.

The only players from that list that bring their team's results way up are Embiid (Sixers are 4-8 without him) and Jrue (Bucks are 4-9 without him), but it's important to know the whole story. When Embiid missed 9 straight games and 10 of 13 overall early in the season, the Sixers were without Harris for 5 while Curry and Green also missed a few games. Philly also sat multiple starters against the Grizzlies in a blowout loss in December. Early in the season when Jrue missed some time, the Bucks were also without Portis and Middleton for a few games and lately they've been missing Allen a lot. Giannis also missed a few games while Jrue was out. They're just 2-4 recently without Jrue, but one of those games was against us and the other losses were 3 road games against the Hornets and the Hawks (without Capela and Bogdanovic). The teams that Milwaukee lost to lately are teams we just beat in the last week. FWIW, Milwaukee is 19-9 at home with 2 of those 9 losses against us last month.

The games against the Warriors and Jazz where they rested all of their top players are definitely fair points. I'm not sure we would have 100% lost to the healthy Warriors in that scenario though. They were on a B2B and finishing a 5-game road trip while we were waiting around at home for a few days because of a postponement. The game against the Jazz very well could have been a loss. Our early-season meeting against Utah was without OG and on a night where our bench had arguably their worst game all season (20 points on 7/26 shooting) while Utah's bench dropped 57 points on us, so it's hard to say how we would have stacked up against them.

If we're going to point to every single game where our opponent was missing one of their best players, it should also be taken into consideration that FVV+GTJ+OG+Scottie+Siakam played together just 3 times before the new year-- meaning we were without at least one of our top players in 29 of our first 32 games -- and we were 15-17 at that point. A pretty sizeable chunk of those 17 losses came without multiple starters (all 5 missed the Cleveland game, no FVV+OG+GTJ against Philly and no OG+GTJ against Boston and Memphis) while we lost a few other close games without Siakam (1-point loss to Cleveland and 3-point loss to Chicago), FVV (6-point loss against Detroit) and OG (1-point loss to OKC).

Now that we have been healthy for the past month (or at least significantly more healthy than in the first 30+ games), we are starting to see what this team's true ceiling might be. Since January 1st, we are 11-6 overall and 8-1 with our entire starting lineup available. Our only loss at full strength this calendar year was the letdown game against the Blazers which was our first game back after a tough 5-game road trip. Of our other 5 losses, we had one brutal loss against the Pistons and 4 close losses -- all within one possession in the final 30 seconds -- to 4 of the best teams in the league. We are also top 10 in both offensive and defensive efficiency during this stretch despite playing mostly good teams.

This thread made some sense early in the year when there were numerous question marks (how good will Scottie be, did OG/GTJ improve, can Siakam regain his 2019/20 form after shoulder surgery, how will the fit of our top players look, etc.) and we were battling injuries, but we're just too good when we're healthy. Unless you're rooting for injures to key players, the lottery is looking less and less likely by the day.

I’m not a troll you’re just in denial of the truth. This wall of text doesn’t dispute anything I said. Just making excuses about why beating teams missing star players is still some how respectable or the same. lol

No matter how many spins you put on it, playing teams missing top 10-15 players isnt the same. Sorry. Our record vs teams above .500 is heavily skewed.

You literally just said that you will not do any research into this and yet you continue to talk about fake wins because you don’t want to admit you were wrong about this team. That meets the criteria for trolling. It’s childish and does nothing to promote positive and productive discourse on here.

[Madhouse]

I think lost in all of this is an analysis of what is actually happening on the floor. It's one thing to look at who the team is playing and gauge the caliber of the raptors, and a whole other to actually look how they are playing. Over the past ten games the pace, energy, ball movement, defensive rotations, playmaking, and shot-making have all reached a new level. Also, the short rotations built for the playoffs. These are all things which aren't as affected by who the raptors are playing. I would say this team is the best since the championship year, and on their way to being better than the Lowry/Derozan Raptors.

They have work to do to be better than 19-20 Raptors. Get a bench (Center, guard and 3 and D wing).

If they don't do a trade, they could still be the weakest Masai team except the tank last year. Maybe they are comparable to that first team in 13-14 but they got too many weaknesses right now.

In the long run they will be good, the question will be playoff success and how the team is set up.

