2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

[feyki]

Doncic entered the bbref's mvp tracking, here's his last 10 games:

30 PPG, 10 RPG, 10 APG, 120 ORTG

. Better than Magic ?

[harlem_ball]

Doncic entered the bbref's mvp tracking, here's his last 10 games:

30 PPG, 10 RPG, 10 APG, 120 ORTG

. Better than Magic ?

Mavs suck, these are empty stats ala Westbrook.


Edit: I'm wrong. Mavs have a good record now.

[mediocrityrules]

Doncic entered the bbref's mvp tracking, here's his last 10 games:

30 PPG, 10 RPG, 10 APG, 120 ORTG

. Better than Magic ?

Mavs suck, these are empty stats ala Westbrook.


Edit: I'm wrong. Mavs have a good record now.

Mavs have been sneaking up the standings a bit recently. Forgetting the awful loss to OKC a couple of games ago, they've started to turn it around.

Still can't see Luka breaking into the top 3 in the MVP race (with Curry still at the door in 4th, CP3 hanging at 5 - at least in my view)

[feyki]

Doncic entered the bbref's mvp tracking, here's his last 10 games:

30 PPG, 10 RPG, 10 APG, 120 ORTG

. Better than Magic ?

Mavs suck, these are empty stats ala Westbrook.


Edit: I'm wrong. Mavs have a good record now.

Mavs have been sneaking up the standings a bit recently. Forgetting the awful loss to OKC a couple of games ago, they've started to turn it around.

Still can't see Luka breaking into the top 3 in the MVP race (with Curry still at the door in 4th, CP3 hanging at 5 - at least in my view)

No chance but could sniff the top 10 air.

[sisibilio]

Doncic entered the bbref's mvp tracking, here's his last 10 games:

30 PPG, 10 RPG, 10 APG, 120 ORTG

. Better than Magic ?

Mavs suck, these are empty stats ala Westbrook.


Edit: I'm wrong. Mavs have a good record now.

Mavs had a surprisingly good record all season, much better than they should

[BoatsNZones]

Doncic entered the bbref's mvp tracking, here's his last 10 games:

30 PPG, 10 RPG, 10 APG, 120 ORTG

. Better than Magic ?

Mavs suck, these are empty stats ala Westbrook.


Edit: I'm wrong. Mavs have a good record now.

Mavs had a surprisingly good record all season, much better than they should

Similar to Ja Morant and the Grizz, the Mavs actually have faired worse with Luka on the floor this season. This could get into a more in depth discussion about rotations and how certain players should be utilized, but these are not exactly small sample sizes at this point. To be sure, both are great, but neither are remotely close to MVP caliber players this season.

[AussieBuck]

MVP tracker:

Jokic 39.3%
Giannis 22.8%
Embiid 10.6%
Paul 10%
Curry 5.%
Gobert 3.8%
Morant 2.5%
Doncic 1.8%

Odds makers have Embiid, Jokic, Giannis and Curry between $3.30 and $5 with Ja at $10. Nobody else under $33. Luka has only played 38 games so he might be too far behind.

[boogiezen]

Mavs suck, these are empty stats ala Westbrook.


Edit: I'm wrong. Mavs have a good record now.

Mavs had a surprisingly good record all season, much better than they should

Similar to Ja Morant and the Grizz, the Mavs actually have faired worse with Luka on the floor this season. This could get into a more in depth discussion about rotations and how certain players should be utilized, but these are not exactly small sample sizes at this point. To be sure, neither are remotely close to MVP caliber players this season.

Dallas is under 500 without Luka. Completely opposite from Memphis which has a good record even without Morant.

[BoatsNZones]

Mavs had a surprisingly good record all season, much better than they should

Similar to Ja Morant and the Grizz, the Mavs actually have faired worse with Luka on the floor this season. This could get into a more in depth discussion about rotations and how certain players should be utilized, but these are not exactly small sample sizes at this point. To be sure, neither are remotely close to MVP caliber players this season.

Dallas is under 500 without Luka. Completely opposite from Memphis which has a good record even without Morant.

I'm looking at their actual on/off numbers over the course of the entire season.

Although the Memphis winning streak against ****/skeleton teams that created a hate thread on Ja was predictable and funny.

