Trade Talk (Part Nine) (READ FIRST POST)

[shrink]

Interesting theory I believe in that Doogie interview: Is there any (significant) move you can make now that can't wait until the offseason? Most moves the team could make now will be available to them over the summer. Most of the roster's relative trade value is lower than what we thought it would be coming into the season. So why force a trade? Let the values come back to the surface, as we've seen with Prince recently for example.

You won't have as much salary fillers in a trade. Beverley/Prince/Okogie/Layman would all expire and the only ballast you have is Beasley

You don't necessarily need as much salary filler when the salary cap is $121 million and you have $106 million committed to 10 players.

Kudos - Klomp is all over the news about the $2 mil rise in the cap that came out yesterday!

But we’re going to be an over-the-cap team. We’re at $106, then we’ll either have Smart on the books or extend Beverley, we may bring back Prince, we’ll want to use our MLE of about $10 mil, and fill the roster. But that would leave us with a payroll we’ll short of the lux, and we could be competing with teams with $20 mil more in payroll on their roster.

Many teams aim to be just under the lux, to get the most talent they can afford on their roster. Some even use expirings to trade for decent two year deals, just to have matching salary next year. Many wondered why young Houston would trade for the 29 year old Theis — they may have just wanted matching salary on a tradeable deal. We may see MIN trade Layman and even Okogie for a player on a two year deal.

[Note30]

Would this be bad or good? Bertans and Kispert for Beasley and Okogie? I

That bertans contract is disgusting. I'd rather have Beasley.

Also he's playing sooo poorly. I'd rather keep who we have.

Kispert Def isn't enough incentive. Maybe if we got a 1st or Kuzma and Gafford for Layman and Mclaughlin as well.

[Folklore]

I still like Alec Burks more than any other of the reasonable wing/guards being mentioned, in particular Gordon

Burks
Noel
Arcidiacono (roster spot matching)

Okogie
Beasley
Reid

Wolves go from $875K from tax line to $650K from tax line

Burks catch/shoot last 4 seasons
21-22 44.9% (34% of his shot attempts were catch/shoot)
20-21 38.2% (30% of shot attempts)
19-20 37.7% (19% of shot attempts)
18-19 40.9% (22% of shot attempts)

Malik Beasley
35.6% (60% of shot attempts)
41.3% (40% of shot attempts)
40.5% (38% of shot attempts)
42.2% (46% of shot attempts)

Gordon
44% (30% of shots)
33% (39% of shots)
28% (46% of shots)
38% (48% of shots)

Burks in past four seasons has about 1000 3pt attempts at 39.5%, Malik is 39.1% on about 1400 attempts, and Burks has taken pretty significantly higher % of his attempts not in catch/shoot. Plus Burks can handle the ball, be a play maker, rebounds decently. Neither is much of a defender but Burks at least has some size, not much smaller than ANT.

Noel is legit defensive/paint presence and is as mobile as any 7fter. Pretty much a zero offensively, but is at least an above the rim/lob threat as a screener, which Wolves have never really had (KAT, Dien, Reid, Gibson, Pek, Big Al)

Burks
Nowell
JMD
Prince
Noel

I really like having the Burks/Nowell pairing as two combo guards who can score, run an offense. The team falls apart when Russell doesn't play not because he's been so great but because the lack of creation/ball handling becomes overwhelming. Part of that early in season was JMAC struggling and Nowell not getting PT over guys like Okogie, but Burks can step into that role when needed while Beasley could not.

I'd settle for Randle, Burks and Noel for the likes of Prince, Beasley, and Okogie and Reid. Give them couple 2nds if we have to. Randle and Noel would solve our interior d and rebounding issue. Noel who provides the interior d ofcuz. Though I think Randle can be an avg defender.

Randle and Towns on the same team? they'd complain themselves out of the game and help the other team beat ours every game. ANT would start to act more like them...even Jaden. I just watched Randle get a tech from the bench... keep him and his contract away.