[Los_29]

I think lost in all of this is an analysis of what is actually happening on the floor. It's one thing to look at who the team is playing and gauge the caliber of the raptors, and a whole other to actually look how they are playing. Over the past ten games the pace, energy, ball movement, defensive rotations, playmaking, and shot-making have all reached a new level. Also, the short rotations built for the playoffs. These are all things which aren't as affected by who the raptors are playing. I would say this team is the best since the championship year, and on their way to being better than the Lowry/Derozan Raptors.

They have work to do to be better than 19-20 Raptors. Get a bench (Center, guard and 3 and D wing).

If they don't do a trade, they could still be the weakest Masai team except the tank last year. Maybe they are comparable to that first team in 13-14 but they got too many weaknesses right now.

In the long run they will be good, the question will be playoff success and how the team is set up.

They are way better than the 2013-2014 team. We were starting guys like Terence Ross and Patrick Patterson. And Pascal/Fred now are better than what Demar/Lowry were back then. We were higher in the standings back then because the East was so bad. But this team is significantly more talented.

I think people would be surprised with how good this team is if we get some productive bench pieces.

I have no doubt Masai can draft a good player in this draft. The question is does he want to really take 3-4 years to develop him when you already have so many young players? I don’t think he does and he knows he can get a good player for Dragic/FRP.

[Raptors_128]

We are really about to trade our 1st round pick to make a play at the 6th seed.

I’m guessing they want to see what this group can do in the playoffs before committing a lot of money to FVV/GTJ. If it’s not a good showing they still have an opportunity to trade them.

[PhilBlackson]

FRP might be a goner

Would hate this move.

Williams is pretty much nothing more than a rim runner who will have little to no impact come Playoff time. If we're gonna use our FRP, Turner should be the minimum goal in mind. Don't wanna see it squandered just to add a rotation player like Williams or Poeltl.

At least with Myles it's not only some added rim protection, we'd also get a guy who can have some good scoring nights and space the floor which is an absolute necessity with Pascal, OG and especially Scottie as he continues to improve his shooting, he does a lot of damage in & around the post.

I'm very so-so on the idea of trading a FRP for guys with occasional flashes like Bamba, Jalen Smith or maybe Oneyka but I'd easily take/target them before I do Williams. Really I'd be trying to dig up younger players who might have a higher ceiling long term (not saying these teams would trade them) but I'd be trying to snag someone like Hunter, Haliburton, Simons, Kuminga (very unlikely but they need to pay Poole if they want to keep him) -- I just like to see us add someone who might have a star potential longer term since we can't be high enough in the draft, try to see if a big expiring + FRP can pry away someone on a cash pinched team.

If not I know I'd feel torn about it but maybe even just float out to see what OG + 1st might net, maybe SGA, Ingram, Fox...I know a lot of people will shut it down being arguably our best all around defender, I know & understand how valuable that is but come Playoff time even more important than a good defence (which we'd still have), is having star power and guys that can get you buckets. I'm not trusting Pascal to be that guy, Fred can make big outside shots but teams tighten up/shrink the court on what his tiny frame can do, Gary can also shoot but his handles aren't there yet where he consistently get himself clean looks. But add another guy who can get a bucket, teams will be forced to collapse from either Siakam and whatever young scorer or they can pitch out all day to Fred & Gary or find Scottie on the blocks (or worst case pitch out as well). But that's just my feeling about it.

But for me the goal of the FRP shouldn't be to just get another rotation player. At minimum it should be a very high impact player that has the potential to push someone out of the starting lineup whether that's a more established name like Turner, adding it to OG to find another young star or on it's own with Goran to pry away a younger player who may become one like Hunter, Hali etc and at worst guys with upside to be like Turner in Bamba, Smith, Oneyka...but again not just a rotation guy like Williams, Poeltl etc.

[Madhouse]

We are really about to trade our 1st round pick to make a play at the 6th seed.

I’m guessing they want to see what this group can do in the playoffs before committing a lot of money to FVV/GTJ. If it’s not a good showing they still have an opportunity to trade them.

It can make sense, it depends on the player obviously.

But the logic to trade that pick for a win now player who also helps in the future makes sense as long as you are willing to shell out big contracts down the road and keep your team together.

