Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap

[No-more-rings]

Speaking for myself, i’m probably just going to avoid Westbrook discussions going forward. The fact that there’s a Fat Lever vs Westbrook thread currently going on kind of shows you what his perception is like by some. Given Westbrook’s combination of stats, team success and accolades he should be easily considered a top 50 player of all time but the way he’s talked about it sure doesn’t seem like it. I get he hasn’t been good in recent years, but that shouldn’t cloud our memories.

[IG2]

Man I only clicked on this post to see jokes about "wrap". I don't even see one.....

[Owly]

Sympathize with the idea that the backlash could go too far. "a guy you can't win with" if people are saying that regarding his full career is at very best lacking nuance and probably just wrong.

Agree that what happens before and after can contaminate perspectives what happened at a particular time, one could argue they were a different player. On the other hand contexts outside the immediate frame can give a larger sample and help inform us who the player is. It's a difficult balance and hard to draw firm lines, but certainly we should be aware that this is not apex-Westbrook.

That said

James Harden was a top 3 MVP candidate in 2020 and Lebron his having one of his best offensive seasons next to WB. Once again this is not the resume of a terrible teammate. This is someone who always elevates his superstar teammates.

I ... am inclined to disagree. On '20 Rockets - All Harden On-Off +9.1; Harden and Westbrook together On-Off +5.2 (https://www.basketball-reference.com/teams/HOU/2020/lineups/) and Harden's individual offensive stats are worse including less efficient (https://www.nba.com/stats/impact/#!?LineupIDs=201935&VsLineupIDs=201566&TeamID=1610612745&VsTeamID=1610612745&SeasonType=Regular%20Season&PerMode=Totals&Season=2019-20).

I believe the same team level stuff happened the last year in OKC with Harden and Westbrook.

I don't know what his trend is with stars but using an absolute like "always" ... you have to be confident.

Ok, I shouldn't have used the word 'always'. A better way to say it is Westbrook has a long track record of either helping elevate his superstar teammates or at least not getting in their way. During the 2020 season both Harden and Westbrook were coming off of 5 or so extremely high impact over the top seasons and were due for a dip as they were beginning to age and accumulate milage. I'm not sure how much blame we can put on Russ for Harden's dip. But we can say Harden was still able to maintain his MVP form during that season and finish in the top half of the West. Russ, like usual, found a way to maintain his own level of production while not taking away from his teammates and still having one of the best teams in the league.

BTW it's "bad rap".

That's a bold faced lie.

No. It's someone trying to stop you from looking silly/foolish/poorly educated or whatever else people might (rightly or wrongly) consider people who misuse English. And an oddly hostile response too. cf: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/usage-bad-rap-vs-bad-rep-vs-bad-wrap.

Also you will note pointed out and on display in the link that playing with Russell literally did take away from Harden's production.

Age/mileage wouldn't explain why Houston would be more effective with Harden alone than with Harden and Westbrook together. I'm unsure whether you read or comprehended the point.

[70sFan]

Speaking for myself, i’m probably just going to avoid Westbrook discussions going forward. The fact that there’s a Fat Lever vs Westbrook thread currently going on kind of shows you what his perception is like by some. Given Westbrook’s combination of stats, team success and accolades he should be easily considered a top 50 player of all time but the way he’s talked about it sure doesn’t seem like it. I get he hasn’t been good in recent years, but that shouldn’t cloud our memories.

Do you really think that Westbrook inside top 10 is a must-have? I find it strange to be honest.

[No-more-rings]

Speaking for myself, i’m probably just going to avoid Westbrook discussions going forward. The fact that there’s a Fat Lever vs Westbrook thread currently going on kind of shows you what his perception is like by some. Given Westbrook’s combination of stats, team success and accolades he should be easily considered a top 50 player of all time but the way he’s talked about it sure doesn’t seem like it. I get he hasn’t been good in recent years, but that shouldn’t cloud our memories.

Do you really think that Westbrook inside top 10 is a must-have? I find it strange to be honest.

Top 10 of what?

