LeBron James 2021-22 Regular Season Thread - Part ?

[trickshot]

LeBron + Davis + Westbrook:
-1.45 Net Rating
346 MP

LeBron + Davis, Westbrook Off:
-0.34 Net Rating
134 MP

Sure, Westbrook hasn’t been good and is a pretty awful fit on this roster, but the nonstop aggressive attacks and blame for the Laker’ failure this season that this dude has been getting from fans and media is so pathetic. This Lakers team sucks. They would suck without Westbrook. The role players are too old or just not that good. Davis and LeBron are playing well below their standards and their effort levels and defense aren’t there. Their lack of leadership and their passive aggressive attitudes aren’t helping anybody. I’ve never even been the biggest Russ fan but all of this is making me more sympathetic towards the guy. I hope LA trades him, just so people realize that the Lakers’ issues extend far beyond his play. It’s also hilarious how LeBron and David have been acting given they’re the ones who made the call to bring Russ in in the first place. Take some damn responsibility.

As someone who has been saying the roster sucks for a while those two things aren't mutually exclusive. The roster makes it so that the stars are operating on very slim margins but make no mistake Westbrook is falling well short of the required individual margin of contribution.

Lastly there have been no passive aggressive attacks from Lebron or AD or lack of leadership. This is Westbrook getting free victim points. They've backed him at every opportunity and done what they could. If you haven't noticed the coach was on the verge of being fired and it's Westbrook using passive aggressive attacks on the decision to bench him. Lebron has been trying to support Vogel but it's becoming a pick one situation because Westbrook makes no effort to run a single element of their defensive scheme. We can talk about Lebron and AD's defensive effort as well but they bring the goods on the other end.

This is just absolutely not true. When you watch them play on the court, I don’t know how you could come away from these games not noticing LeBron’s awful attitude on the court towards teammates when they miss shots or when there’s a team breakdown on the defensive end. Or when he and Davis don’t even bother getting back on defense because the Lakers didn’t score on offense. Just watch the Bucks game again last night alone. It happened constantly.

Attitude and team chemistry matters. It’s something I’ve come to appreciate more than ever watching my Cavs this season because it’s clear how much more energy guys play with when everybody believes in each other and likes each other. LeBron and Davis just haven’t been good leaders this season on the court, and off the court, they have no reason to be upset with anyone about the roster situation considering the huge role they played in it.

These are different points. No one thinks Lebron and AD aren't to blame for the Westbrook trade, there's really no point punctuating every sentence with it. It's known and established by now. They vouched for him.

About their defense I think it has been lacking but it's a bit of a stretch to call their lazy defense a passive aggressive attack on Westbrook who himself has the worst body language on defense. When he tries he actively hurts the team because of what his version of trying entails. The trade might be on Lebron/AD but Westbrook's play falls squarely on the shoulders of Westbrook. Another thing is are we really at the point where we're putting his poor play on subtle body language cues of others? AD's DPOY effort on defense fell off 15 months ago so that in particular has nothing to do with Westbrook.

[yoyoboy]

As someone who has been saying the roster sucks for a while those two things aren't mutually exclusive. The roster makes it so that the stars are operating on very slim margins but make no mistake Westbrook is falling well short of the required individual margin of contribution.

Lastly there have been no passive aggressive attacks from Lebron or AD or lack of leadership. This is Westbrook getting free victim points. They've backed him at every opportunity and done what they could. If you haven't noticed the coach was on the verge of being fired and it's Westbrook using passive aggressive attacks on the decision to bench him. Lebron has been trying to support Vogel but it's becoming a pick one situation because Westbrook makes no effort to run a single element of their defensive scheme. We can talk about Lebron and AD's defensive effort as well but they bring the goods on the other end.

This is just absolutely not true. When you watch them play on the court, I don’t know how you could come away from these games not noticing LeBron’s awful attitude on the court towards teammates when they miss shots or when there’s a team breakdown on the defensive end. Or when he and Davis don’t even bother getting back on defense because the Lakers didn’t score on offense. Just watch the Bucks game again last night alone. It happened constantly.

