2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt. 1)

[AussieBuck]

Jokic is used heavily with starters to get leads and the Nuggets bench is generally left to themselves (where they get killed )
Giannis is used to keep junk lineups afloat while the other 4 starters play together with the 6th man.

Different roles lead to different +/-. Personally I think both coaches are going too far in their particular direction and would be better off with less extreme rotations.

[ty 4191]

Jokic on the other hand - while his record will certainly hold him back - I think we need to seriously start asking ourselves where this stacks up among the greatest regular seasons of all-time. The idea of possibly breaking the PER all-time record by a wide margin while having your team do 22 points better with you than without you is insane. He's accomplishing objective things like we've never seen before while playing in a style we've never seen before (to anywhere near this extent at least), and anyone knocking him blithely isn't criticizing him based on anything real about him as a player.

Excellent post, overall. Nice work.

As far as the part I excerpted here....I agree it's time to start talking about this 1.5 run he's had as arguably one of the greatest in NBA History.

Consider that in the past 129 games (including the 2021 Playoffs, dating back to the beginning of last season), Jokic has put up a slash line of:

27.4/12.0/7.0 (while leading all centers in steals by a huge margin):

The only player in NBA history to put up a slash line of 27.4/12.0/7.0 this in any 82 game season is Oscar Robertson, all the way back in 61'-62', and he did it in a game that featured 127 possessions per game, playing 44 MPG. Jokic, on the other hand, has done this in a league averaging only 102 possessions per game, and while playing only 34 MPG. And, he's sustained it for more than a season and a half.

That is astounding.

For those who prefer advanced metrics (that we have for all eras of the NBA), here are a few objective things to consider:

1. His 31.4 PER across the last 129 games stacks up against the best (single) seasons of Michael Jordan, Wilt Chamberlain, and Lebron James.

2. His BPM is 11.9, which stacks up against anything Michael Jordan ever did in a (single) season, and it falls just behind Lebron James' epic 2008-2009 campaign.

3. His TS% of .634 would be fifth all time among all high volume 3 point shooters, such as himself. And again, that's compared to only an 82 game sample for the other players.

He's done all of this while shooting an outstanding .841 from the line an incredible .382 from three point range on very high volume. Consider, too, that he's a 7 foot, 290 lb center, not a small, adroit, shooting focused guard.

We'll see if he sustains this, of course, however, 129 games is not exactly a small sample size.

He's certainly becoming- IMHO- an all time great player.

[ty 4191]

So, I want to clarify some things:

1. You're talking about him getting traded to the 76ers from the Warriors, right?

2. You're talking a Warrior team that lost 11 games in a row with Wilt right before they traded him.

3. You're talking a 76ers team that went 22-23 before Wilt arrived 18-17 after Wilt arrived.

4. You're talking about a team capable of .500 ball without Wilt, and it being an ultimate carry job because they fought the eventual champs hard in the 2nd round of the playoffs.

In general I'm not one to talk about the biggest "carry jobs" of all time - I don't think it's impressive as others do - but '64-65 from Wilt really wouldn't even be on the list if I did.

Jokic on the other hand, well, what he's doing this year really does fit as an extreme "carry job" perhaps beyond what I've ever seen before - though first Cavs LeBron is not easy to top.

1. Yes, I am.

2. Yep, his teammates were absolutely atrocious. They had one player (Thurmond) that was even league average based on PER and WS/48. The rest of the team was absolutely awful, highlighted by their -600 TS Added for the season, sans Wilt's contributions.

3. Fair enough. However, are you seriously stating that Wilt didn't have an outstanding season in 1965? 33.5/24.6/5.2 while setting the all time record for FG% isn't impressive?

4. "Capable of playing .500 ball" isn't exactly a very high bar to set, especially when you're talking about losing by 1 point against a 62-18 team (arguably, the greatest ever to that point), in Game 7 of the ECF.

5. Agreed on Jokic this season without MPJ and Murray for even 1 minute of the season. They (also) only have 1 player (Gordon) who is even league average, and they're still 29-24 in a very strong conference.

Worth noting:

“Jokic is second in the NBA in rebounding, and he’s also the best passer in the league. Denver has been thrashed by injuries, but it still plays like a historically dominant team (plus-12.8 points per 100) as long as Jokic is on the court; when he’s not, the Nuggets play like the worst team in NBA history (minus-15.2 per 100).”

[eyeatoma]

Seeing that this thread is over a 100 pages, and the forum regulations are that all threads need to be locked at 100 to keep the server stable here is the new MVP thread. New poll created as well.

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