[bizil]

Russ IS WHO HE IS! If KD NEVER LEFT OKC, I'm sure they would have won at least one ring. And the narrative on Russ would be a lil different. Because DESPITE his flaws, he would be a perennial All NBA guard with a chip. But once KD left OKC for GSW, that was a RED FLAG! Not enjoying playing with Russ at the PG was a huge issue. If MAGICALLY the Lakers could have added Russ WHILE KEEPING Caruso, KCP, and Kuz, the Lakers would be much better off. But once u get rid of all those guys and add Russ, u sacrificed too much. If the Lakers gave up all that and somehow added Lillard, Kyrie, CP3, Steph, instead of Russ, the Lakers would be BETTER OFF! So just shows Russ isn't able to adapt his game.

What Russ does in terms of numbers is tremendous. BUT that's only one part of the equation when evaluating players. Things like scoring skillset, defense, efficiency, IQ, etc. are also huge. With that said, the Lakers Big 3 hasn't had much playing time together at all. WE ALL KNOW what comes with Russ. A great player. Top 75 and all. But KD leaving OKC AND not being with a PG 13, Harden, and Beal for long periods of time SHOW there's something missing when he plays with other top 20 caliber players in the league. Or in the case of KD and Harden, top 5-7 caliber players in the league. I don't think Russ is a selfish player. He just is who he is.

[Stalwart]

No. It's someone trying to stop you from looking silly/foolish/poorly educated or whatever else people might (rightly or wrongly) consider people who misuse English. And an oddly hostile response too. cf: https://www.merriam-webster.com/words-at-play/usage-bad-rap-vs-bad-rep-vs-bad-wrap.

Relax. That was a joke that went over your head. I agree, its 'bad rap'.

Also you will note pointed out and on display in the link that playing with Russell literally did take away from Harden's production.

Age/mileage wouldn't explain why Houston would be more effective with Harden alone than with Harden and Westbrook together. I'm unsure whether you read or comprehended the point.

It would make sense that Harden would be more productive during the times he's not sharing
the ball and the court with Westbrook. That goes without saying. He was still able to put his typical MVP level statline and production next to Westbrook was the point.

[Prokorov]

Russell Westbrook has well known flaws and deficiencies to his to his game none of which I am going to try and defend. It is true that he lacks BBIQ, is turnover prone, and has a broken jumpshot at times. As true those things may be it is also true that his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses. Despite being maligned by the media and scapegoated for Kevin Durant and now Lebron James careers his track record in the NBA is actually one of consistent team success against some of the best players and best teams of all time. aa

Westbrook is increasingly being labeled as a guy you can't win with but when you look at his career that's not actually true. As the 1B to Kevin Durant he was able to make it all the way to the NBA Finals plowing through the Mavericks, Lakers, and the Spurs. The Thunder would come up short in 2013 due to injuries and in 2014 they lost to a legendary Spurs team in the Conf. Finals. In 2016 he and Kevin Durant were able to once again make the Conference Finals and went up 3-1 against the greatest RS team of all time. In the post Kevin Durant years Westbrook as able to lead some rather unimpressive Thunder rosters to 3 consecutive 47+ Win regular seasons and playoff appearances in a stacked Western Conference. Then as a Houston Rocket he was able to once again help lead his team to a respectable record and playoff appearance alongside James Harden.

Sure, Westbrook has yet to win a NBA championship but this is not the resume of a career loser or someone who holds your team back. This is the track record of one of the fiercest and toughest competitors of all time. The best players and best teams of this era were all pushed to their limit at one time or another by a Russell Westbrook team.

He also gets labeled as a terrible teammate that superstars are almost punished by having to play with. Yet, the fact of the matter is that Kevin Durant, Paul George, and Bradley Beal all had their best individual seasons playing alongside Westbrook. James Harden was a top 3 MVP candidate in 2020 and Lebron his having one of his best offensive seasons next to WB. Once again this is not the resume of a terrible teammate. This is someone who always elevates his superstar teammates.

So yeah, Westbrook is getting a bad wrap. He's not a career loser nor is he a terrible teammate. The reason he and Kevin Durant never won a title was because they ran up against 3 legendary teams during their run: 12 Heat, 14 Spurs, and 16 Warriors. They performed valiantly against all of those teams and just came up short. They also lost a couple of seasons due to injuries. I personally think the Thunder could have came back in 2017 and won it all had Durant not given up.