The Raptors are really flawed but 1-2 players can change that and the East is meh, especially after this year most likely. Things in Milwaukee, Miami and Brooklyn might break down sooner rather than later due to age, roster construction and dysfunction. The rest of the East can be beaten (Miami really anyway) if the Raptors make 1-2 strong additions.

If you avoid the play in and make the playoffs with a legit addition it's a good deal as long as that player is good and fairly young. Giving up a mid first in that case would not matter.

But if you just want to bolster the bench a bit you need to keep that pick and just hope Masai drafts a good player.

[Los_29]

We are really about to trade our 1st round pick to make a play at the 6th seed.

I’m guessing they want to see what this group can do in the playoffs before committing a lot of money to FVV/GTJ. If it’s not a good showing they still have an opportunity to trade them.

No, that’s not it at all. They want to make the playoffs because they believe in this core. They aren’t evaluating Fred. He’s been with the club for 6 years now. They know exactly what he brings. And if they performed poorly why would you trade them when their value has just taken a hit?

If they are trading a FRP they will be getting a good player in return. That pick will likely produce a player worse, possibly significantly worse than that player we get. Masai has traded his FRP on three separate occasions during his tenure here.

[sbsat]

I’m not a troll you’re just in denial of the truth. This wall of text doesn’t dispute anything I said. Just making excuses about why beating teams missing star players is still some how respectable or the same. lol

No matter how many spins you put on it, playing teams missing top 10-15 players isnt the same. Sorry. Our record vs teams above .500 is heavily skewed.

How does that wall of text not prove anything? Other NBA teams are also playing against the Giannis-less Bucks, Lowry-less Heat and Trae-less Hawks. Why are Milwaukee+Miami+Atlanta 15-8 in those other games without Giannis/Lowry/Trae while they went a combined 1-5 against us?

When we were mostly healthy (sans Siakam) to start the year, we started 6-4. Our starting lineup and rotation was a revolving door in the next 22 games which resulted in a 9-13 stretch because OG missed 15 games and FVV/Siakam/GTJ/Scottie missed 3 games each while we were also missing Birch (16 games) and Achiuwa (9 games) for a significant amount of time. We're 11-6 in the last 17 games because we are mostly healthy; Siakam/OG/Achiuwa have played every game while GTJ has missed 6, Scottie has missed 3 and FVV has missed 2. Unsurprisingly, we went 3-5 in the games where we were missing multiple players.

Again, unless you are rooting for injuries to our top players, this isn't a lottery team. If you want to admit to that, go for it. You are the one in denial lol.

It proves nothing because all I see are excuses.

Also what kind of twisted logic is this? lol so because these undermanned teams also win some games, all of a sudden that means it no longer matters that we literally have 9 wins vs teams that are missing STAR players? (No Embiid, Curry, Draymond, Mitchell, Lowry, Gobert, Giannis, Jrue, Trae, etc in our wins) lol that’s a joke.

Also sorry to break it to you but Siakam, OG, missing games say vs the Bucks or the sixers isn’t the same as Embiid and Giannis or Jrue missing those games. I love OG and I still think Siakam can be a great piece for us going forward but that’s just reality.

Also no I don’t think we’re going to be a high lottery team because we have too many fake wins. lol

It’s not trolling when I’m literally telling you the facts.

it seems abundantly clear to me that there is nothing about this team you love. When they lose its what is expected, when they win its a fake win. Seriously why do you even watch them? I'm honestly curious? Its an honest question. The raptors can only play the team in front of them.

[pingpongrac]

I’m not a troll you’re just in denial of the truth. This wall of text doesn’t dispute anything I said. Just making excuses about why beating teams missing star players is still some how respectable or the same. lol

No matter how many spins you put on it, playing teams missing top 10-15 players isnt the same. Sorry. Our record vs teams above .500 is heavily skewed.

How does that wall of text not prove anything? Other NBA teams are also playing against the Giannis-less Bucks, Lowry-less Heat and Trae-less Hawks. Why are Milwaukee+Miami+Atlanta 15-8 in those other games without Giannis/Lowry/Trae while they went a combined 1-5 against us?

