Woj: Domantas Sabonis, J. Lamb, J. Holiday Traded to Sacramento for Tyrese Haliburton, Buddy Hield, T. Thompson

[formula 400]

He's done it again folks!

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LOL WTF KINGS???!!!!!!!! THIS IS AS EPICALLY BAD AS THE 2002 COULDV'E WOULDVE TITLE

[XTC]

It's quite comical how The Kings treated Haliburton, a guy who actually forced his way to the franchise and stated "he's going to change the direction & culture of the franchise". He was never given a fair shot to be the man, but even then he always produced. Whether it was Fox or Mitchell he was always pushed to be an off ball guard, when it's obvious he's a natural point guard.

Since being drafted Haliburton has played 1689 minutes with De'Aaron Fox not on the floor.

His averages in those 1689 minutes are
16.5 PPG, 4 RPG, 8.8 APG, 1.9 SPG with a TS of 56.2%

This season he's played 903 minutes with Fox not on the floor. His averages during that span are 15.1 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 9.2 APG, 1.9 SPG with a TS of 55.0%

Kings fan can support me when I say Haliburton has been used more of a 2. When Fox isn't on the floor he sees a ton of time with Mitchell, who is not an ideal fit next to Haliburton. If you remove Mitchell from the equation Haliburton has played 333 minutes and in that time he's averaged 18.3 PPG, 3.2 RPG, 11.0 APG, 1.7 SPG with a TS of 57.9%

Let's also not forget Haliburton was breaking out big time recently. His last 24 games he was averaging 17.3 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 9.4 APG, 1.6 SPG on 48/43/87 shooting splits.

I think getting out of Sacramento is absolutely going to be the best thing for Haliburton's career. IMO he's a star in the waiting. This trade is going to look foolish very soon IMO. There's a reason why the league is "stunned". You just don't trade a young stud like Haliburton who's trending upwards... especially for Sabonis.

[LightTheBeam]

I gather from this post that you looked at stats and haven’t watched much Hali. Maybe those that follow it closely actually have some insight you are lacking.

Please, share what makes you think Haliburton is going to be a better player than Sabonis is right now. Defense? Scoring? Shooting/efficiency? Passing? Rebounding? I don't think anyone would argue that Sabonis is better in literally every single one of those categories right now, so when/how do you see Haliburton becoming better than Sabonis in any of them, let alone the majority of them, to become a better overall player?

Even if you compare them based on their seasons at the same age, Sabonis comes out on top. Both started in the NBA at age 20, so we can compare them season by season. Bigs are notoriously slow to develop, but Sabonis quickly blossomed into a star, making huge leaps his first few seasons. I'll use PER and WS/48 to compare them since they are fairly easy to understand overall metrics, but nearly every advanced stat shows the same thing for both. Sabonis' PER went from 7>17.5>21.9 his first 3 seasons, his WS/48 went from .022>.126>.197. By his third season, he was legitimately a top 20-30 player in the NBA.

Haliburton, on the other hand, had a very solid rookie season, but has only marginally improved since. His rookie season he had a PER of 16.2, this season it's 17.5. His WS/48 went from .096 last season to .116 this season. Both are nice, but marginal improvements. So what is it about his trajectory that makes you think he's going to make a leap from a PER of 17.5 to the 22/23 range by next season, or nearly double his WS/48 by next season? I don't see it.

Thanks for confirming what I thought. You haven’t been watching Hali and are just looking at stats to try and make an argument. Not interested in continuing with someone that doesn’t understand what they are saying.

I've watched just about every single Kings game this year. I agree with him. Please tell us where Hali has significantly improved? His assist numbers are up because hes been given more opportunity to run the team. Where else has he improved this year?

He's too passive
He jumps in the air before he knows where hes going with the ball about 5x per game
Hes weak
He doesn't have the speed to blow by guys
his weird shooting form means he cant shoot over guys (so cant even utilize his length)
Bad defender. He gets steals, but gives up a ton of easy buckets. And hes too weak to body guys up.
He still doesn't really have offensive moves. The 2 games he blew up, he was on fire shooting the ball.

His court vision is great. And hes a good shooter when he has space. I still don't love the trade and preferred to keep Tyrese and help him work on getting better. But Kings fans need to really stop acting like he was saving this franchise, or that he's some potential top 5 NBA player.

