2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

[Alatan]

Hmmm... I guess Murray and MPJ aren't very good then right? Both are better than Simmons and Tobias.

MPJ for Harris straight up. I bet you no sane or even insane GM would do it.

Healthy MPJ???? Are you serious? Morey would drive Harris to the airport.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

Even healthy he is comparable to Tobias but a healthy MPJ doesnt exist.

[eyeatoma]

MPJ for Harris straight up. I bet you no sane or even insane GM would do it.

Healthy MPJ???? Are you serious? Morey would drive Harris to the airport.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

Even healthy he is comparable to Tobias but a healthy MPJ doesnt exist.

Last year's MPJ who got a Max contract is far better than Tobias, and Morey 100% would have done that trade.

[Alatan]

Healthy MPJ???? Are you serious? Morey would drive Harris to the airport.

Sent from my SM-G998B using Tapatalk

Even healthy he is comparable to Tobias but a healthy MPJ doesnt exist.

Last year's MPJ who got a Max contract is far better than Tobias, and Morey 100% would have done that trade.

Last years stats

MPJ: 19 ppg 7.3 rpg 1.1 ast 0.9 bpg 0.7 spg 2,1 pf 1.3 to(7.3-13.4 54.2% fg% 2.8-6.3 44.5% 3% 1.7-2.2 79.1% ft% 66.3 TS% assisted on 79.2% of his shots -0,9 DBPM 112 DefRating)
TH: 19.5 ppg 6.8 rpg 3.5 ast 0.8 bpg 0.9 spg 1.9 pf 1.7 to( 7.6-14.9 51.2 fg% 1.3-3.4 39.4% 3% 2.9-3.3 89.2% ft% 59.7 TS% assisted on 43.8% of his shots 0,8 DBPM 108 DefRating)

Healthy MPJ is a more efficient shooter but he almost exclusively takes shots he himself didnt create. As someone who watched a lot of Nuggets i can tell you that the healthy MPJ couldnt create or dribble to save his life.
Tobias can at least create his own offense.

They are both ass on defense but MPJ is truly terrible.

[eyeatoma]

Even healthy he is comparable to Tobias but a healthy MPJ doesnt exist.

Last year's MPJ who got a Max contract is far better than Tobias, and Morey 100% would have done that trade.

Last years stats

MPJ: 19 ppg 7.3 rpg 1.1 ast 0.9 bpg 0.7 spg 2,1 pf 1.3 to(7.3-13.4 54.2% fg% 2.8-6.3 44.5% 3% 1.7-2.2 79.1% ft% 66.3 TS% assisted on 79.2% of his shots -0,9 DBPM 112 DefRating)
TH: 19.5 ppg 6.8 rpg 3.5 ast 0.8 bpg 0.9 spg 1.9 pf 1.7 to( 7.6-14.9 51.2 fg% 1.3-3.4 39.4% 3% 2.9-3.3 89.2% ft% 59.7 TS% assisted on 43.8% of his shots 0,8 DBPM 108 DefRating)

Healthy MPJ is a more efficient shooter but he almost exclusively takes shots he himself didnt create. As someone who watched a lot of Nuggets i can tell you that the healthy MPJ couldnt create or dribble to save his life.
Tobias can at least create his own offense.

They are both ass on defense but MPJ is truly terrible.

Morey would still take him.

[BoatsNZones]

Looking at some of the better public advanced impact stats, this is where the betting favorites currently rank:

RAPTOR WAR: https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/nba-player-ratings/
Jokic (1)
Curry (2)
Giannis (6)
Embiid (8)

VORP: https://www.basketball-reference.com/leaders/vorp_top_10.html
Jokic (1)
Giannis (2)
Embiid (3)
Curry (4)

LEBRON (similar to a mesh of RPM/PIPM): https://www.bball-index.com/2021-22-lebron-data/
Jokic (1)
Embiid (2)
Giannis (4)
Curry (5)

EPM: https://dunksandthrees.com/epm
Jokic (1)
Curry (2)
Giannis (4)
Embiid (5)

Pure +/- for qualified players: https://www.nba.com/stats/players/traditional/?sort=PLUS_MINUS&dir=-1
Curry (1)
Jokic (4)
Giannis (10)
Embiid (19)

Overall: Jokic 1 - Curry 2 - Giannis 3 - Embiid 4

Worth noting Gobert ranks extremely high in all of the above other than VORP, and has underrated impact by the public as per usual (also a ridiculously unfair playoff rep, but that's for another day). He's the only other player who consistently comes up among the top of these lists; Booker/CP/Morant, etc wouldn't fall in the top 10.