[winforlose]

I still like Alec Burks more than any other of the reasonable wing/guards being mentioned, in particular Gordon

Burks
Noel
Arcidiacono (roster spot matching)

Okogie
Beasley
Reid

Wolves go from $875K from tax line to $650K from tax line

Burks catch/shoot last 4 seasons
21-22 44.9% (34% of his shot attempts were catch/shoot)
20-21 38.2% (30% of shot attempts)
19-20 37.7% (19% of shot attempts)
18-19 40.9% (22% of shot attempts)

Malik Beasley
35.6% (60% of shot attempts)
41.3% (40% of shot attempts)
40.5% (38% of shot attempts)
42.2% (46% of shot attempts)

Gordon
44% (30% of shots)
33% (39% of shots)
28% (46% of shots)
38% (48% of shots)

Burks in past four seasons has about 1000 3pt attempts at 39.5%, Malik is 39.1% on about 1400 attempts, and Burks has taken pretty significantly higher % of his attempts not in catch/shoot. Plus Burks can handle the ball, be a play maker, rebounds decently. Neither is much of a defender but Burks at least has some size, not much smaller than ANT.

Noel is legit defensive/paint presence and is as mobile as any 7fter. Pretty much a zero offensively, but is at least an above the rim/lob threat as a screener, which Wolves have never really had (KAT, Dien, Reid, Gibson, Pek, Big Al)

Burks
Nowell
JMD
Prince
Noel

I really like having the Burks/Nowell pairing as two combo guards who can score, run an offense. The team falls apart when Russell doesn't play not because he's been so great but because the lack of creation/ball handling becomes overwhelming. Part of that early in season was JMAC struggling and Nowell not getting PT over guys like Okogie, but Burks can step into that role when needed while Beasley could not.

I'd settle for Randle, Burks and Noel for the likes of Prince, Beasley, and Okogie and Reid. Give them couple 2nds if we have to. Randle and Noel would solve our interior d and rebounding issue. Noel who provides the interior d ofcuz. Though I think Randle can be an avg defender.

Randle and Towns on the same team? they'd complain themselves out of the game and help the other team beat ours every game. ANT would start to act more like them...even Jaden. I just watched Randle get a tech from the bench... keep him and his contract away.

Does this mean you would pass on Jokic or Doncic? They complain as much as anyone, in fact Jim Pete says they are both bigger whiners than KAT, would you pass on them? Also, if you think Ant and MCD aren’t strong enough men to make their own decisions about complaining than you must really think they are pathetic on a personal level.

[IceManBK1]

I'd settle for Randle, Burks and Noel for the likes of Prince, Beasley, and Okogie and Reid. Give them couple 2nds if we have to. Randle and Noel would solve our interior d and rebounding issue. Noel who provides the interior d ofcuz. Though I think Randle can be an avg defender.

Randle and Towns on the same team? they'd complain themselves out of the game and help the other team beat ours every game. ANT would start to act more like them...even Jaden. I just watched Randle get a tech from the bench... keep him and his contract away.

Does this mean you would pass on Jokic or Doncic? They complain as much as anyone, in fact Jim Pete says they are both bigger whiners than KAT, would you pass on them? Also, if you think Ant and MCD aren’t strong enough men to make their own decisions about complaining than you must really think they are pathetic on a personal level.

They all whine... Though randle isn't great defender. I can he can hold his own against any elite pfs offensively. He and Towns can cause a lot of match-up issue for other teams bigs. I know he sets good picks and great at kicking out to shooters. Underrated passer and ball handler for a guy his size.

[moss_is_1]

I'd settle for Randle, Burks and Noel for the likes of Prince, Beasley, and Okogie and Reid. Give them couple 2nds if we have to. Randle and Noel would solve our interior d and rebounding issue. Noel who provides the interior d ofcuz. Though I think Randle can be an avg defender.

Randle and Towns on the same team? they'd complain themselves out of the game and help the other team beat ours every game. ANT would start to act more like them...even Jaden. I just watched Randle get a tech from the bench... keep him and his contract away.

Does this mean you would pass on Jokic or Doncic? They complain as much as anyone, in fact Jim Pete says they are both bigger whiners than KAT, would you pass on them? Also, if you think Ant and MCD aren’t strong enough men to make their own decisions about complaining than you must really think they are pathetic on a personal level.

Randle isn't in the same stratosphere as Jokic or Doncic in terms of impact. You put up with it when you have a superstar, Randle is a fringe all-star level player.

[winforlose]

Randle and Towns on the same team? they'd complain themselves out of the game and help the other team beat ours every game. ANT would start to act more like them...even Jaden. I just watched Randle get a tech from the bench... keep him and his contract away.

Does this mean you would pass on Jokic or Doncic? They complain as much as anyone, in fact Jim Pete says they are both bigger whiners than KAT, would you pass on them? Also, if you think Ant and MCD aren’t strong enough men to make their own decisions about complaining than you must really think they are pathetic on a personal level.