Attitude and team chemistry matters. It’s something I’ve come to appreciate more than ever watching my Cavs this season because it’s clear how much more energy guys play with when everybody believes in each other and likes each other. LeBron and Davis just haven’t been good leaders this season on the court, and off the court, they have no reason to be upset with anyone about the roster situation considering the huge role they played in it.

These are different points. No one thinks Lebron and AD aren't to blame for the Westbrook trade, there's really no point punctuating every sentence with it. It's known and established by now. They vouched for him.

About their defense I think it has been lacking but it's a bit of a stretch to call their lazy defense a passive aggressive attack on Westbrook who himself has the worst body language on defense. When he tries he actively hurts the team because of what his version of trying entails. The trade might be on Lebron/AD but Westbrook's play falls squarely on the shoulders of Westbrook. Another thing is are we really at the point where we're putting his poor play on subtle body language cues of others? AD's DPOY effort on defense fell off 15 months ago so that in particular has nothing to do with Westbrook.

It’s not at all subtle. It’s blatant and it’s constant. And it’s not about how it affects Westbrook’s play. It’s about how it affects the whole team’s play. The point is that the Lakers’ failures this season stem from much more than Russ, even though I acknowledge he hasn’t been good at all. LeBron and AD’s poor leadership, bad on-court attitude, and poor defense, along with the remainder of the roster being old and underwhelming obviously, would be leading to this team being bad even if Russ sat out the rest of the season.

[falcolombardi]

i am sorta opposed to body language criticism on prínciple

it makes it very easy to pick and Choose examples of a player you like/dislike having good/bad body language

it is not somethingh that can truly be proved or disproven and as such it leads to confirmación bias for people to Project their preconceived opinions, people Project what they thinl of someone good or bad

is why i am wary of the potential of doing (biased) armchair psychoanalisis without meaning to

[VanWest82]

i am sorta opposed to body language criticism on prínciple

it makes it very easy to pick and Choose examples of a player you like/dislike having good/bad body language

it is not somethingh that can truly be proved or disproven and as such it leads to confirmación bias for people to Project their preconceived opinions, people Project what they thinl of someone good or bad

is why i am wary of the potential of doing (biased) armchair psychoanalisis without meaning to

Whether someone has good or bad body language can be proven to a reasonable degree. The old 93/7 rule wasn't just conjured from nothing. This stuff has been studied.

I take your point about amateur psychologists picking and choosing to support their narratives but it's hard to completely dismiss the body language criticisms about Lebron specifically given they've been documented numerous times over different teams and circumstances (and I'm not even commenting on this Lakers team one way or the other, just pointing out that it's been a problem for him at times in the past).

In short, dismissing body language criticism out of hand probably doesn't make a lot of sense.

[yoyoboy]

i am sorta opposed to body language criticism on prínciple

it makes it very easy to pick and Choose examples of a player you like/dislike having good/bad body language

it is not somethingh that can truly be proved or disproven and as such it leads to confirmación bias for people to Project their preconceived opinions, people Project what they thinl of someone good or bad

is why i am wary of the potential of doing (biased) armchair psychoanalisis without meaning to

I mean to me it’s the exact opposite. You’re demanding quantitative evidence for something that obviously could never produce that, which just serves to shield a player you like from criticism because it can’t be proven with irrefutable statistics. It doesn’t mean it’s not clearly happening though, and it’s something everybody recognizes, even a lot of fans of LeBron. I’m literally one of them; I just don’t like how LeBron has acted this season. Something like not getting back on defense after missed shots extends far beyond body language anyways. You’re allowing a 5v4 or 5v3 fast break. LeBron tends to do it after missed shots by teammates and when he feels he should’ve gotten a call. And Davis does it because he falls after every missed layup and just takes all the time in the world getting back.

