Shams: Pacers Moving toward Rebuild; Receptive to Trade Talks

[xBulletproof]

I have this horrible, horrible feeling we aren't going to do anything.

There's no rush. This season is toast.

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Not toast enough. This team will win their way to the 10th pick or so. We have the easiest remaining schedule left in the NBA, and once Sabonis ect are healthy, we will win enough to get right out of the way for a top pick.

[Tom White]

Maybe it's PTSD.

Pacers Traumatic Stress Disorder?

[pacers33granger]

I don't see how anything Washington can offer would be intriguing for Domas. Avdija and Rui are alright but I wouldn't consider them to be anything more than solid prospects. I don't see either as anything more than good starter at their best. Kispert I'm even lower on.

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[Topofthekey]

I don't see how anything Washington can offer would be intriguing for Domas. Avdija and Rui are alright but I wouldn't consider them to be anything more than solid prospects. I don't see either as anything more than good starter at their best. Kispert I'm even lower on.

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Yea, with their picks tied up they can't

They'll need to flip their other guys like Kuzma or Gafford or Bryant or Harrell for a good pick or two and package those picks with Hachimura and Avdija

But I don't think those players hold much value, so it's probably not doable

[Scoot McGroot]

I have this horrible, horrible feeling we aren't going to do anything. Maybe it's PTSD.

Maybe Lamb for a TPE and a 2nd or something. I'm pretty much ready to let everyone but Sabonis/Jackson/Duarte to go on somewhere. Mainly because I view Brogdon/Sabonis as a bad pairing. They can't be your best 2 players. Both lack athleticism and length. Neither are shot creators. It's just an awful match for your best 2 players. But I understand Brogdon can't go anywhere yet.

But just start this **** over. I'm ready.

It’s still insanely early, in the grand scheme of trade deadline stuff.

But also, To be fair, a lot of draft time trades happen because of discussions at the trade deadline. Sometimes, teams want to know where the draft picks slot in, or they want to wait until someone’s healthy, or they just want a little more time to “get over” their own guys. I wouldn’t look at the deadline as a sole thing, but rather, consider it as part of the whole with draft time and summer trades when rosters expand. I know, it’s not fun to wait, but sometimes, you just have to not rush.

Problem is I knew this roster was mismatched and not right at the trade deadline last year. I went into last offseason thinking that. Surely they'll do something now. Then we were in the rumors for Ben Simmons and I was like hell yeah, at least we are trying to shake it up. I'm all for it. Yet, here we are all that time later with the same mismatched roster. My patience has been over.

Sure, but trades require two or more teams to tango. Maybe there just wasn’t a match elsewhere that made sense. I’m sure w ecoukd trade any guy on our roster. It just may not make any sense.

[pacers33granger]

I don't see how anything Washington can offer would be intriguing for Domas. Avdija and Rui are alright but I wouldn't consider them to be anything more than solid prospects. I don't see either as anything more than good starter at their best. Kispert I'm even lower on.

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Yea, with their picks tied up they can't

They'll need to flip their other guys like Kuzma or Gafford or Bryant or Harrell for a good pick or two and package those picks with Hachimura and Avdija

But I don't think those players hold much value, so it's probably not doable

All their guys (except Beal) seem to be more in the good, not great category. Which is nearly all of our players. I would hate to stand pat and not consolidate at least a bit. I would hate even more if we took bits and pieces for Domas and compounded the issue.

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[Topofthekey]

I don't see how anything Washington can offer would be intriguing for Domas. Avdija and Rui are alright but I wouldn't consider them to be anything more than solid prospects. I don't see either as anything more than good starter at their best. Kispert I'm even lower on.

Sent from my SM-A716U using RealGM mobile app

Yea, with their picks tied up they can't

They'll need to flip their other guys like Kuzma or Gafford or Bryant or Harrell for a good pick or two and package those picks with Hachimura and Avdija

But I don't think those players hold much value, so it's probably not doable

All their guys (except Beal) seem to be more in the good, not great category. Which is nearly all of our players. I would hate to stand pat and not consolidate at least a bit. I would hate even more if we took bits and pieces for Domas and compounded the issue.

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Correct, that's why my initial thoughts on a trade with them includes their 2022 FRP. The hope is that with their pick and our own, we stand a much greater chance at landing someone like Ivey, for example. I would be quite happy trading Sabonis for Ivey + Hachimura + Avdija

But since that pick can't be traded, it doesn't look like that's possible

[Topofthekey]

Washington can’t deal their 2022 1st. They owe a protected 2023 1st to OKC, so earliest a pick could be conveyed is 2025, but maybe not until 2026 or 2027.

Can NBA teams structure a trade in two parts?

We trade Sabonis for Rui + Deni now. They draft the player we want and trade him to us for a 2RP later

No. No future considerations either. Trade must be spelled out 100% at the time of the trade call. And any trade made must be able to stand on its own, so no “later they trade us a 1st for a 2nd”.

Their picks are tied up because they owe their 2023 (protected) to Thunder, isn't it?

Wouldn't it free up their 2022 pick if they acquired another FRP in 2023?