[Cubbies2120]

Last year's MPJ who got a Max contract is far better than Tobias, and Morey 100% would have done that trade.

Last years stats

MPJ: 19 ppg 7.3 rpg 1.1 ast 0.9 bpg 0.7 spg 2,1 pf 1.3 to(7.3-13.4 54.2% fg% 2.8-6.3 44.5% 3% 1.7-2.2 79.1% ft% 66.3 TS% assisted on 79.2% of his shots -0,9 DBPM 112 DefRating)
TH: 19.5 ppg 6.8 rpg 3.5 ast 0.8 bpg 0.9 spg 1.9 pf 1.7 to( 7.6-14.9 51.2 fg% 1.3-3.4 39.4% 3% 2.9-3.3 89.2% ft% 59.7 TS% assisted on 43.8% of his shots 0,8 DBPM 108 DefRating)

Healthy MPJ is a more efficient shooter but he almost exclusively takes shots he himself didnt create. As someone who watched a lot of Nuggets i can tell you that the healthy MPJ couldnt create or dribble to save his life.
Tobias can at least create his own offense.

They are both ass on defense but MPJ is truly terrible.

Morey would still take him.

That just confirms what people already suspected of Morey: he blows as a GM

[BelgradeNugget]

I'll preface this by saying Jokic would be my MVP vote as of now, but no, let's please just stop with the "he's carrying a roster of bench guys" thing. It's such an overplayed and inaccurate narrative. Aaron Gordon has been a starter his entire career. Will Barton has been a starter on this same Denver team for the past 4-5 seasons, and his lone season on the bench since coming over from Portland, he was a legit 6th Man of the Year candidate. Monte Morris is one of the best back-up PG's in the league and would probably start for a lot of teams if he wasn't stuck behind Jamal Murray for his entire career thus far. Jeff Green literally started for a championship contending Nets team last year. All of these guys are quality to above-average starting players in this league, and have been for a while. I actually agree with Malone's strategy (playing Jokic as much as they can with the starters then hoping your bench unit can just survive), but it also perfectly illustrates why on/off numbers need context behind them.

I believe you’re a Bucks fan, right? Would any of those guys you mentioned that start on Denver start on the Bucks? Aside from Gordon, do any of them start on the 76ers? Who does Golden State bench for those guys?

It’s a glorified bench unit masquerading as a group of starters. It’d be one heck of a bench unit but their ceiling as starters is quite low.

As a Nuggets fan I would say you both have a point. Nuggets team is NOT Jokic + bunch of g-league players. Barton and AG are very good role players, should have been 4/5 best Nuggets starters. They play out of their role, giving their max. Problem with Barton is he is injury prone, often playing through injuries, missed some games this year due to non covid illness multiple times, which affected his play in a number of games.
About comparation to other teams I wouldn't say that Portis and Allen are better then Barton and AG. The question is where would the Bucks be with Portis and Allen as their 2nd and 3rd best players? Morris is one of the best backup PG, he could have started for some teams, although not good ones. Green started some games for Nets last year, and they replaced him with Millsap?!? So they are not bunch of g-leaguers, they are solid players playing out of their roles and comfort zones, so are their results - up and down.

[eyeatoma]

Well hell has frozen over...

Joel Embiid is at the top of the NBA.com MVP Ladder...

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-4-edition

[Eyeamok]

Well hell has frozen over...

Joel Embiid is at the top of the NBA.com MVP Ladder...

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-4-edition

As it should be !

[Hussien Fatal]

Well hell has frozen over...

Joel Embiid is at the top of the NBA.com MVP Ladder...

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-4-edition

Me and you have been right about this the entire time, Embiid is the best center in the game. And now he is finally getting the recognition he deserves as potentially the best player in the league.

[Richard Miller]

Healthy MPJ is a more efficient shooter but he almost exclusively takes shots he himself didnt create. As someone who watched a lot of Nuggets i can tell you that the healthy MPJ couldnt create or dribble to save his life.
Tobias can at least create his own offense.

They are both ass on defense but MPJ is truly terrible.

Who cares that he didn't create? Jokic creating for MPJ is leaps and bounds above Tobias creating for himself. Not to mention that MPJ is 6 years younger and can still improve while Tobias is what he is.

[Alatan]

Healthy MPJ is a more efficient shooter but he almost exclusively takes shots he himself didnt create. As someone who watched a lot of Nuggets i can tell you that the healthy MPJ couldnt create or dribble to save his life.
Tobias can at least create his own offense.

They are both ass on defense but MPJ is truly terrible.