On defense in general, LeBron and Davis have both been poor this season and yet you still catch the glares from LeBron towards teammates when they’re at fault for breakdowns (or even when it’s arguably just as much his fault for a miscommunication), and I can’t take anyone seriously if they don’t think that impacts team chemistry. Furthermore, a couple years ago Rondo literally mentioned LeBron’s bad body language to him and the effect it has on the team, specifically the younger guys, so I take that as evidence that it is something that’s not worth dismissing.

LeBron is pegged by a lot of people as a floor raiser over his career but honestly, for this version of LeBron, I think it’s the exact opposite. I think when LeBron doesn’t have a cast around him that he’s satisfied with, his defense, leadership, and attitude tend to gradually go into the toilet. He didn’t suddenly become a better defender at 35 in the 2020 season compared to 2018 or 2019 for instance. He’s just willing to put in the effort and be a better leader when he has a very good team around him that he’s confident in. But when the going gets tough, I just don’t think the older LeBron is a guy who will lead by example and try to facilitate good team chemistry and always give a respectable effort. This isn’t a comment on LeBron’s career, because I believe this is only the case in recent years.

FWIW, LeBron’s -0.72 D-RAPM this year is the worst on the Lakers and it’s 11th percentile in the league as a whole. 2 years ago, in the 19-20 season, LeBron’s +2.24 D-RAPM was 99th percentile in the league. If anyone honestly thinks that 35 to 37 year old LeBron’s defense fell off that hard in 2 years simply due to a decline in athleticism, they’re kidding themselves. He simply doesn’t care to play defense on this roster most of the time and he isn’t trying.

[sp6r=underrated]

All-time scoring (regular season + playoffs):

Kareem: 44,149 (1,797 games)
LeBron: 44,101 (1,614 games)

In roughly two-games, LeBron will have scored more points than any other player in league history.

Kareem held that mark for 33 years, which is mind boggling.

[trickshot]

i am sorta opposed to body language criticism on prínciple

it makes it very easy to pick and Choose examples of a player you like/dislike having good/bad body language

it is not somethingh that can truly be proved or disproven and as such it leads to confirmación bias for people to Project their preconceived opinions, people Project what they thinl of someone good or bad

is why i am wary of the potential of doing (biased) armchair psychoanalisis without meaning to

I mean to me it’s the exact opposite. You’re demanding quantitative evidence for something that obviously could never produce that, which just serves to shield a player you like from criticism because it can’t be proven with irrefutable statistics. It doesn’t mean it’s not clearly happening though, and it’s something everybody recognizes, even a lot of fans of LeBron. I’m literally one of them; I just don’t like how LeBron has acted this season. Something like not getting back on defense after missed shots extends far beyond body language anyways. You’re allowing a 5v4 or 5v3 fast break. LeBron tends to do it after missed shots by teammates and when he feels he should’ve gotten a call. And Davis does it because he falls after every missed layup and just takes all the time in the world getting back.

On defense in general, LeBron and Davis have both been poor this season and yet you still catch the glares from LeBron towards teammates when they’re at fault for breakdowns (or even when it’s arguably just as much his fault for a miscommunication), and I can’t take anyone seriously if they don’t think that impacts team chemistry. Furthermore, a couple years ago Rondo literally mentioned LeBron’s bad body language to him and the effect it has on the team, specifically the younger guys, so I take that as evidence that it is something that’s not worth dismissing.

LeBron is pegged by a lot of people as a floor raiser over his career but honestly, for this version of LeBron, I think it’s the exact opposite. I think when LeBron doesn’t have a cast around him that he’s satisfied with, his defense, leadership, and attitude tend to gradually go into the toilet. He didn’t suddenly become a better defender at 35 in the 2020 season compared to 2018 or 2019 for instance. He’s just willing to put in the effort and be a better leader when he has a very good team around him that he’s confident in. But when the going gets tough, I just don’t think the older LeBron is a guy who will lead by example and try to facilitate good team chemistry and always give a respectable effort. This isn’t a comment on LeBron’s career, because I believe this is only the case in recent years.