Westbrook didn't "help stars" go far... he held stars back from going further. Those guys had their best season with Westbrook because they had to... they had to be at their best to carry him. He hurts his teams on both ends immensely. especially in the playoffs.

He held KD back, he held Harden back, He held PG back.

He is the worst high usage player of his era, and arguably ever

[70sFan]

Speaking for myself, i’m probably just going to avoid Westbrook discussions going forward. The fact that there’s a Fat Lever vs Westbrook thread currently going on kind of shows you what his perception is like by some. Given Westbrook’s combination of stats, team success and accolades he should be easily considered a top 50 player of all time but the way he’s talked about it sure doesn’t seem like it. I get he hasn’t been good in recent years, but that shouldn’t cloud our memories.

Do you really think that Westbrook inside top 10 is a must-have? I find it strange to be honest.

Top 10 of what?

Top 50, that's a typo, sorry...

[Stalwart]

Wait, so if #12 is literally the lowest then it means that you have to have someone from my first 2 tiers below him. Who would that be?

My bad I can't count. I suppose #13 is the lowest. Still I'd have him comfortably above GP and fighting it out with Frazier, Paul, Kidd, and Nash.

Davies, Williams, Billups and Parker have noticeably higher team success. None of them have MVP, but let's take a look:

Russell Westbrook: 0 titles, 1 finals appeariance, 1 MVP, 9 all-nba selections (7 without third team), 9 all-star selections

Bob Davies: 1 title, 1 finals appeariance, 0 MVP, 5 all-nba selections (5 without third team), 4 all-star selections

Gus Williams: 1 title, 2 finals appeariance, 0 MVP, 3 all-nba selections (3 without third team), 2 all-star selections

Chauncey Billups: 1 title, 2 finals appeariance, 0 MVP, 3 all-nba selections (1 without third team), 5 all-star selections

Tony Parker: 4 titles, 5 finals appeariance, 0 MVP, 4 all-nba selections (3 without third team), 6 all-star selections

I think that you can argue that at least Davies and Parker have comparable resumes. With Williams, it depends on how much you value all-star games (I don't value them at all).

I think when you consider that Westbrook played in the most competitive era for PGs and was able to rack up 9 All NBA selections is a big deal. And he didn't just win a single MVP and that's it. He actually finished top 5 four years in a row. Add in scoring titles, assist titles, triple double feats and overall statistical production. Factor in how consistently good and competitive his teams were against other all time great teams for all those years and honestly theres no real comparison.

Davies perhaps if you consider his NBL achievements. But Tony Parker? No contest.

[Stalwart]

Russell Westbrook has well known flaws and deficiencies to his to his game none of which I am going to try and defend. It is true that he lacks BBIQ, is turnover prone, and has a broken jumpshot at times. As true those things may be it is also true that his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses. Despite being maligned by the media and scapegoated for Kevin Durant and now Lebron James careers his track record in the NBA is actually one of consistent team success against some of the best players and best teams of all time. aa

Westbrook is increasingly being labeled as a guy you can't win with but when you look at his career that's not actually true. As the 1B to Kevin Durant he was able to make it all the way to the NBA Finals plowing through the Mavericks, Lakers, and the Spurs. The Thunder would come up short in 2013 due to injuries and in 2014 they lost to a legendary Spurs team in the Conf. Finals. In 2016 he and Kevin Durant were able to once again make the Conference Finals and went up 3-1 against the greatest RS team of all time. In the post Kevin Durant years Westbrook as able to lead some rather unimpressive Thunder rosters to 3 consecutive 47+ Win regular seasons and playoff appearances in a stacked Western Conference. Then as a Houston Rocket he was able to once again help lead his team to a respectable record and playoff appearance alongside James Harden.

Sure, Westbrook has yet to win a NBA championship but this is not the resume of a career loser or someone who holds your team back. This is the track record of one of the fiercest and toughest competitors of all time. The best players and best teams of this era were all pushed to their limit at one time or another by a Russell Westbrook team.