Randle isn't in the same stratosphere as Jokic or Doncic in terms of impact. You put up with it when you have a superstar, Randle is a fringe all-star level player.

That is the wrong way to look at it. Talent level is only one part of the equation. Fit is another. Also think about impact. Good players can have bad games, bad players can absolutely take over games. Do you tolerate a bad player on a good night? What about the best available PF for our budget? If he gets us 5 extra wins or even 3 extra wins you put up with it. Every win matters.

[Folklore]

I'd settle for Randle, Burks and Noel for the likes of Prince, Beasley, and Okogie and Reid. Give them couple 2nds if we have to. Randle and Noel would solve our interior d and rebounding issue. Noel who provides the interior d ofcuz. Though I think Randle can be an avg defender.

Randle and Towns on the same team? they'd complain themselves out of the game and help the other team beat ours every game. ANT would start to act more like them...even Jaden. I just watched Randle get a tech from the bench... keep him and his contract away.

Does this mean you would pass on Jokic or Doncic? They complain as much as anyone, in fact Jim Pete says they are both bigger whiners than KAT, would you pass on them? Also, if you think Ant and MCD aren’t strong enough men to make their own decisions about complaining than you must really think they are pathetic on a personal level.

There's trying to get your point across by yelling then there's b3tching like a baby. ANT and MCD are very young so of course theyll take notes from the OG's around them. if that wasn't the case vets wouldn't be so important. or do you think KAT wouldn't carry himself different if KG has a Haslem ole here?

[moss_is_1]

That is the wrong way to look at it. Talent level is only one part of the equation. Fit is another. Also think about impact. Good players can have bad games, bad players can absolutely take over games. Do you tolerate a bad player on a good night? What about the best available PF for our budget? If he gets us 5 extra wins or even 3 extra wins you put up with it. Every win matters.

Personally, I don't think Randle helps us much, if at all. His best trait is scoring and having the ball in his hands, we have Ant, Kat, and Dlo already in those roles. Then you put Vando who has been fantastic this season, rebounding and defending, onto the bench of minimize the impact he's making for us. Randle makes way too much for me to have any interest in trading for him, and for what role he offers.

[Neeva]

Randle and Towns on the same team? they'd complain themselves out of the game and help the other team beat ours every game. ANT would start to act more like them...even Jaden. I just watched Randle get a tech from the bench... keep him and his contract away.

Does this mean you would pass on Jokic or Doncic? They complain as much as anyone, in fact Jim Pete says they are both bigger whiners than KAT, would you pass on them? Also, if you think Ant and MCD aren’t strong enough men to make their own decisions about complaining than you must really think they are pathetic on a personal level.

Randle isn't in the same stratosphere as Jokic or Doncic in terms of impact. You put up with it when you have a superstar, Randle is a fringe all-star level player.

Not even that last season was clearly a fluke.

[winforlose]

That is the wrong way to look at it. Talent level is only one part of the equation. Fit is another. Also think about impact. Good players can have bad games, bad players can absolutely take over games. Do you tolerate a bad player on a good night? What about the best available PF for our budget? If he gets us 5 extra wins or even 3 extra wins you put up with it. Every win matters.

Personally, I don't think Randle helps us much, if at all. His best trait is scoring and having the ball in his hands, we have Ant, Kat, and Dlo already in those roles. Then you put Vando who has been fantastic this season, rebounding and defending, onto the bench of minimize the impact he's making for us. Randle makes way too much for me to have any interest in trading for him, and for what role he offers.

I don’t know if you just didn’t see the dozen plus posts on here where I address this, but I will say it again. V8 is more than capable of guarding a SF. As a non shooter whose primary offense is PNR and cutting to the basket he is essentially positionless on offense. He can absolutely play alongside Randle and KAT and Dlo and Ant can initiate the offense. Randle is good enough from distance and off the dribble that they must guard him. If a big guards KAT and a big guards Randle that means a SF is guarding V8 which means a smaller player doing the box out.

Randle is a solid defensive rebounder, decent scorer, and his contract won’t break us. If the fit is bad we can trade him later and lose little to no value. Also, before you dismiss him out of hand, think about what we need. Defensive rebounding, consistent scoring, someone who spaces the floor, and a big body that can defend the paint while KAT is guarding the perimeter. While Randle is not especially switchable, he would be perfect for paint protection. At 6’9 250lb he won’t get bullied as often as V8, and his rebounding technique is much better than Naz. Also with a 7’0 wingspan I see no reason he cannot shot block.