FWIW, LeBron’s -0.72 D-RAPM this year is the worst on the Lakers and it’s 11th percentile in the league as a whole. 2 years ago, in the 19-20 season, LeBron’s +2.24 D-RAPM was 99th percentile in the league. If anyone honestly thinks that 35 to 37 year old LeBron’s defense fell off that hard in 2 years simply due to a decline in athleticism, they’re kidding themselves. He simply doesn’t care to play defense on this roster most of the time and he isn’t trying.

1. Defense
2. Body language

Two issues being conflated with each other. No one will doubt that Lebron and AD have played bad defense but the body language thing is subjective mindreading. Rondo told Lebron about his body language....en route to winning a title. It didn't seem to impact chemistry enough to hinder the team before Russ joined or when he glued the team in the bubble. He has moments of being a diva but the impact is being massively exaggerated. The historical examples you're giving don't even support what you've pointed to. All those teams made the finals even with Lebron's moments of bad body language. Lakers posted a top rated defense last season with AD mailing it. These things were present and they were still winning. What was the biggest change between then and now? A 44m Westbrook shaped hole in the roster that forced them to fill out with vet mins and cap allowances.

You've taken effects and twsted it with cause. Bpth guys didn't have bad body langiuage at the start and the Lakers and Westbrook still sucked regardless. Both guys have missed half the season so what's the reason for the other half? Their part in this is truly present but being greatly exaggerated. Their part starts and ends with making Pelinka gut the roster for Westbrook. We're talking freaking body language now. Of the things plaguing their season this is far far down the list.

[yoyoboy]

1. Defense
2. Body language

Two totally different issues being conflated with each other. Rondo told Lebron about his body language....en route to winning a title. It didn't seem to impact chemistry enough to hinder the team before Russ joined or when he glued the team in the bubble. He has moments of being a diva but the impact is being massively exaggerated. The historical examples you're giving don't even support what you've pointed to. All those teams made the finals even with Lebron's moments of bad body language. Lakers posted a top rated defense last season with AD mailing it. These things were present and they were still winning. What was the biggest change between then and now? A 44m Westbrook shaped hole in the roster that forced them to fill out with vet mins and cap allowances. You've taken the effects of a poor season and called it a cause.

I’m taking about both because they’re both relevant and I also think they go hand in hand because so much of defense is about guys being on the same page and giving good effort. Also, I don’t know how you can so confidently assert something you’re just wrong on. Rondo came to the team in the 2018-19 season. And his conversation with LeBron was about his body language during that season. It was reported as such, so this isn’t me just guessing. And the Lakers didn’t even make the playoffs that year. LeBron’s body language towards teammates and effort level on defense were significantly better the following year obviously. What about this season where the body language is awful and his defense. Do you think they have any chance of winning a title?

I’ve come to realize you really just can’t criticize LeBron at all in this thread. In the past I’ve argued the opposite when people would come here putting too much blame on him, but now I find myself understanding at least some of it. No one is saying that LeBron’s effort or passive aggressiveness are the reasons the Lakers aren’t contending. The point is that his awful defense, poor body language, and lack of leadership are not helping team chemistry/effort and negatively impact the team on the court, and it’s very clear that this version of LeBron just plays and acts differently depending on how satisfied he is with the roster. When things are going well, he can be the best player in the world and a great leader. When the roster isn’t up to par (even if a big part is by his own doing), he largely doesn’t care and it shows. But whatever, agree to disagree, and I’ll leave the echo chamber now.