I love him. I hope he develops all the missing pieces and becomes a superstar. But the chance of that happening in Sac even without Fox was slim.

My biggest issue was the direction. I wanted to move the vets out, tank the rest of the season, and find a true star to pair with Fox/Hali.

[LightTheBeam]

Again, my biggest issue with this deal was the direction. We should have traded Barnes, Holmes, Bagley, Buddy, let fox sit the rest of the season and get a top draft pick. This definitely wasn't the direction I wanted to pick.

But In terms of who won the deal on value, I have the Kings. Even if you think Hali = Sabonis in terms of value.

We dumped Buddy who is absolutely trash aside from his shooting (which has been horrendous the last month). I was thinking maybe we could get the Lakers to take him in a desperation move, but he didn't really have any suitors. We got Holiday. Nothing crazy but a nice rotation guy locked in next year cheap. Good defender. We got a Pacers 2nd round pick next year.

Take out Hali and Sabonis from the deal. Buddy/Tristan for Holiday/Lamb/2nd. If I posted this a week ago it would have been laughed off the face of the earth. People would have said it needs a Kings 1st to balance it. So basically the board is saying that Hali is that much better than Sabonis? I don't see it.

And this is coming from an upset Sac fan who preferred the trade never happened.

[SNPA]

Please, share what makes you think Haliburton is going to be a better player than Sabonis is right now. Defense? Scoring? Shooting/efficiency? Passing? Rebounding? I don't think anyone would argue that Sabonis is better in literally every single one of those categories right now, so when/how do you see Haliburton becoming better than Sabonis in any of them, let alone the majority of them, to become a better overall player?

Even if you compare them based on their seasons at the same age, Sabonis comes out on top. Both started in the NBA at age 20, so we can compare them season by season. Bigs are notoriously slow to develop, but Sabonis quickly blossomed into a star, making huge leaps his first few seasons. I'll use PER and WS/48 to compare them since they are fairly easy to understand overall metrics, but nearly every advanced stat shows the same thing for both. Sabonis' PER went from 7>17.5>21.9 his first 3 seasons, his WS/48 went from .022>.126>.197. By his third season, he was legitimately a top 20-30 player in the NBA.

Haliburton, on the other hand, had a very solid rookie season, but has only marginally improved since. His rookie season he had a PER of 16.2, this season it's 17.5. His WS/48 went from .096 last season to .116 this season. Both are nice, but marginal improvements. So what is it about his trajectory that makes you think he's going to make a leap from a PER of 17.5 to the 22/23 range by next season, or nearly double his WS/48 by next season? I don't see it.

Thanks for confirming what I thought. You haven’t been watching Hali and are just looking at stats to try and make an argument. Not interested in continuing with someone that doesn’t understand what they are saying.

Ah yes, the good old "you only look at stats, but I know better" response. The kind of person that thought the Lakers were going to coast to the finals because they got Westbrook. Did you miss the first paragraph where I didn't even mention stats?

I used stats to discuss the *trajectory* of their career, but again, what evidence is there that Haliburton is better in any category than Sabonis is right now?

You seem to think because you state an opinion everyone should just accept that as the truth without any reasoning or evidence to back it up. I've consistently shown why I think something and backed it up, you've yet to once. If you just want to put your opinion out there and don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but don't come back with some weak response about it being about "stats" as to why you won't respond and then acting like it's beneath you on top of it.

You haven’t watched Hali. That’s clear as day. You haven’t even tried to deny it. Lol.

Thanks for contributing random stats trying to prove your preconceived point.

[Richard Miller]

I think getting out of Sacramento is absolutely going to be the best thing for Haliburton's career. IMO he's a star in the waiting. This trade is going to look foolish very soon IMO.

Imo this a bad trade if Hali becomes a perennial all-star, which is certainly not impossible, but not exactly a given like many seem to imply. If he becomes a good role player or a good starter but not all-star level (which isn't a bad thing btw), this is still a win for the Kings.

[SNPA]

Please, share what makes you think Haliburton is going to be a better player than Sabonis is right now. Defense? Scoring? Shooting/efficiency? Passing? Rebounding? I don't think anyone would argue that Sabonis is better in literally every single one of those categories right now, so when/how do you see Haliburton becoming better than Sabonis in any of them, let alone the majority of them, to become a better overall player?