Who cares that he didn't create? Jokic creating for MPJ is leaps and bounds above Tobias creating for himself. Not to mention that MPJ is 6 years younger and can still improve while Tobias is what he is.

For one I care, and so should you. A guy that completely relies on other to create for him and sucks on D is not a max player. Never was, never will be. Even healthy, witch is another improbability at best.

MPJ might be 6 years younger but he is 3 spine surgeries ahead. Just stop defending that ridiculous contract and terrible player.

Give me the overpaid Harris instead of a "healthy" MPJ any time any place.

[Richard Miller]

Healthy MPJ is a more efficient shooter but he almost exclusively takes shots he himself didnt create. As someone who watched a lot of Nuggets i can tell you that the healthy MPJ couldnt create or dribble to save his life.
Tobias can at least create his own offense.

They are both ass on defense but MPJ is truly terrible.

Who cares that he didn't create? Jokic creating for MPJ is leaps and bounds above Tobias creating for himself. Not to mention that MPJ is 6 years younger and can still improve while Tobias is what he is.

For one I care, and so should you. A guy that completely relies on other to create for him and sucks on D is not a max player. Never was, never will be. Even healthy, witch is another improbability at best.

Health is the only thing holding him back. If healthy no one would take Toby over him, that's a no-brainer

[moderndarwin]

It’s clear cut Steph again right?

[mediocrityrules]

It’s clear cut Steph again right?

Gravity always wins in the end

[Cubbies2120]

Well hell has frozen over...

Joel Embiid is at the top of the NBA.com MVP Ladder...

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-4-edition

Their argument for it is that they lost to the Jazz (missing Gobert, Ingles, Mitchell), while Jokic didn't play.

Meanwhile, Embiid sat out against the 3rd best team in the league, and the Sixers won.

Regardless of what you think of either player, their logic for moving him up is flawed.

Since their last MVP ladder:
Jokic leads Nuggets to 36 point blowout of Bucks with 18/15/10 on 9 shots.
Jokic loses to 8 seed Wolves with 21/16/8 on 50%
Jokic sits out against Jazz, Nuggets lose

Embiid puts up 36/12/6 in 2 point win vs. Kings
Embiid sits out against 3rd best team in the league and Sixers win
Embiid puts up 27/14/6 in a loss to the 11th best team in the East missing their best player

I'm confused how that week puts Embiid over Jokic. If you were arguing he should have been ahead before during his hot two week period, I'd understand, but they're doing this on a week over week basis.

[eyeatoma]

Well hell has frozen over...

Joel Embiid is at the top of the NBA.com MVP Ladder...

https://www.nba.com/news/kia-mvp-ladder-feb-4-edition

Me and you have been right about this the entire time, Embiid is the best center in the game. And now he is finally getting the recognition he deserves as potentially the best player in the league.

Haha true

[ty 4191]

If you were arguing he should have been ahead before during his hot two week period, I'd understand, but they're doing this on a week over week basis.

Among other metrics, Jokic currently leads Embiid, by either a (very) substantial or modest amount this year in:

--WS
--WS/48
--VORP
--BPM
--EPM
--LEBRON
--RAPTOR
--PIE

When considering team strength....

Pettit (56') Kareem (76') played on teams that didn't make the playoffs and still won MVPs. That, however, when when the players, not the media, still voted on who was MVP (56'-79').

The only other MVP winners to play for a team that won fewer than 60% of its regular season games are (they still qualified for the playoffs):

--Moses Malone twice for Houston Rockets, in 1978-79 (47–35, .573) and 1981-82 (46–36, .561).

--Bob McAdoo for Buffalo Braves, in 1974–75 (49–33, .598).

--Russell Westbook for the 2016-2017 Oklahoma City Thunder (47-35, .573).

Of the 66 MVPs to date (from 1955-56 to 2020-2021):

--41 played for the team with that year’s best regular season record.

--25 of them won that season’s championship.

I love to think that the voters have evolved to a point, wherein, in 2022, they would deem- by consensus- that a player on a 6th place team could/would by the most valuable player in the NBA.

I don't see how anyone else this year, overall, is the Most Valuable Player.

[eyeatoma]

Read on Twitter

Blargh none of this matters, VORP, GLORP, CARP, SCARP for dayz!

[ty 4191]

Blargh none of this matters, VORP, GLORP, CARP, SCARP for dayz!

Of course you're going to mock what you don't understand, and don't care to even bother trying to comprehend.

Embiid has missed 311 team games in his career. That's 3.8 full seasons' worth of missed games. Absolutely ridiculous and almost unbelievably bad.

Jokic has missed 26 games in his entire career.