[falcolombardi]

i am sorta opposed to body language criticism on prínciple

it makes it very easy to pick and Choose examples of a player you like/dislike having good/bad body language

it is not somethingh that can truly be proved or disproven and as such it leads to confirmación bias for people to Project their preconceived opinions, people Project what they thinl of someone good or bad

is why i am wary of the potential of doing (biased) armchair psychoanalisis without meaning to

I mean to me it’s the exact opposite. You’re demanding quantitative evidence for something that obviously could never produce that, which just serves to shield a player you like from criticism because it can’t be proven with irrefutable statistics. It doesn’t mean it’s not clearly happening though, and it’s something everybody recognizes, even a lot of fans of LeBron. I’m literally one of them; I just don’t like how LeBron has acted this season. Something like not getting back on defense after missed shots extends far beyond body language anyways. You’re allowing a 5v4 or 5v3 fast break. LeBron tends to do it after missed shots by teammates and when he feels he should’ve gotten a call. And Davis does it because he falls after every missed layup and just takes all the time in the world getting back.

On defense in general, LeBron and Davis have both been poor this season and yet you still catch the glares from LeBron towards teammates when they’re at fault for breakdowns (or even when it’s arguably just as much his fault for a miscommunication), and I can’t take anyone seriously if they don’t think that impacts team chemistry. Furthermore, a couple years ago Rondo literally mentioned LeBron’s bad body language to him and the effect it has on the team, specifically the younger guys, so I take that as evidence that it is something that’s not worth dismissing.

LeBron is pegged by a lot of people as a floor raiser over his career but honestly, for this version of LeBron, I think it’s the exact opposite. I think when LeBron doesn’t have a cast around him that he’s satisfied with, his defense, leadership, and attitude tend to gradually go into the toilet. He didn’t suddenly become a better defender at 35 in the 2020 season compared to 2018 or 2019 for instance. He’s just willing to put in the effort and be a better leader when he has a very good team around him that he’s confident in. But when the going gets tough, I just don’t think the older LeBron is a guy who will lead by example and try to facilitate good team chemistry and always give a respectable effort. This isn’t a comment on LeBron’s career, because I believe this is only the case in recent years.

FWIW, LeBron’s -0.72 D-RAPM this year is the worst on the Lakers and it’s 11th percentile in the league as a whole. 2 years ago, in the 19-20 season, LeBron’s +2.24 D-RAPM was 99th percentile in the league. If anyone honestly thinks that 35 to 37 year old LeBron’s defense fell off that hard in 2 years simply due to a decline in athleticism, they’re kidding themselves. He simply doesn’t care to play defense on this roster most of the time and he isn’t trying.

defense stats like drapm or not getting back on defense are more objective thinghs that are fair and needed to point out

i mean more when people look at, lets say, a player criticizing a teammate when he makes a mistake

and depending on whether they like the guy or not it can be spin as

a) a example of tough leadership holding teammates accountable

b) a example of bad leadership and cauaing bad chemistry

[falcolombardi]

1. Defense
2. Body language

Two totally different issues being conflated with each other. Rondo told Lebron about his body language....en route to winning a title. It didn't seem to impact chemistry enough to hinder the team before Russ joined or when he glued the team in the bubble. He has moments of being a diva but the impact is being massively exaggerated. The historical examples you're giving don't even support what you've pointed to. All those teams made the finals even with Lebron's moments of bad body language. Lakers posted a top rated defense last season with AD mailing it. These things were present and they were still winning. What was the biggest change between then and now? A 44m Westbrook shaped hole in the roster that forced them to fill out with vet mins and cap allowances. You've taken the effects of a poor season and called it a cause.

I’m taking about both because they’re both relevant and I also think they go hand in hand because so much of defense is about guys being on the same page and giving good effort. Also, I don’t know how you can so confidently assert something you’re just wrong on. Rondo came to the team in the 2018-19 season. And his conversation with LeBron was about his body language during that season. It was reported as such, so this isn’t me just guessing. And the Lakers didn’t even make the playoffs that year. LeBron’s body language towards teammates and effort level on defense were significantly better the following year obviously. What about this season where the body language is awful and his defense. Do you think they have any chance of winning a title?