Even if you compare them based on their seasons at the same age, Sabonis comes out on top. Both started in the NBA at age 20, so we can compare them season by season. Bigs are notoriously slow to develop, but Sabonis quickly blossomed into a star, making huge leaps his first few seasons. I'll use PER and WS/48 to compare them since they are fairly easy to understand overall metrics, but nearly every advanced stat shows the same thing for both. Sabonis' PER went from 7>17.5>21.9 his first 3 seasons, his WS/48 went from .022>.126>.197. By his third season, he was legitimately a top 20-30 player in the NBA.

Haliburton, on the other hand, had a very solid rookie season, but has only marginally improved since. His rookie season he had a PER of 16.2, this season it's 17.5. His WS/48 went from .096 last season to .116 this season. Both are nice, but marginal improvements. So what is it about his trajectory that makes you think he's going to make a leap from a PER of 17.5 to the 22/23 range by next season, or nearly double his WS/48 by next season? I don't see it.

Thanks for confirming what I thought. You haven’t been watching Hali and are just looking at stats to try and make an argument. Not interested in continuing with someone that doesn’t understand what they are saying.

I've watched just about every single Kings game this year. I agree with him. Please tell us where Hali has significantly improved? His assist numbers are up because hes been given more opportunity to run the team. Where else has he improved this year?

He's too passive
He jumps in the air before he knows where hes going with the ball about 5x per game
Hes weak
He doesn't have the speed to blow by guys
his weird shooting form means he cant shoot over guys (so cant even utilize his length)
Bad defender. He gets steals, but gives up a ton of easy buckets. And hes too weak to body guys up.
He still doesn't really have offensive moves. The 2 games he blew up, he was on fire shooting the ball.

His court vision is great. And hes a good shooter when he has space. I still don't love the trade and preferred to keep Tyrese and help him work on getting better. But Kings fans need to really stop acting like he was saving this franchise, or that he's some potential top 5 NBA player.

I love him. I hope he develops all the missing pieces and becomes a superstar. But the chance of that happening in Sac even without Fox was slim.

My biggest issue was the direction. I wanted to move the vets out, tank the rest of the season, and find a true star to pair with Fox/Hali.

So a second year PG has his play making blowing up to upper tier levels and you aren’t sure how he has improved?

[runtmc]

Please, share what makes you think Haliburton is going to be a better player than Sabonis is right now. Defense? Scoring? Shooting/efficiency? Passing? Rebounding? I don't think anyone would argue that Sabonis is better in literally every single one of those categories right now, so when/how do you see Haliburton becoming better than Sabonis in any of them, let alone the majority of them, to become a better overall player?

Even if you compare them based on their seasons at the same age, Sabonis comes out on top. Both started in the NBA at age 20, so we can compare them season by season. Bigs are notoriously slow to develop, but Sabonis quickly blossomed into a star, making huge leaps his first few seasons. I'll use PER and WS/48 to compare them since they are fairly easy to understand overall metrics, but nearly every advanced stat shows the same thing for both. Sabonis' PER went from 7>17.5>21.9 his first 3 seasons, his WS/48 went from .022>.126>.197. By his third season, he was legitimately a top 20-30 player in the NBA.

Haliburton, on the other hand, had a very solid rookie season, but has only marginally improved since. His rookie season he had a PER of 16.2, this season it's 17.5. His WS/48 went from .096 last season to .116 this season. Both are nice, but marginal improvements. So what is it about his trajectory that makes you think he's going to make a leap from a PER of 17.5 to the 22/23 range by next season, or nearly double his WS/48 by next season? I don't see it.

Thanks for confirming what I thought. You haven’t been watching Hali and are just looking at stats to try and make an argument. Not interested in continuing with someone that doesn’t understand what they are saying.

Imagine using PER and WS/48 to prove who's a better basketball player

Player A
Drafted 2011
Career PER 24.4
WS/48 0.179

Player B
Drafted 2011
Career PER 16.4
WS/48 0.111

Player C
Drafted 2011
Career PER 20.8
WS/48 0.157

Player A is Jonas Valanciunas
Player B is Klay Thompson
Player C is Enes Kanter

Please try again

First, I wasn't using WS/48 or PER to discuss who the current better player is -- I would think that's not even in question. I was using it to demonstrate the trajectory of their development and to ask the other poster why he would think Haliburton is on a trajectory to surpass Sabonis.