2 firsts, Bolmaro, Okogie, and Beasley should get it done. Bolmaro is non rotation, Okogie is fringe rotation, Beverly moves to the bench and Nowell replaced Beasley. Second unit is Beverly, Nowell, MCD, Prince, and Naz.

Why for NY: Beasley frees them to move EF if they can and his contract will be expiring next year. Okogie is a Thibs guy and NY badly needs extra defense on the wings. Bolmaro is a guard with huge defensive upside and could become a mix of Okogie and Rubio. Plus 2 unprotected picks this is as good as any offer they will get for him.

[BlacJacMac]

2 unprotected 1sts for Julius Randle??

Did I miss where we’re getting Mitchell Robinson too?

[moss_is_1]

I don’t know if you just didn’t see the dozen plus posts on here where I address this, but I will say it again. V8 is more than capable of guarding a SF. As a non shooter whose primary offense is PNR and cutting to the basket he is essentially positionless on offense. He can absolutely play alongside Randle and KAT and Dlo and Ant can initiate the offense. Randle is good enough from distance and off the dribble that they must guard him. If a big guards KAT and a big guards Randle that means a SF is guarding V8 which means a smaller player doing the box out.

Playing Vando at SF with Randle is just clogging the paint up even more, IMO. Randle shoots threes, but not well. His TS% is absolutely awful this season.

Randle is a solid defensive rebounder, decent scorer, and his contract won’t break us. If the fit is bad we can trade him later and lose little to no value. Also, before you dismiss him out of hand, think about what we need. Defensive rebounding, consistent scoring, someone who spaces the floor, and a big body that can defend the paint while KAT is guarding the perimeter. While Randle is not especially switchable, he would be perfect for paint protection. At 6’9 250lb he won’t get bullied as often as V8, and his rebounding technique is much better than Naz. Also with a 7’0 wingspan I see no reason he cannot shot block.

If we were talking about him as like a 6th man? Sure, that seems fine. Kat shouldn't be guarding the perimeter anyway. I'm not sure Randle can guard much of anyone either. Randle's proven he's not a shotblocker, he averages .5 for his career.

I just don't see much of any point in us trading for him. We can talk ourselves into it, but with the roster we have I'd pass and not even put much thought into it.

[winforlose]

2 unprotected 1sts for Julius Randle??

Did I miss where we’re getting Mitchell Robinson too?

Your right. Normally I would top 8 protect them, but with rumors of other teams pursuing him, this is kinda like best and final rather than the build up to it.

[winforlose]

I don’t know if you just didn’t see the dozen plus posts on here where I address this, but I will say it again. V8 is more than capable of guarding a SF. As a non shooter whose primary offense is PNR and cutting to the basket he is essentially positionless on offense. He can absolutely play alongside Randle and KAT and Dlo and Ant can initiate the offense. Randle is good enough from distance and off the dribble that they must guard him. If a big guards KAT and a big guards Randle that means a SF is guarding V8 which means a smaller player doing the box out.

Playing Vando at SF with Randle is just clogging the paint up even more, IMO. Randle shoots threes, but not well. His TS% is absolutely awful this season.

Randle is a solid defensive rebounder, decent scorer, and his contract won’t break us. If the fit is bad we can trade him later and lose little to no value. Also, before you dismiss him out of hand, think about what we need. Defensive rebounding, consistent scoring, someone who spaces the floor, and a big body that can defend the paint while KAT is guarding the perimeter. While Randle is not especially switchable, he would be perfect for paint protection. At 6’9 250lb he won’t get bullied as often as V8, and his rebounding technique is much better than Naz. Also with a 7’0 wingspan I see no reason he cannot shot block.

If we were talking about him as like a 6th man? Sure, that seems fine. Kat shouldn't be guarding the perimeter anyway. I'm not sure Randle can guard much of anyone either. Randle's proven he's not a shotblocker, he averages .5 for his career.

I just don't see much of any point in us trading for him. We can talk ourselves into it, but with the roster we have I'd pass and not even put much thought into it.

1. Your right that he is having a bad year. But he is also the focus of the defense. Put him next to KAT, Dlo, and Ant, and he will have a lot more clean looks and easy buckets. Also, even at around 33% from 3 opponents must guard him. Finally, if they don’t and he doesn’t want to shoot the 3 Randle is good enough off the dribble to drive and either kick or finish depending on what the defense is doing.