As I recall, the Stepien rule is satisfied as long as they have a FRP in 2023, doesn't matter whether it is their own

So as long as they acquire another FRP in 2023, they are free to trade their 2022 FRP and 2023 FRP (and even 2024 FRP), because they'll still have another FRP in 2023

Is that right?


Edit:

I found this

Spoiler:

"The Stepien Rule prevents teams from being without first-round picks in consecutive years. The catch is that they need not control their own first-round pick. Any first-rounder satisfies the terms of the Stepien Rule"

Source: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-trade-deadline-2022-how-complex-stepien-rule-decides-which-teams-can-and-cant-deal-first-round-picks/

So in theory if they're able to flip some of their guys for another team's FRP in 2023, they can actually send us their 2022 and 2024 FRPs, isn't that right?

Because they'll still have a FRP in 2023 (another team's, even if their own conveys to Thunder) and their own FRP in 2025

[Scoot McGroot]

Can NBA teams structure a trade in two parts?

We trade Sabonis for Rui + Deni now. They draft the player we want and trade him to us for a 2RP later

No. No future considerations either. Trade must be spelled out 100% at the time of the trade call. And any trade made must be able to stand on its own, so no “later they trade us a 1st for a 2nd”.

Their picks are tied up because they owe their 2023 (protected) to Thunder, isn't it?

Wouldn't it free up their 2022 pick if they acquired another FRP in 2023?

As I recall, the Stepien rule is satisfied as long as they have a FRP in 2023, doesn't matter whether it is their own

So as long as they acquire another FRP in 2023, they are free to trade their 2022 FRP and 2023 FRP (and even 2024 FRP), because they'll still have another FRP in 2023

Is that right?


Edit:

I found this

Spoiler:

"The Stepien Rule prevents teams from being without first-round picks in consecutive years. The catch is that they need not control their own first-round pick. Any first-rounder satisfies the terms of the Stepien Rule"

Source: https://www.cbssports.com/nba/news/nba-trade-deadline-2022-how-complex-stepien-rule-decides-which-teams-can-and-cant-deal-first-round-picks/

So in theory if they're able to flip some of their guys for another team's FRP in 2023, they can actually send us their 2022 and 2024 FRPs, isn't that right?

Because they'll still have a FRP in 2023 (another team's, even if their own conveys to Thunder) and their own FRP in 2025

Mostly correct. It doesn't have to be their own pick, but they do have to have a pick in the draft. The problem is, they need an absolutely UNPROTECTED 1st back from someone else. They have to be able to guarantee 100% they WILL have a pick in this draft. They can't trade for another team's protected 1st, since the season isn't finished and there's always a chance that pick would fall in the protected range, and thus, they wouldn't have a 1st in either this year and possibly next year's draft.

Or same thing for another teams 2023 1st. They have to get a 100% unprotected pick from someone else. Not even top 1 protection if the team is assured of the playoffs. Not even just protected for pick 30 (and the team is a lotto team). No protections at all.

[Topofthekey]

Mostly correct. It doesn't have to be their own pick, but they do have to have a pick in the draft. The problem is, they need an absolutely UNPROTECTED 1st back from someone else. They have to be able to guarantee 100% they WILL have a pick in this draft. They can't trade for another team's protected 1st, since the season isn't finished and there's always a chance that pick would fall in the protected range, and thus, they wouldn't have a 1st in either this year and possibly next year's draft.

Or same thing for another teams 2023 1st. They have to get a 100% unprotected pick from someone else. Not even top 1 protection if the team is assured of the playoffs. Not even just protected for pick 30 (and the team is a lotto team). No protections at all.

Yea, that makes sense

Maybe they can try to flip some of their win now guys to a contender for their unprotected FRP

Contenders like Warriors for example, who might be willing to part with their pick unprotected for some win now pieces

IF they can do that, then Hachimura + Avdija + their 22 & 24 FRPs is a decent offer for Sabonis that I'd strongly consider taking

[Scoot McGroot]

Mostly correct. It doesn't have to be their own pick, but they do have to have a pick in the draft. The problem is, they need an absolutely UNPROTECTED 1st back from someone else. They have to be able to guarantee 100% they WILL have a pick in this draft. They can't trade for another team's protected 1st, since the season isn't finished and there's always a chance that pick would fall in the protected range, and thus, they wouldn't have a 1st in either this year and possibly next year's draft.

Or same thing for another teams 2023 1st. They have to get a 100% unprotected pick from someone else. Not even top 1 protection if the team is assured of the playoffs. Not even just protected for pick 30 (and the team is a lotto team). No protections at all.

Yea, that makes sense

Maybe they can try to flip some of their win now guys to a contender for their unprotected FRP

Contenders like Warriors for example, who might be willing to part with their pick unprotected for some win now pieces

IF they can do that, then Hachimura + Avdija + their 22 & 24 FRPs is a decent offer for Sabonis that I'd strongly consider taking

It’d have to be an unprotected 2023 1st, or else there would be a chance that Washington may not have picks in 2023 and 2024. Even then, very few unprotected picks are ever dealt after an unprotected first ended up being a Kyrie Irving for the Cavs eating Baron Davis’ deal. At this time, of all the 1sts dealt, only picks given by Milwaukee, Brooklyn, the Lakers, and the Clippers have been given unprotected. And those picks were for Jrue Holiday, James Harden, Anthony Davis, and Paul George. No team is likely to give a fully unprotected future first in 2023 for anything Washington has other than Beal, and at that point, Washington won’t be interested in giving picks for Sabonis.