Second, I specifically chose WS/48 and PER because WS/48 tends to over-estimate/favor big men, while PER tends to overestimate/favor guards, and I wanted to demonstrate the trajectory in both cases were clearly in favor of Sabonis. However, as I noted in the other post, other advanced stats, such as BPM, VORP, etc. all show the exact same thing in terms of their career trajectories. If literally every advanced stat is saying the same thing, you might want to listen.

Third, you got some numbers wrong. Valanciunas' career PER is 20.7, not 24.4. Additionally, you're using career PER and career WS/48 to make your case, which muddles the picture because of several things when looking at career numbers that are working against Klay -- that he was slow to develop, and then had to take a back seat playing along side Curry and then Curry/Durant, and then missed several prime years to injuries. Additionally, both Valanciunas and Kanter have played 26 and 21 mpg for their career, while Klay has played 33. Klay has been a starter going against the other team's best players consistently, while Valanciunas and Kanter haven't had to do the same, which makes their rate-based stats like PER and WS/48 look better, because they've been able to play against backups and the like more often, in addition to staying fresher on shorter minutes. If you're going to use stats, it's important to use them in the correct context.

Last, I'm a huge Warriors fan and a huge Klay fan (how can you not love Klay), but Klay has also largely been overrated for most of his career, while Kanter and Valanciunas have been terribly underrated. Klay, even at his best, was basically the best version of a 3 and D player you could want, but that was it. He couldn't create his own shots, he didn't rebound well for his size, he didn't pass well despite playing on the best passing teams of the decade, etc. In recent years (before his injuries), however, his defense began to fall off, as did his shooting. His defensive rating in 2017 and 2018 were below league average, and his TS+ fell off from 4 straight years of 107 or greater to just 102 in 2018. Not surprisingly, if the only things you do well are shoot and play defense, when both of those fall off, your WS/48 and PER also fall off. His WS/48 dropped off a cliff from his best seasons in 2014/2015, where it was .172/.144 (all-star level) to just .094 and .095 in 2017 and 2018 (average starter level).

So was Klay at his best better than Kanter/Valanciunas, yeah I think so --- but over his career? I don't think it's crazy at all to say he hasn't been as good as them, and he's been mostly riding the rep he earned in those 2 career years at the peak of GS's dominance. The point is just cherry picking stats (especially when you copy the stats wrong) without context can certainly lead to a distorted picture.

[Pelon chingon]

It's quite comical how The Kings treated Haliburton, a guy who actually forced his way to the franchise and stated "he's going to change the direction & culture of the franchise". He was never given a fair shot to be the man, but even then he always produced. Whether it was Fox or Mitchell he was always pushed to be an off ball guard, when it's obvious he's a natural point guard.

Since being drafted Haliburton has played 1753 minutes with De'Aaron Fox not on the floor.

His averages in those 1689 minutes are
16.5 PPG, 4 RPG, 8.8 APG, 1.9 SPG with a TS of 56.2%

This season he's played 903 minutes with Fox not on the floor. His averages during that span are 15.1 PPG, 4.2 RPG, 9.2 APG, 1.9 SPG with a TS of 55.0%

Kings fan can support me when I say Haliburton has been used more of a 2. When Fox isn't on the floor he sees a ton of time with Mitchell, who is not an ideal fit next to Haliburton. If you remove Mitchell from the equation Haliburton has played 333 minutes and in that time he's averaged 18.3 PPG, 3.2 RPG, 11.0 APG, 1.7 SPG with a TS of 57.9%

Let's also not forget Haliburton was breaking out big time recently. His last 24 games he was averaging 17.3 PPG, 3.8 RPG, 9.4 APG, 1.6 SPG on 48/42/87 shooting splits.

I think getting out of Sacramento is absolutely going to be the best thing for Haliburton's career. IMO he's a star in the waiting. This trade is going to look foolish very soon IMO.

What can we say as Kings fans. We've been dragged through the mud and had our faces spat on by the franchise but this one hurts different.

