Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap

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bizil
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Re: Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap 

Post#41 » by bizil » Thu Feb 3, 2022 1:25 pm

homecourtloss wrote:
bizil wrote:
penbeast0 wrote:
Not sure about that. While floor generalship isn't as big of a deal, the ability to shoot is even more key and that's another great weakness for Westbrook. Plus his size is more of an issue defensively.


AI is a 6'0 SG! Shorter than Russ, YET he dominated.


Define “dominated.”


By dominated, put together such a great career he's HANDS DOWN a top 10 GOAT SG. I understand AI efficiency wasn't elite. BUT fact remains he was an MVP, 2 All Star Game MVP, four time scoring champ, 11 time All Star, and 7 time All NBA. 1st ballot HOF And top 75 all time. Larry Brown made a smart move by moving AI to the SG. That's what I mean by dominated. LEGIT put together such a great career he's a top 10 GOAT SG. GOAT status is your ENTIRE resume! And AI's resume DICTATES top 10 GOAT status. And when compared to other SG's, he was one of better passing SG's as well.

The other poster said if Westbrook moved to SG, his height would be an issue. My point was AI played the SG at 6'0. And put together a great career.
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Re: Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap 

Post#42 » by bizil » Thu Feb 3, 2022 1:37 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
bizil wrote:
AI is a 6'0 SG! Shorter than Russ, YET he dominated.


Define “dominated.”


I don't have Iverson in my top 100 of all time (I had Westbrook in it several years ago). He dominated the ball and took all the shots, thus creating huge scoring totals sort of like Pete Maravich in college. He even played on some decent, if not outstanding, teams. But he shot his team out of nearly as many games as he shot them into and I find it harder to build a championship team that has AI being AI than I do for almost any other big name player in history. He was too inefficient, too disruptive of team unity, and with other quality players around him, he would have to change his game to make the team work or he would be like Westbrook this year . . . and he refused to change his role late career when asked.


AI NOT in your top 100 all time. LMAO!!! Despite his inefficiency, u GOTTA give the man props for his career resume. He was a LOCK top 75 of all time guy. And a 1st ballot HOFer. SO ISN'T he top 100 of all time?? 11 time All Star, 7 time All NBA, four scoring titles, MVP of the league, two time All Star game MVP. And on Philly, Larry Brown WAS THE ONE who moved him to SG. And encouraged AI to get up a ton of shots. Due to lack of scoring help. The fact that Sixers team made the Finals SAYS A LOT!!

On the Sixers, name the 2nd best scorer AI played with for a significant amount of time?? Webber wasn't there long. And a bit past his prime. Mutumbo wasn't an elite scorer. And late in AI's career when he was asked to change his game (Detroit and Memphis), he was ALREADY past his prime. In Denver, Melo was the leading scorers on those teams. And AI shot the best FG% of his career with the Nuggets. 46% isn't a great FG%. BUT it isn't bad either. I
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Re: Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap 

Post#43 » by feyki » Thu Feb 3, 2022 1:46 pm

penbeast0 wrote:
homecourtloss wrote:
bizil wrote:
AI is a 6'0 SG! Shorter than Russ, YET he dominated.


Define “dominated.”


I don't have Iverson in my top 100 of all time (I had Westbrook in it several years ago). He dominated the ball and took all the shots, thus creating huge scoring totals sort of like Pete Maravich in college. He even played on some decent, if not outstanding, teams. But he shot his team out of nearly as many games as he shot them into and I find it harder to build a championship team that has AI being AI than I do for almost any other big name player in history. He was too inefficient, too disruptive of team unity, and with other quality players around him, he would have to change his game to make the team work or he would be like Westbrook this year . . . and he refused to change his role late career when asked.


Too inefficient is not Maravich's -16 TSAdded per year for 6 consecutive years or Ivy's -20 per year for 8 consecutive years. That's about the less than quarter SRS minus per game while these players adding huge volume with carrying more than %50 of their teams offensive load.

You're thinking with euroleague mentality, but the creation is the most important factor in the basketball. There's no way you can win without create anything.
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Re: Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap 

Post#44 » by No-more-rings » Thu Feb 3, 2022 3:06 pm

70sFan wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:
70sFan wrote:Do you really think that Westbrook inside top 10 is a must-have? I find it strange to be honest.

Top 10 of what?

Top 50, that's a typo, sorry...

Well putting biases and narrative type stuff aside here...

Westbrook:

NBA MVP(deserved more or less)
9 time all star(at least 7 deserved)
2 all nba 1st team(deserved)
5 time second team
2 time scoring champion
3 time assist leader

Prime or near prime numbers of this:

2011-2018: 25/7.1/8.6 25.9 PER 6.4 BPM

Playoff averages: 2011-2018: 25.9/7/7.9 23.6 PER 5.5 BPM

In that span he made a finals as the 2nd option(2012), a WCF as arguably the best performer on the team(2014), and went up 3-1 over the 73 win warriors being the co-best player on that team. Was the 2nd best player on a team that won 60 games and a 9.15 SRS(best in the league)

For many years the most athletic guard in the league, arguably the best driver among guards between 2013-2017, one of the best play-makers in the league between 2016-2018, probably only behind Lebron, Harden, Cp3 and Curry.

Yeah, sure sounds like a top 50 player to me.

What's the arguments against it besides narratives such as "Eh Westbrook is dumb" or "he declined a lot after 2017" or "Eh player X and Z are smarter and better shooters"
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Re: Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap 

Post#45 » by Im Your Father » Thu Feb 3, 2022 3:22 pm

No-more-rings wrote:
70sFan wrote:
No-more-rings wrote:Top 10 of what?