2. KAT has been guarding the perimeter in the high wall, and we do need a big body in the paint. The reason Randle isn’t a shot blocker or solid defender is a lack of lateral quickness to stay in front of people. But his deficiencies would be well covered up in our scheme. Also remember that Dlo and KAT had a reputation as bad defenders but they look much improved as well. Scheme matters, culture matters, winning matters.

3. Finally, at mid 20s Randle doesn’t break the bank. Even if turns into our sixth man so what. He is a reliable 10/10 or 15/10 guy who can step up when we have guys out. He will win games by helping us in the areas we need help.

[Domejandro]

One last bit on Smart.

I can see the Timberwolves being interested in Smart. Gupta has said that he wants MIN to be longterm buyers, and as much as we all love Beverley, he is 33. I could see a trade if the price is reasonable, but BOS has less leverage with MIN than virtually any other team - they just extend Beverley and spend a little more money to be able to keep their 1st, and worry about the problem down the road.

But imagine if MIN acquires Smart 27, on his current deal ($14,339,285 $16,607,142 $18,583,713 $19,960,285 $21,336,856). Where does that leave Beverley? If you pay Smart this much, you’re eventually turning the starting role over to him, so you better not pay Bev like a starter to play back up minutes. He’s certainly played well enough to be a starter on some nba team.

I think what we are seeing is that MIN will offer Beverley an extension after the Trade Deadline, if it still makes sense for both parties.

My presumption would be that Minnesota would only really be interested in pulling the trigger on Marcus Smart if Patrick Beverly was part of another deal. I really do not see it happening, otherwise.

[winforlose]

One last bit on Smart.

I can see the Timberwolves being interested in Smart. Gupta has said that he wants MIN to be longterm buyers, and as much as we all love Beverley, he is 33. I could see a trade if the price is reasonable, but BOS has less leverage with MIN than virtually any other team - they just extend Beverley and spend a little more money to be able to keep their 1st, and worry about the problem down the road.

But imagine if MIN acquires Smart 27, on his current deal ($14,339,285 $16,607,142 $18,583,713 $19,960,285 $21,336,856). Where does that leave Beverley? If you pay Smart this much, you’re eventually turning the starting role over to him, so you better not pay Bev like a starter to play back up minutes. He’s certainly played well enough to be a starter on some nba team.

I think what we are seeing is that MIN will offer Beverley an extension after the Trade Deadline, if it still makes sense for both parties.

My presumption would be that Minnesota would only really be interested in pulling the trigger on Marcus Smart if Patrick Beverly was part of another deal. I really do not see it happening, otherwise.

Smart feels like a poor man’s Beverly on a bad contract. I think this whole thing is leverage to get Bev to sign cheaper.

[life_saver]

I cannot understand this obsession with Randle...he really isn't that good

[winforlose]

I cannot understand this obsession with Randle...he really isn't that good

He checks all the boxes, can play with V8, only costs in the 20s and his upside is all star. Also he is unhappy on NY and cheap relative to his similarly talented alternatives. Good enough? I can go on.

[shrink]

One last bit on Smart.

I can see the Timberwolves being interested in Smart. Gupta has said that he wants MIN to be longterm buyers, and as much as we all love Beverley, he is 33. I could see a trade if the price is reasonable, but BOS has less leverage with MIN than virtually any other team - they just extend Beverley and spend a little more money to be able to keep their 1st, and worry about the problem down the road.

But imagine if MIN acquires Smart 27, on his current deal ($14,339,285 $16,607,142 $18,583,713 $19,960,285 $21,336,856). Where does that leave Beverley? If you pay Smart this much, you’re eventually turning the starting role over to him, so you better not pay Bev like a starter to play back up minutes. He’s certainly played well enough to be a starter on some nba team.

I think what we are seeing is that MIN will offer Beverley an extension after the Trade Deadline, if it still makes sense for both parties.

My presumption would be that Minnesota would only really be interested in pulling the trigger on Marcus Smart if Patrick Beverly was part of another deal. I really do not see it happening, otherwise.

I’m not sure I see the distinction here.

If we dealt for Smart, Beverley would either be gone through trade, or gone at the end of the season when we didn’t extend him.

Are you saying we’re unwilling to include Beasley in a Smart deal?