[XTC]

Thanks for confirming what I thought. You haven’t been watching Hali and are just looking at stats to try and make an argument. Not interested in continuing with someone that doesn’t understand what they are saying.

I've watched just about every single Kings game this year. I agree with him. Please tell us where Hali has significantly improved? His assist numbers are up because hes been given more opportunity to run the team. Where else has he improved this year?

He's too passive
He jumps in the air before he knows where hes going with the ball about 5x per game
Hes weak
He doesn't have the speed to blow by guys
his weird shooting form means he cant shoot over guys (so cant even utilize his length)
Bad defender. He gets steals, but gives up a ton of easy buckets. And hes too weak to body guys up.
He still doesn't really have offensive moves. The 2 games he blew up, he was on fire shooting the ball.

His court vision is great. And hes a good shooter when he has space. I still don't love the trade and preferred to keep Tyrese and help him work on getting better. But Kings fans need to really stop acting like he was saving this franchise, or that he's some potential top 5 NBA player.

I love him. I hope he develops all the missing pieces and becomes a superstar. But the chance of that happening in Sac even without Fox was slim.

My biggest issue was the direction. I wanted to move the vets out, tank the rest of the season, and find a true star to pair with Fox/Hali.

So a second year PG has his play making blowing up to upper tier levels and you aren’t sure how he has improved?

It's a coping mechanism.

I still remember telling myself how Eric & Aaron Williams where going be amazing for the Raptors when we gave away Vince Carter, and his Araujo was a much better fit next to Chris Bosh than Iguodala because big men take longer to develop

[DaPessimist]

Sabonis's game doesn't mesh with the modern NBA. He doesn't shoot the 3 ball. Doesn't defend the perimeter well. Doesn't defend the rim. He's a fantastic rebounder and passer, but he isn't Joker. If you're running your offense through Sabonis, you're not winning a lot of games. He should be a 3th or 4th option on a contending a team. A glue guy who does everything your superstar wing player doesn't want to do.


I don't think Haliburton is necessarily a better player than Sabonis, but his game mesh's much better with the modern NBA. I mean, Sabonis was paired with the perfect frontcourt partner to cover his deficiencies, and it still didn't work. I can throw Haliburton on any roster in the league and he can slide right into 1 or 2 slot. A lengthy playmaker who can shoot the 3 will mesh with any team.

[LightTheBeam]

Thanks for confirming what I thought. You haven’t been watching Hali and are just looking at stats to try and make an argument. Not interested in continuing with someone that doesn’t understand what they are saying.

I've watched just about every single Kings game this year. I agree with him. Please tell us where Hali has significantly improved? His assist numbers are up because hes been given more opportunity to run the team. Where else has he improved this year?

He's too passive
He jumps in the air before he knows where hes going with the ball about 5x per game
Hes weak
He doesn't have the speed to blow by guys
his weird shooting form means he cant shoot over guys (so cant even utilize his length)
Bad defender. He gets steals, but gives up a ton of easy buckets. And hes too weak to body guys up.
He still doesn't really have offensive moves. The 2 games he blew up, he was on fire shooting the ball.

His court vision is great. And hes a good shooter when he has space. I still don't love the trade and preferred to keep Tyrese and help him work on getting better. But Kings fans need to really stop acting like he was saving this franchise, or that he's some potential top 5 NBA player.

I love him. I hope he develops all the missing pieces and becomes a superstar. But the chance of that happening in Sac even without Fox was slim.

My biggest issue was the direction. I wanted to move the vets out, tank the rest of the season, and find a true star to pair with Fox/Hali.

So a second year PG has his play making blowing up to upper tier levels and you aren’t sure how he has improved?

How has that translated to winning? Which one of our players look better with this elite play making? Fox has been out the last 8 games. How have our guys benefited from this "play making blow up". Has any other Kings player really shined with Haliburtons assist boom?

Lets see - Over the last 8 games the Kings are 2-6 (wins against a tanking OKC team who benched the entire roster, and the Nets on an 8 game losing streak)

But sure, as I said, I agree his play making has advanced this year. Anything else?

So we should just ignore all the other flaws and pretend hes the 2nd coming of jesus because hes been hitting 10 assists per game. Doesn't matter that Boston beat us by 50, ATL had a 40 point swing on us, and we got blown out by the NYK who are 2-8 in their last 10.

Cool.