Top 50, that's a typo, sorry...

Well putting biases and narrative type stuff aside here...

Westbrook:

NBA MVP(deserved more or less)
9 time all star(at least 7 deserved)
2 all nba 1st team(deserved)
5 time second team
2 time scoring champion
3 time assist leader

Prime or near prime numbers of this:

2011-2018: 25/7.1/8.6 25.9 PER 6.4 BPM

Playoff averages: 2011-2018: 25.9/7/7.9 23.6 PER 5.5 BPM

In that span he made a finals as the 2nd option(2012), a WCF as arguably the best performer on the team(2014), and went up 3-1 over the 73 win warriors being the co-best player on that team. Was the 2nd best player on a team that won 60 games and a 9.15 SRS(best in the league)

For many years the most athletic guard in the league, arguably the best driver among guards between 2013-2017, one of the best play-makers in the league between 2016-2018, probably only behind Lebron, Harden, Cp3 and Curry.

Yeah, sure sounds like a top 50 player to me.

What's the arguments against it besides narratives such as "Eh Westbrook is dumb" or "he declined a lot after 2017" or "Eh player X and Z are smarter and better shooters"


I understand arguments like this and to a certain extent I agree with them.

That being said, it's difficult for me to even conceive of a star that would be a better fit with Russ other than KD.

So it's clear that it's obviously not *impossible* to build a contender with RW, and I get that, but to me those 2012, 2014 and 2016 Thunder teams seem to be about as good of circumstances as your could reasonably hope for when building around him.
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Re: Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap 

Post#46 » by No-more-rings » Thu Feb 3, 2022 4:42 pm

Im Your Father wrote:
I understand arguments like this and to a certain extent I agree with them.

That being said, it's difficult for me to even conceive of a star that would be a better fit with Russ other than KD.

So it's clear that it's obviously not *impossible* to build a contender with RW, and I get that, but to me those 2012, 2014 and 2016 Thunder teams seem to be about as good of circumstances as your could reasonably hope for when building around him.

Eh not really, i mean in 2012 the star core was just really young and they went against peak Lebron. Westbrook played pretty decent, but Harden was a complete no show. KD was inconsistent.

I think generally speaking in 2014 and 2016, they just lost to better teams and i mean in 2014 and 2016 those teams definitely lacked spacing relatively speaking.

They were really good supporting casts but i certainly wouldn't call it a perfect scenario for him. I mean there's a lot of players who had really good circumstances and still didn't win one, so i don't think that particular point is as big of a deal.
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Re: Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap 

Post#47 » by wutevahung » Thu Feb 3, 2022 7:15 pm

Anyone who says he is a terrible teammate hasn't actually looked at what most of his teammates said about him, and the only negative one I could think of was KD, but even that was less of "I want to play in the GSW system", and not "I don't want to play with Russ".

I think Westbrook, despite his flaws, was an all NBA impact player during his peaks on a contending team, and Thunder not getting a chip has more to do with lucks (stuffs like injuries and the rise of Golden State, and Klay getting hot AF in game 6). A lot of players don't get chips, it doesn't have to be one person's fault. He also adjusts to others a lot more what people credit him for, but his game is just best suited as a floor raiser, and not a ceiling raiser, especially post peak.

so some of the criticisms are indeed unfair, but some of the criticisms are also extremely fair, and he is still getting some "good raps" from lots of his peers, like JJ Redick still said on his podcast that he thinks Westbrook is still really talented, like how he is still getting paid and treated like a first team NBA player, so at the end it all balance out, and that's life. You get blame for some stuffs that aren't your fault, and you get credits for the stuffs you deserve, and sometimes you get undeserved credits.
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Re: Russell Westbrook is getting a bad wrap 

Post#48 » by bizil » Thu Feb 3, 2022 7:34 pm

wutevahung wrote:Anyone who says he is a terrible teammate hasn't actually looked at what most of his teammates said about him, and the only negative one I could think of was KD, but even that was less of "I want to play in the GSW system", and not "I don't want to play with Russ".

I think Westbrook, despite his flaws, was an all NBA impact player during his peaks on a contending team, and Thunder not getting a chip has more to do with lucks (stuffs like injuries and the rise of Golden State, and Klay getting hot AF in game 6). A lot of players don't get chips, it doesn't have to be one person's fault. He also adjusts to others a lot more what people credit him for, but his game is just best suited as a floor raiser, and not a ceiling raiser, especially post peak.

so some of the criticisms are indeed unfair, but some of the criticisms are also extremely fair, and he is still getting some "good raps" from lots of his peers, like JJ Redick still said on his podcast that he thinks Westbrook is still really talented, like how he is still getting paid and treated like a first team NBA player, so at the end it all balance out, and that's life. You get blame for some stuffs that aren't your fault, and you get credits for the stuffs you deserve, and sometimes you get undeserved credits.


Great post! And NO DOUBT Russ is an all time great. His resume speaks for itself. Since's he's a PG, there is a HUGE PREMIUM on dimes and floor generalship. In terms of dimes, NUMBERS WISE he's one of the best of all time. But his FLOOR GENERALSHIP is the issue. IF KD stays in OKC , they likely win a ring or two. If Russ ALSO had rings in his pocket at this point, he would WIDELY be seen as a top 10 PG of all time. Hell he's on that level now or damn close to it. And Russ HAS NO PROBLEM scaling back his scoring when needed. I'll give him that. He's NOT a selfish player at all. Just isn't the floor general a CP3, Magic, Isiah, Nash, Kidd, etc. is/was. And we haven't gotten a long extended look with Bron-AD-Russ all together on the court.

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