[Tom White]

I just have this gnawing feeling that the team will do nada, nothing, at the deadline. Or they might make a small non-meaningful, nipping at the edges trade of our tenth man for another team's tenth man.

Even worse would be a trade giving up a couple of our young, promising players for another "so-what" end of the rotation, aging player.

Part of it is because of the injuries, yes. But even without those I can't bring myself to believe much of anything would have gotten done.

Here's to hoping I'm wrong......It has happened before.......a few times.......OK, kind of regularly.

[Topofthekey]

It’d have to be an unprotected 2023 1st, or else there would be a chance that Washington may not have picks in 2023 and 2024. Even then, very few unprotected picks are ever dealt after an unprotected first ended up being a Kyrie Irving for the Cavs eating Baron Davis’ deal. At this time, of all the 1sts dealt, only picks given by Milwaukee, Brooklyn, the Lakers, and the Clippers have been given unprotected. And those picks were for Jrue Holiday, James Harden, Anthony Davis, and Paul George. No team is likely to give a fully unprotected future first in 2023 for anything Washington has other than Beal, and at that point, Washington won’t be interested in giving picks for Sabonis.

Didn't we gift the Bucks an unprotected FRP for Brogdon? I don't think there was any protection built into that pick, if I recall correctly

But it's all kind of moot anyway

Wizards are probably better off trading Beal and going with a rebuild anyway

If I were them, I'd rather rebuild with their young guys, instead of gutting their team and trying to placate Beal. Beal looks like he's about to get overpaid, and Wizards suck at the moment

[Tom White]

Wizards are probably better off trading Beal and going with a rebuild anyway

If I were them, I'd rather rebuild with their young guys, instead of gutting their team and trying to placate Beal. Beal looks like he's about to get overpaid, and Wizards suck at the moment

I think Beal is already overpaid. Yes, he is good, but what he brings doesn't live up to that salary.

[Scoot McGroot]

It’d have to be an unprotected 2023 1st, or else there would be a chance that Washington may not have picks in 2023 and 2024. Even then, very few unprotected picks are ever dealt after an unprotected first ended up being a Kyrie Irving for the Cavs eating Baron Davis’ deal. At this time, of all the 1sts dealt, only picks given by Milwaukee, Brooklyn, the Lakers, and the Clippers have been given unprotected. And those picks were for Jrue Holiday, James Harden, Anthony Davis, and Paul George. No team is likely to give a fully unprotected future first in 2023 for anything Washington has other than Beal, and at that point, Washington won’t be interested in giving picks for Sabonis.

Didn't we gift the Bucks an unprotected FRP for Brogdon? I don't think there was any protection built into that pick, if I recall correctly

But it's all kind of moot anyway

Wizards are probably better off trading Beal and going with a rebuild anyway

If I were them, I'd rather rebuild with their young guys, instead of gutting their team and trying to placate Beal. Beal looks like he's about to get overpaid, and Wizards suck at the moment

It was top 20 protected, I believe.

[Scoot McGroot]

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If Sabonis isn’t named an injury replacement, Indy would clear another $1.3m in space under the tax line due to him not earning his all star bonus.

[Wizop]

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[Scoot McGroot]

From Marc Stein:

We've discussed here more than once that the Pacers have established a high bar for interested teams to reach if they wish to acquire Sabonis, Myles Turner or Caris LeVert. One illustration of how highly Indiana rates those players: Pacers coach Rick Carlisle, on a recent trip to Dallas, referred to Turner as "the best on the planet at protecting the rim." When I checked in Friday morning on the prospect of Turner being moved between now and the deadline while he’s still recovering from a foot injury, I was told that it remains a coinflip at this stage.

[Pacers Forever]

In an ESPN article Jamal Collier said his 1 bold prediction is that Myles Turner is traded to the Warriors.
With rookies Kuminga, Moody, and players stepping up like Porter, Bjelica, Poole, Payton II, and so on they’re loaded with decent talent outside of the starters.

I know they’ve got Looney as a big man currently filling in.
Since Wiseman had a second surgery delaying his progress, and Draymond Green is injured will the Warriors become more aggressive/desperate to deal for Turner.

Would the Pacers be able to get a good package now as the Warriors are moving towards a run at a title ? This assumes that Warriors won’t let go of Wiggins.

A lot of their bench are signed cheap currently and are free agents next year. Poole has a team option and of course the two rookies have 3 more years.

In a side note it’s amazing how well their bench plays and I’ve got to believe it’s Kerr’s system and coaching.

[Wizop]

In an ESPN article Jamal Collier said his 1 bold prediction is that Myles Turner is traded to the Warriors.

Wiseman and Kuminga for Turner gets by the checker. replacing Kuminga with Moody fails. I don't see another 2 team deal that is legal. it might take a third team wanting Wiseman to work for us.