[XTC]

Thanks for confirming what I thought. You haven’t been watching Hali and are just looking at stats to try and make an argument. Not interested in continuing with someone that doesn’t understand what they are saying.

Imagine using PER and WS/48 to prove who's a better basketball player

Player A
Drafted 2011
Career PER 24.4
WS/48 0.179

Player B
Drafted 2011
Career PER 16.4
WS/48 0.111

Player C
Drafted 2011
Career PER 20.8
WS/48 0.157

Player A is Jonas Valanciunas
Player B is Klay Thompson
Player C is Enes Kanter

Please try again

First, I wasn't using WS/48 or PER to discuss who the current better player is -- I would think that's not even in question. I was using it to demonstrate the trajectory of their development and to ask the other poster why he would think Haliburton is on a trajectory to surpass Sabonis.

Second, I specifically chose WS/48 and PER because WS/48 tends to over-estimate/favor big men, while PER tends to overestimate/favor guards, and I wanted to demonstrate the trajectory in both cases were clearly in favor of Sabonis. However, as I noted in the other post, other advanced stats, such as BPM, VORP, etc. all show the exact same thing in terms of their career trajectories. If literally every advanced stat is saying the same thing, you might want to listen.

Third, you got some numbers wrong. Valanciunas' career PER is 20.7, not 24.4. Additionally, you're using career PER and career WS/48 to make your case, which muddles the picture because of several things when looking at career numbers that are working against Klay -- that he was slow to develop, and then had to take a back seat playing along side Curry and then Curry/Durant, and then missed several prime years to injuries. Additionally, both Valanciunas and Kanter have played 26 and 21 mpg for their career, while Klay has played 33. Klay has been a starter going against the other team's best players consistently, while Valanciunas and Kanter haven't had to do the same, which makes their rate-based stats like PER and WS/48 look better, because they've been able to play against backups and the like more often, in addition to staying fresher on shorter minutes. If you're going to use stats, it's important to use them in the correct context.

Last, I'm a huge Warriors fan and a huge Klay fan (how can you not love Klay), but Klay has also largely been overrated for most of his career, while Kanter and Valanciunas have been terribly underrated. Klay, even at his best, was basically the best version of a 3 and D player you could want, but that was it. He couldn't create his own shots, he didn't rebound well for his size, he didn't pass well despite playing on the best passing teams of the decade, etc. In recent years (before his injuries), however, his defense began to fall off, as did his shooting. His defensive rating in 2017 and 2018 were below league average, and his TS+ fell off from 4 straight years of 107 or greater to just 102 in 2018. Not surprisingly, if the only things you do well are shoot and play defense, when both of those fall off, your WS/48 and PER also fall off. His WS/48 dropped off a cliff from his best seasons in 2014/2015, where it was .172/.144 (all-star level) to just .094 and .095 in 2017 and 2018 (average starter level).

So was Klay at his best better than Kanter/Valanciunas, yeah I think so --- but over his career? I don't think it's crazy at all to say he hasn't been as good as them, and he's been mostly riding the rep he earned in those 2 career years at the peak of GS's dominance. The point is just cherry picking stats (especially when you copy the stats wrong) without context can certainly lead to a distorted picture.

I don't even know how to respond to this post

So all I'm going to say is I'm sorry for hitting 4 accidently instead of 0

[boomershadow]

Guess I’m in the minority that believes Sacramento won this trade. Sabonis is the best player in this deal and I believe will be for at least the next few years

I don't know if they won the trade, but I think pairing Fox with an elite screen setter is getting underrated.

[LightTheBeam]

I've watched just about every single Kings game this year. I agree with him. Please tell us where Hali has significantly improved? His assist numbers are up because hes been given more opportunity to run the team. Where else has he improved this year?

He's too passive
He jumps in the air before he knows where hes going with the ball about 5x per game
Hes weak
He doesn't have the speed to blow by guys
his weird shooting form means he cant shoot over guys (so cant even utilize his length)
Bad defender. He gets steals, but gives up a ton of easy buckets. And hes too weak to body guys up.
He still doesn't really have offensive moves. The 2 games he blew up, he was on fire shooting the ball.

His court vision is great. And hes a good shooter when he has space. I still don't love the trade and preferred to keep Tyrese and help him work on getting better. But Kings fans need to really stop acting like he was saving this franchise, or that he's some potential top 5 NBA player.