He also gets labeled as a terrible teammate that superstars are almost punished by having to play with. Yet, the fact of the matter is that Kevin Durant, Paul George, and Bradley Beal all had their best individual seasons playing alongside Westbrook. James Harden was a top 3 MVP candidate in 2020 and Lebron his having one of his best offensive seasons next to WB. Once again this is not the resume of a terrible teammate. This is someone who always elevates his superstar teammates.

So yeah, Westbrook is getting a bad wrap. He's not a career loser nor is he a terrible teammate. The reason he and Kevin Durant never won a title was because they ran up against 3 legendary teams during their run: 12 Heat, 14 Spurs, and 16 Warriors. They performed valiantly against all of those teams and just came up short. They also lost a couple of seasons due to injuries. I personally think the Thunder could have came back in 2017 and won it all had Durant not given up.

Westbrook didn't "help stars" go far... he held stars back from going further. Those guys had their best season with Westbrook because they had to... they had to be at their best to carry him. He hurts his teams on both ends immensely. especially in the playoffs.

He held KD back, he held Harden back, He held PG back.

He is the worst high usage player of his era, and arguably ever

Well those are your opinions and you're entitled to them. But they are just that...opinions. The facts are that those guys were all very successful next to Westbrook.

[Prokorov]

Russell Westbrook has well known flaws and deficiencies to his to his game none of which I am going to try and defend. It is true that he lacks BBIQ, is turnover prone, and has a broken jumpshot at times. As true those things may be it is also true that his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses. Despite being maligned by the media and scapegoated for Kevin Durant and now Lebron James careers his track record in the NBA is actually one of consistent team success against some of the best players and best teams of all time. aa

Westbrook is increasingly being labeled as a guy you can't win with but when you look at his career that's not actually true. As the 1B to Kevin Durant he was able to make it all the way to the NBA Finals plowing through the Mavericks, Lakers, and the Spurs. The Thunder would come up short in 2013 due to injuries and in 2014 they lost to a legendary Spurs team in the Conf. Finals. In 2016 he and Kevin Durant were able to once again make the Conference Finals and went up 3-1 against the greatest RS team of all time. In the post Kevin Durant years Westbrook as able to lead some rather unimpressive Thunder rosters to 3 consecutive 47+ Win regular seasons and playoff appearances in a stacked Western Conference. Then as a Houston Rocket he was able to once again help lead his team to a respectable record and playoff appearance alongside James Harden.

Sure, Westbrook has yet to win a NBA championship but this is not the resume of a career loser or someone who holds your team back. This is the track record of one of the fiercest and toughest competitors of all time. The best players and best teams of this era were all pushed to their limit at one time or another by a Russell Westbrook team.

He also gets labeled as a terrible teammate that superstars are almost punished by having to play with. Yet, the fact of the matter is that Kevin Durant, Paul George, and Bradley Beal all had their best individual seasons playing alongside Westbrook. James Harden was a top 3 MVP candidate in 2020 and Lebron his having one of his best offensive seasons next to WB. Once again this is not the resume of a terrible teammate. This is someone who always elevates his superstar teammates.

So yeah, Westbrook is getting a bad wrap. He's not a career loser nor is he a terrible teammate. The reason he and Kevin Durant never won a title was because they ran up against 3 legendary teams during their run: 12 Heat, 14 Spurs, and 16 Warriors. They performed valiantly against all of those teams and just came up short. They also lost a couple of seasons due to injuries. I personally think the Thunder could have came back in 2017 and won it all had Durant not given up.

Westbrook didn't "help stars" go far... he held stars back from going further. Those guys had their best season with Westbrook because they had to... they had to be at their best to carry him. He hurts his teams on both ends immensely. especially in the playoffs.

He held KD back, he held Harden back, He held PG back.

He is the worst high usage player of his era, and arguably ever

Well those are your opinions and you're entitled to them. But they are just that...opinions. The facts are that those guys were all very successful next to Westbrook.

And it is your opinion that is a good thing from westbrooks perspective.