Point is, neither of these players have brought an impact anywhere near the top 4 MVP favorites, and we can probably leave it at that... but both will definitely be in consideration for a few fringe top-5 votes, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

[kazyv]

It’s Steph.

Also didn’t realize that Morris was still out because of that Joker retaliation. Good. It’s really weak sauce when people make non basketball fouls to hurt others. Karma.

Morris is gonna end up suing the crap out of Jokic if his career is in jeopardy.

even if that was possible and it probably isn't, because it's all part of the sport...

it would be a really dumb idea, because he would probably end up having to pay jokic and his lawyers. because in court, they will absolutely look at his history of thugging it up on the court. so all pretense of basketball play is going to be out of the window. it's just going to be him trying to injure somebody and then trying to avoid retaliation by turning his back.

[sisibilio]

Similar to Ja Morant and the Grizz, the Mavs actually have faired worse with Luka on the floor this season. This could get into a more in depth discussion about rotations and how certain players should be utilized, but these are not exactly small sample sizes at this point. To be sure, neither are remotely close to MVP caliber players this season.

Dallas is under 500 without Luka. Completely opposite from Memphis which has a good record even without Morant.

I'm looking at their actual on/off numbers over the course of the entire season.

Although the Memphis winning streak against ****/skeleton teams that created a hate thread on Ja was predictable and funny.

Point is, neither of these players have brought an impact anywhere near the top 4 MVP favorites, and we can probably leave it at that... but both will definitely be in consideration for a few fringe top-5 votes, and that's nothing to sneeze at.

We'll see. The last couple months have more weight in the narratives leading to this award than the rest of the season

[Doctor MJ]

So it's OK to react like he did against Markieff Morris, who has now missed 44 games with a spinal injury and who knows if or when he'll play again. Running into him from behind is OK with you, because he didn't like the way he was fouled.

So, felt like I should comment on this:

First thing I want to say is that I don't like how the NBA is being so lenient with punishment right now. This thing where a guy breaking rules with violence that causes injury only results in a 1 game suspension needs to stop. I don't think it's clear what the suspension for a Jokic or Grayson Allen play, but it feels like the NBA isn't really grappling with it. The NBA of David Stern was known for overreacting to stuff like this, and I don't want to go back to that ridiculous era, but I think there's a middle ground we can find.

And I'll tell you: If something like this made you refuse to consider Jokic for MVP, I really wouldn't have a problem with that...but I'm not comfortable ignoring a player who is actually playing when I do these evaluations.

But over to the Morris side, let me acknowledge that my first reaction toward him here was devoid of sympathy. The Morris brothers aren't just random NBA players, they have among the very worst reputations in the league as violent bullies, and so I really can't get behind the idea the foul against Jokic by Markieff was just an innocent thing. They were clearly doing the whole "make'em have to hurt, even if they beat you" thing, and when you do that, and the other person reacts, you brought it upon yourself. And when you bring it on yourself, and then afterward you continue to insult and threaten the guy you started this s**t with, you just make it that much easier for me to roll my eyes at you.

Then there's the matter of doing the quick dirty foul and walking away with your back to the guy. Morris was clearly thinking then - and has said so explicitly later - that if Jokic responded and hit him when he was walking away, that Jokic would be the one who looked weak. But that logic only works if you first stick around and dare the guy to get you from the front. When you turn your back right away, you're just making your body uniquely vulnerable to a counterattack...

Which is of course why Morris got so badly hurt despite Jokic clearly not actually attacking him like he would if were a more serious fight. If you really want to hurt somebody, you don't just shoulder check him. But when you turn your back on a guy you risk getting whiplash even from a shoulder push, particularly when the guy is a lot bigger than you...which is why you would never do this to a guy much bigger than you if you were just in some random place and focused on making sure you were protecting yourself.