When we were mostly healthy (sans Siakam) to start the year, we started 6-4. Our starting lineup and rotation was a revolving door in the next 22 games which resulted in a 9-13 stretch because OG missed 15 games and FVV/Siakam/GTJ/Scottie missed 3 games each while we were also missing Birch (16 games) and Achiuwa (9 games) for a significant amount of time. We're 11-6 in the last 17 games because we are mostly healthy; Siakam/OG/Achiuwa have played every game while GTJ has missed 6, Scottie has missed 3 and FVV has missed 2. Unsurprisingly, we went 3-5 in the games where we were missing multiple players.

Again, unless you are rooting for injuries to our top players, this isn't a lottery team. If you want to admit to that, go for it. You are the one in denial lol.

It proves nothing because all I see are excuses.

Also what kind of twisted logic is this? lol so because these undermanned teams also win some games, all of a sudden that means it no longer matters that we literally have 9 wins vs teams that are missing STAR players? (No Embiid, Curry, Draymond, Mitchell, Lowry, Gobert, Giannis, Jrue, Trae, etc in our wins) lol that’s a joke.

Also sorry to break it to you but Siakam, OG, missing games say vs the Bucks or the sixers isn’t the same as Embiid and Giannis or Jrue missing those games. I love OG and I still think Siakam can be a great piece for us going forward but that’s just reality.

Also no I don’t think we’re going to be a high lottery team because we have too many fake wins. lol

It’s not trolling when I’m literally telling you the facts.

How is it twisted logic? If those undermanned teams we are beating are so bad, why are they winning 65% of their games against other teams when they are missing the same players? I also don't know where you're pulling up 9 wins against teams without star players because I see 6 (MIL without Giannis x2, PHI without Embiid, GSW without their whole team, UTA without their whole team, ATL without Trae). If all of those wins against teams missing their best players shouldn't count, why are you not acknowledging that basically every other team is benefitting from similar absences? Why do you not care about Cleveland beating Miami without Butler+Bam twice, Brooklyn without Durant, Milwaukee without Giannis+Middleton+Jrue or Utah without Gobert? Or what about the Bulls beating the Lakers without LeBron then AD and Denver without Jokic as well as Atlanta twice without half of their starters and key bench players? I could continue to go down the list through nearly every team in the league and pick out 4-6 wins against teams that were missing their best player and/or most of their starters due to protocols.

Obviously one of our starters missing a game isn't the same as Embiid/Giannis missing a game, but it is definitely significant when we are missing 2 starters against Boston (OG+GTJ), Memphis (OG+GTJ) and Phoenix (GTJ+Scottie). Also, how are you going to include Jrue and Lowry as "stars" then turn around and say us missing Siakam and FVV is irrelevant? Siakam and FVV have both clearly been better than Lowry and they have at least played at the same level as Jrue. If you're including Lowry/Jrue as stars, then you definitely have to put Siakam/FVV in the same tier, which completely wrecks any argument about us not being affected by our own absences.

The games where we were missing at least one of Siakam/FVV or two of OG/GTJ/Scottie accounted for 9 of our 16 losses against +.500 teams. One of those losses was the Cleveland blowout without our entire team, but that is basically nullified by one of the Warriors/Jazz wins. The other 8 were legitimate losses where we just came up short in most of them because we were missing either our best player or multiple starters. I have a hard time seeing us losing all of those one or two possession games to Chicago (twice), Cleveland, Philly and Phoenix as well as the three or four possession games against Boston, Dallas and Memphis. Shouldn't that mean our record against +.500 teams is skewed in the other direction?

At the very least, our overall record and record against +.500 teams would be nearly identical if every team was healthy for every game. We obviously wouldn't have won all of the games where we were without Siakam/FVV or GTJ+OG/Scottie, but we also wouldn't have lost all of the games we won against teams without their best player.

No, you are not telling facts. That much should be clear when you say you're too lazy to do any research. You are trying to push the narrative that we are the only team benefitting from beating undermanned teams when that is absolutely not the case at all.

[DelAbbot]

We are really about to trade our 1st round pick to make a play at the 6th seed.

I’m guessing they want to see what this group can do in the playoffs before committing a lot of money to FVV/GTJ. If it’s not a good showing they still have an opportunity to trade them.

While I agree with this, history shows Masai will probably give them 2-3 cracks in the playoffs to evaluate before he makes a move. So they will get paid big money by us, because Masai can't lose assets for nothing.

Unless another "Kawhi" type trade opportunity comes early.