[Doctor MJ]

Russell Westbrook has well known flaws and deficiencies to his to his game none of which I am going to try and defend. It is true that he lacks BBIQ, is turnover prone, and has a broken jumpshot at times. As true those things may be it is also true that his strengths far outweigh his weaknesses. Despite being maligned by the media and scapegoated for Kevin Durant and now Lebron James careers his track record in the NBA is actually one of consistent team success against some of the best players and best teams of all time. aa

Westbrook is increasingly being labeled as a guy you can't win with but when you look at his career that's not actually true. As the 1B to Kevin Durant he was able to make it all the way to the NBA Finals plowing through the Mavericks, Lakers, and the Spurs. The Thunder would come up short in 2013 due to injuries and in 2014 they lost to a legendary Spurs team in the Conf. Finals. In 2016 he and Kevin Durant were able to once again make the Conference Finals and went up 3-1 against the greatest RS team of all time. In the post Kevin Durant years Westbrook as able to lead some rather unimpressive Thunder rosters to 3 consecutive 47+ Win regular seasons and playoff appearances in a stacked Western Conference. Then as a Houston Rocket he was able to once again help lead his team to a respectable record and playoff appearance alongside James Harden.

Sure, Westbrook has yet to win a NBA championship but this is not the resume of a career loser or someone who holds your team back. This is the track record of one of the fiercest and toughest competitors of all time. The best players and best teams of this era were all pushed to their limit at one time or another by a Russell Westbrook team.

He also gets labeled as a terrible teammate that superstars are almost punished by having to play with. Yet, the fact of the matter is that Kevin Durant, Paul George, and Bradley Beal all had their best individual seasons playing alongside Westbrook. James Harden was a top 3 MVP candidate in 2020 and Lebron his having one of his best offensive seasons next to WB. Once again this is not the resume of a terrible teammate. This is someone who always elevates his superstar teammates.

So yeah, Westbrook is getting a bad wrap. He's not a career loser nor is he a terrible teammate. The reason he and Kevin Durant never won a title was because they ran up against 3 legendary teams during their run: 12 Heat, 14 Spurs, and 16 Warriors. They performed valiantly against all of those teams and just came up short. They also lost a couple of seasons due to injuries. I personally think the Thunder could have came back in 2017 and won it all had Durant not given up.

I appreciate both your focus and the points you make here. It's easy to get too negative on a player, and I'm known specifically as someone who has been negative toward Westbrook for a long time. The fact remains he had MVP-type impact at his peak and superstar-impact on elite teams, and these are not things that should be dismissed as if they are nothing. They are in fact central to why the guy is a deserving lock for the Hall.

One quibble though: He's not someone who always elevates his superstar teammate. The fact that some of his superstar teammates have done well with him is not the same thing as that.

[70sFan]

My bad I can't count. I suppose #13 is the lowest. Still I'd have him comfortably above GP and fighting it out with Frazier, Paul, Kidd, and Nash.

I don't see any case for him over Nash, Paul or Frazier personally. Unless you are very high on raw boxscore production, all of them were simply better basketball players than Russell and it's not like he has the edge in team success either (in Frazier's case, Walt blows him out here).

[bizil]

Top 13 GOAT PG wise, these guys are MUST HAVES in my opinion:

Magic
Steph
Oscar
Zeke
Stock
CP3
Frazier
Kidd
Nash
GP
Cousy
Russ
Tiny

This is in no particular order BESIDES the top 4 I listed. I get Russ has his flaws and all. BUT his solo accolades, numbers, and longevity being an All Star at times superstar caliber player has him with this group. If he got a ring or two with OKC, he would EASILY be a lock top 10 guy in my opinion. GOAT status is your OVERALL RESUME. That includes solo accolades, team accolades, longevity being elite, numbers, peak-prime value, and impact on the game. Being the most freakish athletic PG of all time, former league MVP AND the all time triple double king can't be taken lightly. And PG became his primary position ONCE he hit the league. He was a SG at UCLA.

And when u think of the four defining SCORE FIRST PG's (2010 and going forward from there), u think Steph, Russ, Kyrie, and Dame. Most of the top PG's in the league are score first guys now. Russ was one of the defining guys for that shift. That's why Russ is one of the most polarizing legends of all time. A long run with KD in OKC GETS HIM a ring or two by now. That was ACTUALLY the best situation for him to be seen as a superstar level player AND win a ring. KD the best player on the team. Russ still a superstar himself while being a top 3-5 PG in the league.