But with all that said:

I hate that Markieff has been derailed like he has for so long now. I hope he gets back to 100% with godspeed, and if Jokic only got a short suspension because it was a first offense, well, Jokic needs to have a much more severe punishment if he ever hurts someone with non-basketball action on the court again.

i think is more important to evaluate the action and mot the results when it comes to dirty or injury causing play

some incredibly dirty and dangerous plays may not cause anythingh, a normal basketball mpve can cause a serious injury, which is why i dont like the idea that punishment comes based on whether you caused a injury or not

or put another way, a basketball move that unfortunately ends causing injury shouldnt lead to a suspensión, a dirty basketball move that fortunately doesnt cause anythingh should lead to a suspensión

in that criteria i think grayson allen swipe down contesting caruso is closer to a legitimate basketball move (if a reckless one) than jokic (or morris before that)
but the reaction was a lot harsher to the former

to keep a reputation of fairness nba needs to very carefully and precisely decide what makes a play punishment worthy or not and not just punish whoever player that causes a injury to go along with "popular demand" the reasoning for grayson allen suspensión should not be tied to caruso injury



off topic but this reminds me that i called jokic push as extremely dangerous months ago, both here and in pc board and most people told me i was overreacting.... sudden inpacts like that when you dont expect them are freajking dangerous, that is how people necks ans spines break in car crashes

i REALLY think morris hate made people overlook how jokic push was legit life threatening (not so much as killing morris, "just" a huge danger to his life quality and longterm health)

So I can’t help but ask myself how this would look if Jokic and Allen switched places.

If Allen did what Jokic did, what would happen? Well, key thing: Morris would have been fine. He wouldn’t have moved so violently. He likely would not have fallen down. He likely would not have been hurt.

In general going up to someone and giving them a shoulder bump is not an attack, it’s a message saying “Hey if a fight is what you want, I’m right here.”, because actual attacks involve parts of the body that can be moved with far greater speed.

Literally the only reason this has been a thing beyond the night in question is because Jokic is so much bigger than Morris…which is why you don’t F with much bigger guys and then turn your back in them because they might end up seriously hurting you even without an intended attack.

Now, I certainly understand the reality that if you’re the much bigger dude, and you hurt someone even by accident, you will get blamed. This is why I really wouldn’t object to Jokic getting a much bigger penalty when it turned out Morris was seriously hurt…but let’s just say that Caruso would have been in great danger with Jokic pulling an Allen too, and I’d have been far more bothered by Jokic’s actions there because he would have been endangering someone who had only been playing basketball.

When a big guy doesn’t know his own strength when he responds to someone else’s violence, I think it’s fair to say he’s on the hook for that…but that doesn’t mean the guy who started it is an innocent.

Why is Caruso where he is right now? Because Allen purposefully made a foul harder than he needed to.

Why is Morris out right now? Because Morris himself chose to make a foul harder than he needed to, and the guy he fouled responded.

Allen and Morris are the similar actors here - with similar reputations before the events in question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Swish1906]

Oh boy...no, Morris wasnt just a "hard foul" blabla. Morris fully intended to hurt Jokic. Not just the ellbow, but also the dirty going through with his knee into Jokers planted Knee from the side. Thats how knee injuries happen.

And yes, full intention to hurt him. Same intention his trash brother had when he picked up Luka full court one single time in an entire series just to step on his injuried ankle.

So cry me a river about poor Markieff. Trash roleplayer going after superstars in such a way need to get kicked out of the league

Read on Twitter

?t=MwKIAeDHGrZg7_RMcBE86Q&s=19

[falcolombardi]

So, felt like I should comment on this:

First thing I want to say is that I don't like how the NBA is being so lenient with punishment right now. This thing where a guy breaking rules with violence that causes injury only results in a 1 game suspension needs to stop. I don't think it's clear what the suspension for a Jokic or Grayson Allen play, but it feels like the NBA isn't really grappling with it. The NBA of David Stern was known for overreacting to stuff like this, and I don't want to go back to that ridiculous era, but I think there's a middle ground we can find.

And I'll tell you: If something like this made you refuse to consider Jokic for MVP, I really wouldn't have a problem with that...but I'm not comfortable ignoring a player who is actually playing when I do these evaluations.

But over to the Morris side, let me acknowledge that my first reaction toward him here was devoid of sympathy. The Morris brothers aren't just random NBA players, they have among the very worst reputations in the league as violent bullies, and so I really can't get behind the idea the foul against Jokic by Markieff was just an innocent thing. They were clearly doing the whole "make'em have to hurt, even if they beat you" thing, and when you do that, and the other person reacts, you brought it upon yourself. And when you bring it on yourself, and then afterward you continue to insult and threaten the guy you started this s**t with, you just make it that much easier for me to roll my eyes at you.