[Yeezus_]

Highly doubt we trade a FRP imo

[sbsat]

success isn't bi-modal for the raptors - its not win it all or dont bother. Progress not perfection is really the theme of this year and they are progressing faster than anyone thought. So if they make a splash in trade market to win one round, its serves as a nice base moving fwd

[Raptors_128]

We are really about to trade our 1st round pick to make a play at the 6th seed.

I’m guessing they want to see what this group can do in the playoffs before committing a lot of money to FVV/GTJ. If it’s not a good showing they still have an opportunity to trade them.

No, that’s not it at all. They want to make the playoffs because they believe in this core. They aren’t evaluating Fred. He’s been with the club for 6 years now. They know exactly what he brings. And if they performed poorly why would you trade them when their value has just taken a hit?

If they are trading a FRP they will be getting a good player in return. That pick will likely produce a player worse, possibly significantly worse than that player we get. Masai has traded his FRP on three separate occasions during his tenure here.

Yeah I don’t know about all that. He’s had a different role in the playoffs these 6 or so years. I think it’s different this time as he’ll be the one running the show (no Lowry/Kawhi/DeRozan).

We were a top-4 seed for a few years before Masai actually spent a 1st on an addition. This team is barely an 8th seed at the moment.

I am all for trading a 1st for a young player with some control but I hope it’s not a rental or an old player. Raps are not good enough to make win-now moves like that.

[720]

How does that wall of text not prove anything? Other NBA teams are also playing against the Giannis-less Bucks, Lowry-less Heat and Trae-less Hawks. Why are Milwaukee+Miami+Atlanta 15-8 in those other games without Giannis/Lowry/Trae while they went a combined 1-5 against us?

When we were mostly healthy (sans Siakam) to start the year, we started 6-4. Our starting lineup and rotation was a revolving door in the next 22 games which resulted in a 9-13 stretch because OG missed 15 games and FVV/Siakam/GTJ/Scottie missed 3 games each while we were also missing Birch (16 games) and Achiuwa (9 games) for a significant amount of time. We're 11-6 in the last 17 games because we are mostly healthy; Siakam/OG/Achiuwa have played every game while GTJ has missed 6, Scottie has missed 3 and FVV has missed 2. Unsurprisingly, we went 3-5 in the games where we were missing multiple players.

Again, unless you are rooting for injuries to our top players, this isn't a lottery team. If you want to admit to that, go for it. You are the one in denial lol.

It proves nothing because all I see are excuses.

Also what kind of twisted logic is this? lol so because these undermanned teams also win some games, all of a sudden that means it no longer matters that we literally have 9 wins vs teams that are missing STAR players? (No Embiid, Curry, Draymond, Mitchell, Lowry, Gobert, Giannis, Jrue, Trae, etc in our wins) lol that’s a joke.

Also sorry to break it to you but Siakam, OG, missing games say vs the Bucks or the sixers isn’t the same as Embiid and Giannis or Jrue missing those games. I love OG and I still think Siakam can be a great piece for us going forward but that’s just reality.

Also no I don’t think we’re going to be a high lottery team because we have too many fake wins. lol

It’s not trolling when I’m literally telling you the facts.

it seems abundantly clear to me that there is nothing about this team you love. When they lose its what is expected, when they win its a fake win. Seriously why do you even watch them? I'm honestly curious? Its an honest question. The raptors can only play the team in front of them.

Never refuted this.

Also lol at the whole “nothing about this team you love” point. What a load of crock. I’ve been a fan of his team basically my whole life. There is plenty to be happy about regarding this franchise (Masai, Nurse, Barnes, OG, development staff, etc). Just because I stated our record is misleading doesn’t mean I hate the team or the franchise.

[Ref_from_hell]

How does that wall of text not prove anything? Other NBA teams are also playing against the Giannis-less Bucks, Lowry-less Heat and Trae-less Hawks. Why are Milwaukee+Miami+Atlanta 15-8 in those other games without Giannis/Lowry/Trae while they went a combined 1-5 against us?

When we were mostly healthy (sans Siakam) to start the year, we started 6-4. Our starting lineup and rotation was a revolving door in the next 22 games which resulted in a 9-13 stretch because OG missed 15 games and FVV/Siakam/GTJ/Scottie missed 3 games each while we were also missing Birch (16 games) and Achiuwa (9 games) for a significant amount of time. We're 11-6 in the last 17 games because we are mostly healthy; Siakam/OG/Achiuwa have played every game while GTJ has missed 6, Scottie has missed 3 and FVV has missed 2. Unsurprisingly, we went 3-5 in the games where we were missing multiple players.