I’ve come to realize you really just can’t criticize LeBron at all in this thread. In the past I’ve argued the opposite when people would come here putting too much blame on him, but now I find myself understanding at least some of it. No one is saying that LeBron’s effort or passive aggressiveness are the reasons the Lakers aren’t contending. The point is that his awful defense, poor body language, and lack of leadership are not helping team chemistry/effort and negatively impact the team on the court, and it’s very clear that this version of LeBron just plays and acts differently depending on how satisfied he is with the roster. When things are going well, he can be the best player in the world and a great leader. When the roster isn’t up to par (even if a big part is by his own doing), he largely doesn’t care and it shows. But whatever, agree to disagree, and I’ll leave the echo chamber now.

not to derail but are you sure the echo chamber comment at the end was granted?

i mean wrong or right he was not exactly being disrespectful or anythingh from what i read

is somethingh i see relatively often with people accusing each other kinda easily of being "haters", "fanboys", "echo chambers" etc, when they disagree with somethingh someone considers obvious

makes discussion hard both ways sometimes (both ways i mean for both the "defending" side and the "criticizing" side when it comes to a player)

i single you out in this case but is sometimes i may have done myself or many pósters in this thread at times, being too quick to see people with opinions opposite ours as fanboys or haters depending on how situation

[falcolombardi]

i am sorta opposed to body language criticism on prínciple

it makes it very easy to pick and Choose examples of a player you like/dislike having good/bad body language

it is not somethingh that can truly be proved or disproven and as such it leads to confirmación bias for people to Project their preconceived opinions, people Project what they thinl of someone good or bad

is why i am wary of the potential of doing (biased) armchair psychoanalisis without meaning to

Whether someone has good or bad body language can be proven to a reasonable degree. The old 93/7 rule wasn't just conjured from nothing. This stuff has been studied.

I take your point about amateur psychologists picking and choosing to support their narratives but it's hard to completely dismiss the body language criticisms about Lebron specifically given they've been documented numerous times over different teams and circumstances (and I'm not even commenting on this Lakers team one way or the other, just pointing out that it's been a problem for him at times in the past).

In short, dismissing body language criticism out of hand probably doesn't make a lot of sense.

is fair criticism, but i find it so subjective ans prone to personal bias that i dont get too much into it one way or the other unless is somethingh pretty clear and cut

[trickshot]

1. Defense
2. Body language

Two totally different issues being conflated with each other. Rondo told Lebron about his body language....en route to winning a title. It didn't seem to impact chemistry enough to hinder the team before Russ joined or when he glued the team in the bubble. He has moments of being a diva but the impact is being massively exaggerated. The historical examples you're giving don't even support what you've pointed to. All those teams made the finals even with Lebron's moments of bad body language. Lakers posted a top rated defense last season with AD mailing it. These things were present and they were still winning. What was the biggest change between then and now? A 44m Westbrook shaped hole in the roster that forced them to fill out with vet mins and cap allowances. You've taken the effects of a poor season and called it a cause.

I’m taking about both because they’re both relevant and I also think they go hand in hand because so much of defense is about guys being on the same page and giving good effort. Also, I don’t know how you can so confidently assert something you’re just wrong on. Rondo came to the team in the 2018-19 season. And his conversation with LeBron was about his body language during that season. It was reported as such, so this isn’t me just guessing. And the Lakers didn’t even make the playoffs that year. LeBron’s body language towards teammates and effort level on defense were significantly better the following year obviously. What about this season where the body language is awful and his defense. Do you think they have any chance of winning a title?

I’ve come to realize you really just can’t criticize LeBron at all in this thread. In the past I’ve argued the opposite when people would come here putting too much blame on him, but now I find myself understanding at least some of it. No one is saying that LeBron’s effort or passive aggressiveness are the reasons the Lakers aren’t contending. The point is that his awful defense, poor body language, and lack of leadership are not helping team chemistry/effort and negatively impact the team on the court, and it’s very clear that this version of LeBron just plays and acts differently depending on how satisfied he is with the roster. When things are going well, he can be the best player in the world and a great leader. When the roster isn’t up to par (even if a big part is by his own doing), he largely doesn’t care and it shows. But whatever, agree to disagree, and I’ll leave the echo chamber now.