Then there's the matter of doing the quick dirty foul and walking away with your back to the guy. Morris was clearly thinking then - and has said so explicitly later - that if Jokic responded and hit him when he was walking away, that Jokic would be the one who looked weak. But that logic only works if you first stick around and dare the guy to get you from the front. When you turn your back right away, you're just making your body uniquely vulnerable to a counterattack...

Which is of course why Morris got so badly hurt despite Jokic clearly not actually attacking him like he would if were a more serious fight. If you really want to hurt somebody, you don't just shoulder check him. But when you turn your back on a guy you risk getting whiplash even from a shoulder push, particularly when the guy is a lot bigger than you...which is why you would never do this to a guy much bigger than you if you were just in some random place and focused on making sure you were protecting yourself.

But with all that said:

I hate that Markieff has been derailed like he has for so long now. I hope he gets back to 100% with godspeed, and if Jokic only got a short suspension because it was a first offense, well, Jokic needs to have a much more severe punishment if he ever hurts someone with non-basketball action on the court again.

i think is more important to evaluate the action and mot the results when it comes to dirty or injury causing play

some incredibly dirty and dangerous plays may not cause anythingh, a normal basketball mpve can cause a serious injury, which is why i dont like the idea that punishment comes based on whether you caused a injury or not

or put another way, a basketball move that unfortunately ends causing injury shouldnt lead to a suspensión, a dirty basketball move that fortunately doesnt cause anythingh should lead to a suspensión

in that criteria i think grayson allen swipe down contesting caruso is closer to a legitimate basketball move (if a reckless one) than jokic (or morris before that)
but the reaction was a lot harsher to the former

to keep a reputation of fairness nba needs to very carefully and precisely decide what makes a play punishment worthy or not and not just punish whoever player that causes a injury to go along with "popular demand" the reasoning for grayson allen suspensión should not be tied to caruso injury



off topic but this reminds me that i called jokic push as extremely dangerous months ago, both here and in pc board and most people told me i was overreacting.... sudden inpacts like that when you dont expect them are freajking dangerous, that is how people necks ans spines break in car crashes

i REALLY think morris hate made people overlook how jokic push was legit life threatening (not so much as killing morris, "just" a huge danger to his life quality and longterm health)

So I can’t help but ask myself how this would look if Jokic and Allen switched places.

If Allen did what Jokic did, what would happen? Well, key thing: Morris would have been fine. He wouldn’t have moved so violently. He likely would not have fallen down. He likely would not have been hurt.

In general going up to someone and giving them a shoulder bump is not an attack, it’s a message saying “Hey if a fight is what you want, I’m right here.”, because actual attacks involve parts of the body that can be moved with far greater speed.

Literally the only reason this has been a thing beyond the night in question is because Jokic is so much bigger than Morris…which is why you don’t F with much bigger guys and then turn your back in them because they might end up seriously hurting you even without an intended attack.

Now, I certainly understand the reality that if you’re the much bigger dude, and you hurt someone even by accident, you will get blamed. This is why I really wouldn’t object to Jokic getting a much bigger penalty when it turned out Morris was seriously hurt…but let’s just say that Caruso would have been in great danger with Jokic pulling an Allen too, and I’d have been far more bothered by Jokic’s actions there because he would have been endangering someone who had only been playing basketball.

When a big guy doesn’t know his own strength when he responds to someone else’s violence, I think it’s fair to say he’s on the hook for that…but that doesn’t mean the guy who started it is an innocent.

Why is Caruso where he is right now? Because Allen purposefully made a foul harder than he needed to.

Why is Morris out right now? Because Morris himself chose to make a foul harder than he needed to, and the guy he fouled responded.