I love him. I hope he develops all the missing pieces and becomes a superstar. But the chance of that happening in Sac even without Fox was slim.

My biggest issue was the direction. I wanted to move the vets out, tank the rest of the season, and find a true star to pair with Fox/Hali.

So a second year PG has his play making blowing up to upper tier levels and you aren’t sure how he has improved?

It's a coping mechanism.

I still remember telling myself how Eric & Aaron Williams where going be amazing for the Raptors when we gave away Vince Carter, and his Araujo was a much better fit next to Chris Bosh than Iguodala because big men take longer to develop

Wouldn't your comparisons be better the opposite way?

Vince was a star. Sabonis is a star. Haliburton is not.

You are really going to sit there and compare Sabonis to Araujo and Aaron Williams??? LMAO

It blows my mind when people talk like this. Like you didn't even read what I wrote. So let me go ahead and copy paste it for you.

"Again, my biggest issue with this deal was the direction. We should have traded Barnes, Holmes, Bagley, Buddy, let fox sit the rest of the season and get a top draft pick. This definitely wasn't the direction I wanted to pick." ....... "and this is coming from an upset Sac fan who preferred the trade never happened."

I preferred we held Hali/Fox and found a way to add a top draft pick. Even then we could have used that pick to trade for a Sabonis. That has been my stance. Hali is a winning player, but hes not a superstar, and doesn't project to be one. "coping mechanism" lol. The Kings got better today, but not good enough to be a threat. I have no need to cope, this team has disappointed me the last 15 years, I don't spend money on them, and I have no care to defend them.

[SNPA]

I've watched just about every single Kings game this year. I agree with him. Please tell us where Hali has significantly improved? His assist numbers are up because hes been given more opportunity to run the team. Where else has he improved this year?

He's too passive
He jumps in the air before he knows where hes going with the ball about 5x per game
Hes weak
He doesn't have the speed to blow by guys
his weird shooting form means he cant shoot over guys (so cant even utilize his length)
Bad defender. He gets steals, but gives up a ton of easy buckets. And hes too weak to body guys up.
He still doesn't really have offensive moves. The 2 games he blew up, he was on fire shooting the ball.

His court vision is great. And hes a good shooter when he has space. I still don't love the trade and preferred to keep Tyrese and help him work on getting better. But Kings fans need to really stop acting like he was saving this franchise, or that he's some potential top 5 NBA player.

I love him. I hope he develops all the missing pieces and becomes a superstar. But the chance of that happening in Sac even without Fox was slim.

My biggest issue was the direction. I wanted to move the vets out, tank the rest of the season, and find a true star to pair with Fox/Hali.

So a second year PG has his play making blowing up to upper tier levels and you aren’t sure how he has improved?

How has that translated to winning? Which one of our players look better with this elite play making? Fox has been out the last 8 games. How have our guys benefited from this "play making blow up". Has any other Kings player really shined with Haliburtons assist boom?

Lets see - Over the last 8 games the Kings are 2-6 (wins against a tanking OKC team who benched the entire roster, and the Nets on an 8 game losing streak)

But sure, as I said, I agree his play making has advanced this year. Anything else?

So we should just ignore all the other flaws and pretend hes the 2nd coming of jesus because hes been hitting 10 assists per game. Doesn't matter that Boston beat us by 50, ATL had a 40 point swing on us, and we got blown out by the NYK who are 2-8 in their last 10.

Cool.

Is this a serious post?

A team full of veterans that is beaten down and has quit gets its *** kicked and you’re going to blame the youngster that is playing great and gives a damn?

That’s a take.

[DroseReturnChi]

Guess I’m in the minority that believes Sacramento won this trade. Sabonis is the best player in this deal and I believe will be for at least the next few years

I don't know if they won the trade, but I think pairing Fox with an elite screen setter is getting underrated.

if kings got robbed, then wtf is chicago's deal with a washed up vucevic giving up like 4 picks worth?
hali may prove this is a bad deal but this is not remotely the worst deal of this yr.
kings basically chose a direction to build around fox and sabonis instead of hali. you could bash kings but this is a lateral trade at worst with best player being from pg to pf who is basically a point forward.