But with peak-prime status being a component of GOAT status, his BBIQ at the PG position ACTUALLY hurts his GOAT status. INSTEAD of a lock top 10 GOAT guy, he's seen more widely as a top 11-13 GOAT PG. His solo accolades, numbers, and longevity being great measures up VERY WELL with the guys on this list. The team accolades and BBIQ aspects (that are a determining factor when compared to these guys) bring him back to the pack. IF he played SG, he would be seen in a different light. And a top 10 SG! Because his floor generalship wouldn't be as big of a deal.

[penbeast0]

...IF he played SG, he would be seen in a different light. And a top 10 SG! Because his floor generalship wouldn't be as big of a deal.

Not sure about that. While floor generalship isn't as big of a deal, the ability to shoot is even more key and that's another great weakness for Westbrook. Plus his size is more of an issue defensively.

[bizil]

...IF he played SG, he would be seen in a different light. And a top 10 SG! Because his floor generalship wouldn't be as big of a deal.

Not sure about that. While floor generalship isn't as big of a deal, the ability to shoot is even more key and that's another great weakness for Westbrook. Plus his size is more of an issue defensively.

Fair enough. But guys like a Reggie Miller are a top 10 GOAT SG in many people's eyes. Russ's solo accolades are SUPERIOR to Miller's. Russ's numbers (seasons for season) are MORE IMPRESSIVE. Despite Russ' floor generalship woes, he STILL put up impressive assists numbers. Numbers Miller could never dream of. ACTUALLY Miller is one of the more ONE DIMENSIONAL SG's ever. Average OR BELOW passing, rebounding, and defending his position. Russ for all his flaws is a MULTI DIMENSIONAL PLAYER. As evidenced by his triple double numbers. Biggest issue with Russ is KNOWING what to do when. And Russ is a better floor general then Miller EVER WAS!

AI is a 6'0 SG! Shorter than Russ, YET he dominated. So the HEIGHT PART you might as well ELIMINATE! The Sixers had guys like Snow and Mckee run the PG. So they checked the SG. While AI defended the PG. If Russ was an SG, there's a good chance he would have been paired with a bigger PG. Plus he's so athletic he plays bigger than size. He was NEVER a standout anyway on defense as its.

My POINT WAS Russ's resume is VERY IMPRESSIVE! The reason he was Top 75 of all time. AND rightfully so. Just so happens to be a PG. Where floor generalship is MORE IMPORTANT then any other position. Even though it has become more of a score first position. So Russ's woes in that are are MORE GLARRING since he is a PG. At the SG, his flaws WOULDN'T STOP HIM from being a top 10 GOAT SG. BECAUSE of somebody like Miller who is considered a top 10 GOAT SG. Westbrook's peak-prime SMOKES Reggie's. Miller was TOO one dimensional.

[JRoy]

BTW it's "bad rap".

Bad Wraps are at a Fast Food Joint near you...I am a fan of the Chick fil a wraps though!

No joke need more Chick fil A threads

[homecourtloss]

...IF he played SG, he would be seen in a different light. And a top 10 SG! Because his floor generalship wouldn't be as big of a deal.

Not sure about that. While floor generalship isn't as big of a deal, the ability to shoot is even more key and that's another great weakness for Westbrook. Plus his size is more of an issue defensively.

AI is a 6'0 SG! Shorter than Russ, YET he dominated.

Define “dominated.”

[penbeast0]

Not sure about that. While floor generalship isn't as big of a deal, the ability to shoot is even more key and that's another great weakness for Westbrook. Plus his size is more of an issue defensively.

AI is a 6'0 SG! Shorter than Russ, YET he dominated.

Define “dominated.”

I don't have Iverson in my top 100 of all time (I had Westbrook in it several years ago). He dominated the ball and took all the shots, thus creating huge scoring totals sort of like Pete Maravich in college. He even played on some decent, if not outstanding, teams. But he shot his team out of nearly as many games as he shot them into and I find it harder to build a championship team that has AI being AI than I do for almost any other big name player in history. He was too inefficient, too disruptive of team unity, and with other quality players around him, he would have to change his game to make the team work or he would be like Westbrook this year . . . and he refused to change his role late career when asked.