Again, unless you are rooting for injuries to our top players, this isn't a lottery team. If you want to admit to that, go for it. You are the one in denial lol.

It proves nothing because all I see are excuses.

Also what kind of twisted logic is this? lol so because these undermanned teams also win some games, all of a sudden that means it no longer matters that we literally have 9 wins vs teams that are missing STAR players? (No Embiid, Curry, Draymond, Mitchell, Lowry, Gobert, Giannis, Jrue, Trae, etc in our wins) lol that’s a joke.

Also sorry to break it to you but Siakam, OG, missing games say vs the Bucks or the sixers isn’t the same as Embiid and Giannis or Jrue missing those games. I love OG and I still think Siakam can be a great piece for us going forward but that’s just reality.

Also no I don’t think we’re going to be a high lottery team because we have too many fake wins. lol

It’s not trolling when I’m literally telling you the facts.

it seems abundantly clear to me that there is nothing about this team you love. When they lose its what is expected, when they win its a fake win. Seriously why do you even watch them? I'm honestly curious? Its an honest question. The raptors can only play the team in front of them.

Oh he's definitely a fan of the team, he just enjoys constantly crapping on our starting point guard at every opportunity he gets, trying to downplay basically every game this team wins, and glorifies every time they lose. But he's definitely a fan of the team.

[720]

How does that wall of text not prove anything? Other NBA teams are also playing against the Giannis-less Bucks, Lowry-less Heat and Trae-less Hawks. Why are Milwaukee+Miami+Atlanta 15-8 in those other games without Giannis/Lowry/Trae while they went a combined 1-5 against us?

When we were mostly healthy (sans Siakam) to start the year, we started 6-4. Our starting lineup and rotation was a revolving door in the next 22 games which resulted in a 9-13 stretch because OG missed 15 games and FVV/Siakam/GTJ/Scottie missed 3 games each while we were also missing Birch (16 games) and Achiuwa (9 games) for a significant amount of time. We're 11-6 in the last 17 games because we are mostly healthy; Siakam/OG/Achiuwa have played every game while GTJ has missed 6, Scottie has missed 3 and FVV has missed 2. Unsurprisingly, we went 3-5 in the games where we were missing multiple players.

Again, unless you are rooting for injuries to our top players, this isn't a lottery team. If you want to admit to that, go for it. You are the one in denial lol.

It proves nothing because all I see are excuses.

Also what kind of twisted logic is this? lol so because these undermanned teams also win some games, all of a sudden that means it no longer matters that we literally have 9 wins vs teams that are missing STAR players? (No Embiid, Curry, Draymond, Mitchell, Lowry, Gobert, Giannis, Jrue, Trae, etc in our wins) lol that’s a joke.

Also sorry to break it to you but Siakam, OG, missing games say vs the Bucks or the sixers isn’t the same as Embiid and Giannis or Jrue missing those games. I love OG and I still think Siakam can be a great piece for us going forward but that’s just reality.

Also no I don’t think we’re going to be a high lottery team because we have too many fake wins. lol

It’s not trolling when I’m literally telling you the facts.

How is it twisted logic? If those undermanned teams we are beating are so bad, why are they winning 65% of their games against other teams when they are missing the same players? I also don't know where you're pulling up 9 wins against teams without star players because I see 6 (MIL without Giannis x2, PHI without Embiid, GSW without their whole team, UTA without their whole team, ATL without Trae). If all of those wins against teams missing their best players shouldn't count, why are you not acknowledging that basically every other team is benefitting from similar absences? Why do you not care about Cleveland beating Miami without Butler+Bam twice, Brooklyn without Durant, Milwaukee without Giannis+Middleton+Jrue or Utah without Gobert? Or what about the Bulls beating the Lakers without LeBron then AD and Denver without Jokic as well as Atlanta twice without half of their starters and key bench players? I could continue to go down the list through nearly every team in the league and pick out 4-6 wins against teams that were missing their best player and/or most of their starters due to protocols.