[LightTheBeam]

So a second year PG has his play making blowing up to upper tier levels and you aren’t sure how he has improved?

How has that translated to winning? Which one of our players look better with this elite play making? Fox has been out the last 8 games. How have our guys benefited from this "play making blow up". Has any other Kings player really shined with Haliburtons assist boom?

Lets see - Over the last 8 games the Kings are 2-6 (wins against a tanking OKC team who benched the entire roster, and the Nets on an 8 game losing streak)

But sure, as I said, I agree his play making has advanced this year. Anything else?

So we should just ignore all the other flaws and pretend hes the 2nd coming of jesus because hes been hitting 10 assists per game. Doesn't matter that Boston beat us by 50, ATL had a 40 point swing on us, and we got blown out by the NYK who are 2-8 in their last 10.

Cool.

Is this a serious post?

A team full of veterans that is beaten down and has quit gets its *** kicked and you’re going to blame the youngster that is playing great and gives a damn?

That’s a take.

I get it man, you are emotional. We get attached to players and especially being in Sac guys usually don't want to be here, Haliburton did. I'm as pissed as the next guy. But get real.

So far you have just responded with 4 snarky posts in a row. No substance. I imagine you will need a few days to take everything in, maybe we can revisit with a convo then.

[runtmc]

Thanks for confirming what I thought. You haven’t been watching Hali and are just looking at stats to try and make an argument. Not interested in continuing with someone that doesn’t understand what they are saying.

Ah yes, the good old "you only look at stats, but I know better" response. The kind of person that thought the Lakers were going to coast to the finals because they got Westbrook. Did you miss the first paragraph where I didn't even mention stats?

I used stats to discuss the *trajectory* of their career, but again, what evidence is there that Haliburton is better in any category than Sabonis is right now?

You seem to think because you state an opinion everyone should just accept that as the truth without any reasoning or evidence to back it up. I've consistently shown why I think something and backed it up, you've yet to once. If you just want to put your opinion out there and don't want to discuss it, that's fine, but don't come back with some weak response about it being about "stats" as to why you won't respond and then acting like it's beneath you on top of it.

You haven’t watched Hali. That’s clear as day. You haven’t even tried to deny it. Lol.

Thanks for contributing random stats trying to prove your preconceived point.

You're right, I'm not trying to deny something I never claimed -- I'm not sure why you think that's a point in your favor. So, yeah, lol I guess? I watched him maybe 3-4 times last year, and 2-3 times this year. I never saw anything that disagrees with what the stats are saying. He's a good young player. You seem to think he's the second coming, but have yet to give any reason why, despite everything pointing to that not being the case.

As for "random" stats, literally what other stats would be more relevant to the conversation? I've asked several times for you to provide literally ANY reasoning, let alone stats, and you've still yet to. Could it be because there isn't any?

And lastly, as for "preconceived opinions", look, you clearly have a crush on Haliburton and I'm sorry your favorite player got traded, but I don't have a dog in this fight. I'm a GSW fan, I really don't care beyond it being an interesting trade to discuss. Clearly the only person with preconceived opinions is you, because you can't accept that your team won this trade because you lost your favorite player. I get why Sacramento fans always seem to think they're getting screwed, you guys have had horrible management for years now and Sac fans have deserved better for a long time. But this trade was a good thing for you guys. Your team got better. By a lot. Cheer up.

[DroseReturnChi]

It's quite comical how The Kings treated Haliburton, a guy who actually forced his way to the franchise and stated "he's going to change the direction & culture of the franchise". He was never given a fair shot to be the man, but even then he always produced. Whether it was Fox or Mitchell he was always pushed to be an off ball guard, when it's obvious he's a natural point guard.

I think getting out of Sacramento is absolutely going to be the best thing for Haliburton's career. IMO he's a star in the waiting. This trade is going to look foolish very soon IMO. There's a reason why the league is "stunned". You just don't trade a young stud like Haliburton who's trending upwards... especially for Sabonis.

if kings were that comical, then why did 29 freaking teams pass on him including the SPURS?
like come on most of the king bashers werent even fans of hali he played exactly like this in college like a 3 and D role player.
the worst thing for kings is missing on doncic trading hali is not even their worst moves. man sabonis disrespect he is getting like he is some washed up vucevic is comical.