Allen and Morris are the similar actors here - with similar reputations before the events in question.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

i think that all is fair, my point is mostly thst i dont think who did the dirty foul, who receives the dirty foul and whether it causes a injury or not should have any bearing in the punishment

which is what it has felt like lately

grayson history od dirty plays shouldnt (imo) make his punishment bigger, it would make more sense that a player who accunulates multiple punishment worthy plays receives a bigger penalty, not thst they receive a bigger punish someone else would for the same foul (Which it seems is what people asking for sometimes)

the injury part is about how sometimes whether a play was dirty or not has relatively little bearing in whether it ends up in injury or not,
i would hate to have a league where a tough but mostly fair play leads to a injury by happenstance and the player is suspenden while someone who did a injury cauaing move like tripping a player gets away easy because nobody got hurt (which is what a lot arguments have been like, grayson deserved a bigger punishment for cauaing a injury or morris)

that is why i dont think jokic should have had a bigger suspensión because he injured morris, he should have got a bigger suspensión because he did somethingh way too dangerous even if it was on retaliatiom of morris own dirty play
if morris didnt get injured and played the next day i would still say jokic would reserve a serious punishment to dissuade players from doing thinghs like these

similarly i think morris would deserve one for his dirty play regardless of jokic not getting hurt by it

[Doctor MJ]

i think that all is fair, my point is mostly thst i dont think who did the dirty foul, who receives the dirty foul and whether it causes a injury or not should have any bearing in the punishment

which is what it has felt like lately

grayson history od dirty plays shouldnt (imo) make his punishment bigger, it would make more sense that a player who accunulates multiple punishment worthy plays receives a bigger penalty, not thst they receive a bigger punish someone else would for the same foul (Which it seems is what people asking for sometimes)

the injury part is about how sometimes whether a play was dirty or not has relatively little bearing in whether it ends up in injury or not,
i would hate to have a league where a tough but mostly fair play leads to a injury by happenstance and the player is suspenden while someone who did a injury cauaing move like tripping a player gets away easy because nobody got hurt (which is what a lot arguments have been like, grayson deserved a bigger punishment for cauaing a injury or morris)

that is why i dont think jokic should have had a bigger suspensión because he injured morris, he should have got a bigger suspensión because he did somethingh way too dangerous even if it was on retaliatiom of morris own dirty play
if morris didnt get injured and played the next day i would still say jokic would reserve a serious punishment to dissuade players from doing thinghs like these

similarly i think morris would deserve one for his dirty play regardless of jokic not getting hurt by it

Many good points and I think your perspective is a valid one.

One point where I'd say we disagree thought is on whether to include previous history or not.

First, I think you have to look at previous history to get a best sense of frame of mind, and frame of mind matters because - as you say - if a guy didn't do anything intentional to hurt another player, but that player somehow manages to have a career ending injury as a result, he shouldn't be treated the same as someone achieving the same who acted trying to end that other players career.

I can't watch what Allen did to Caruso and not see the intent I've seen from him before doing things that could hurt someone.

I will say that I can't recall off the top of my head whether Allen's ever had one of these moments in the pros before. If this is only something from college, then were I the NBA, I'd want to let him off as more of a first-time guy in terms of the actual punishment, but have a serious conversation with him where I say

"We all know that this was a habit of yours in college. Consider this occurrence us giving you one last benefit of the doubt, but if we see anything like this from you again, we're going to treat this as physical assault on the basketball court just like we did with Malice at the Palace, and you're going to have strong risk for a season-long suspension."

Incidentally, to Jokic I'd say:

"We're giving you the benefit of the doubt that you really just didn't know your own strength, but now you know. You must not do this again. You tell us - through appropriate channels - if there's a problem we need to handle, but if something like this happens again we're going to have to make an example out of you, and remember what that looked like with Malice at the Palace.

Also, get your brothers under control."

And to Morris I'd say:

"We're with you every step of the way in your recovery. You did not deserve this. But you and your brother better not take the thing with Jokic any further. Don't think we are confused about who initiated the physical intimidation here. If we come to the conclusion that a grudge you hold results in a pre-meditated assault on Jokic planned in explicit defiance to our warnings, it will be difficult for us to ever allow you back in an NBA game."

[Hussien Fatal]

MVP Embiid with another 40 point game. Up 8 with 3 minutes to go vs the 1st seed bulls on the road.

[Sgt Major]

Outplayed by DeRozan who got 45 lol

[kuclas]

Outplayed by DeRozan who got 45 lol

Dude. Do u even watch the game.

Embiid plays 9 less minutes puts up 7 less shots and still puts up 40.

Demar is always a gifted offensive player.

But embiid is just on another level playing these days.

[Sgt Major]

Tell that to Sixers fans who don't give a **** about such stats when comparing Embiid to Joker

[AleksandarN]

Both the bigs came out to play today Embiid and Jokic. Best two players in the NBA. Tier above the rest