Obviously one of our starters missing a game isn't the same as Embiid/Giannis missing a game, but it is definitely significant when we are missing 2 starters against Boston (OG+GTJ), Memphis (OG+GTJ) and Phoenix (GTJ+Scottie). Also, how are you going to include Jrue and Lowry as "stars" then turn around and say us missing Siakam and FVV is irrelevant? Siakam and FVV have both clearly been better than Lowry and they have at least played at the same level as Jrue. If you're including Lowry/Jrue as stars, then you definitely have to put Siakam/FVV in the same tier, which completely wrecks any argument about us not being affected by our own absences.

The games where we were missing at least one of Siakam/FVV or two of OG/GTJ/Scottie accounted for 9 of our 16 losses against +.500 teams. One of those losses was the Cleveland blowout without our entire team, but that is basically nullified by one of the Warriors/Jazz wins. The other 8 were legitimate losses where we just came up short in most of them because we were missing either our best player or multiple starters. I have a hard time seeing us losing all of those one or two possession games to Chicago (twice), Cleveland, Philly and Phoenix as well as the three or four possession games against Boston, Dallas and Memphis. Shouldn't that mean our record against +.500 teams is skewed in the other direction?

At the very least, our overall record and record against +.500 teams would be nearly identical if every team was healthy for every game. We obviously wouldn't have won all of the games where we were without Siakam/FVV or GTJ+OG/Scottie, but we also wouldn't have lost all of the games we won against teams without their best player.

No, you are not telling facts. That much should be clear when you say you're too lazy to do any research. You are trying to push the narrative that we are the only team benefitting from beating undermanned teams when that is absolutely not the case at all.

This is such a backwards argument, also you’re just talking in circles it’s so boring, this is my last time addressing this. No one cares about how many wins an Embiidless sixers team has or a Curryless Warriors team has. At the end of the day we played both teams without their star players (many of our wins vs above .500 teams have been against teams missing star players btw).

I also don’t care what Cleveland does or any team for that matter. It’s irrelevant to me. We beat the bucks three times, twice without Giannis, once without Jrue. We beat the Heat twice the past few days without Lowry, we beat the hawks without Trae, we beat the warriors without their starting 5, we beat the jazz without their starting 5, Sixers without Embiid, Clippers right after PG went down. That’s 10 games. Would we have lost all 10 games had those guys played? No. But would all of them be wins? hell no.

And for the last time, the players I named above, are more impactful than OG missing a game or Siakam missing a game. They just are.
We’re 3 games above .500 but had our games vs all these teams not played out to our favour through rests and injury we could easily be in that Wizards Knicks range atm. These are facts.

[720]

We are really about to trade our 1st round pick to make a play at the 6th seed.

I’m guessing they want to see what this group can do in the playoffs before committing a lot of money to FVV/GTJ. If it’s not a good showing they still have an opportunity to trade them.

I bet it’s a protected 1st if it does happen.

[720]

It proves nothing because all I see are excuses.

Also what kind of twisted logic is this? lol so because these undermanned teams also win some games, all of a sudden that means it no longer matters that we literally have 9 wins vs teams that are missing STAR players? (No Embiid, Curry, Draymond, Mitchell, Lowry, Gobert, Giannis, Jrue, Trae, etc in our wins) lol that’s a joke.

Also sorry to break it to you but Siakam, OG, missing games say vs the Bucks or the sixers isn’t the same as Embiid and Giannis or Jrue missing those games. I love OG and I still think Siakam can be a great piece for us going forward but that’s just reality.

Also no I don’t think we’re going to be a high lottery team because we have too many fake wins. lol

It’s not trolling when I’m literally telling you the facts.

it seems abundantly clear to me that there is nothing about this team you love. When they lose its what is expected, when they win its a fake win. Seriously why do you even watch them? I'm honestly curious? Its an honest question. The raptors can only play the team in front of them.

Oh he's definitely a fan of the team, he just enjoys constantly crapping on our starting point guard at every opportunity he gets, trying to downplay basically every game this team wins, and glorifies every time they lose. But he's definitely a fan of the team.

Yes 10 month old burner account. Question my fandom. A guy that’s been posting since 2012. One of the first people to claim Siakam has potential to be a star in the forum. A guy that kept predicting high win totals for most of the past Lowry era, someone that used to be part of “Team Positive”. That was a little before your time so you might not know the reference. this is comedy.