Hold on, this started because you said Lebron and AD's on court demeanor were (partly) responsible for the Lakers season. No one disputed that their defense was bad or that they caused the Westbrook trade, the dispute was on citing body language of all things.

Also fair enough it was the 18-19 season, they actually still won a title together but I was wrong on that point regardless. Don't have a problem owning up when I get it wrong or when the point is reasonable. Let's also not make it to be that this is just about Lebron, it's also about AD's body language and leadership being brought into it despite missing so much of the season. The truth is the Lakers dysfunctional season is by far a large function of the Westbrook trade then his play, then the roster comes second. The other stars are far down the list.

[trickshot]

1. Defense
2. Body language

Two totally different issues being conflated with each other. Rondo told Lebron about his body language....en route to winning a title. It didn't seem to impact chemistry enough to hinder the team before Russ joined or when he glued the team in the bubble. He has moments of being a diva but the impact is being massively exaggerated. The historical examples you're giving don't even support what you've pointed to. All those teams made the finals even with Lebron's moments of bad body language. Lakers posted a top rated defense last season with AD mailing it. These things were present and they were still winning. What was the biggest change between then and now? A 44m Westbrook shaped hole in the roster that forced them to fill out with vet mins and cap allowances. You've taken the effects of a poor season and called it a cause.

I’m taking about both because they’re both relevant and I also think they go hand in hand because so much of defense is about guys being on the same page and giving good effort. Also, I don’t know how you can so confidently assert something you’re just wrong on. Rondo came to the team in the 2018-19 season. And his conversation with LeBron was about his body language during that season. It was reported as such, so this isn’t me just guessing. And the Lakers didn’t even make the playoffs that year. LeBron’s body language towards teammates and effort level on defense were significantly better the following year obviously. What about this season where the body language is awful and his defense. Do you think they have any chance of winning a title?

I’ve come to realize you really just can’t criticize LeBron at all in this thread. In the past I’ve argued the opposite when people would come here putting too much blame on him, but now I find myself understanding at least some of it. No one is saying that LeBron’s effort or passive aggressiveness are the reasons the Lakers aren’t contending. The point is that his awful defense, poor body language, and lack of leadership are not helping team chemistry/effort and negatively impact the team on the court, and it’s very clear that this version of LeBron just plays and acts differently depending on how satisfied he is with the roster. When things are going well, he can be the best player in the world and a great leader. When the roster isn’t up to par (even if a big part is by his own doing), he largely doesn’t care and it shows. But whatever, agree to disagree, and I’ll leave the echo chamber now.

not to derail but are you sure the echo chamber comment at the end was granted?

i mean wrong or right he was not exactly being disrespectful or anythingh from what i read

is somethingh i see relatively often with people accusing each other kinda easily of being "haters", "fanboys", "echo chambers" etc, makes discussion hard both ways sometimes (both ways i mean for both the "defending" side and the "criticizing" side when it comes to a player)

couldn't care less about the sensitive stuff. He has to be open to dissent. Lebron' and AD's defense are bad. no dissent, Lebron/AD are why the Lakers traded for Westbrook and ruined the Lakers. No dissent. Lebron/AD's bad body language is related to their current position, then dissent comes and all of a sudden it's an echo chamber.

[zimpy27]

LeBron + Davis + Westbrook:
-1.45 Net Rating
346 MP

LeBron + Davis, Westbrook Off:
-0.34 Net Rating
134 MP

Sure, Westbrook hasn’t been good and is a pretty awful fit on this roster, but the nonstop aggressive attacks and blame for the Laker’ failure this season that this dude has been getting from fans and media is so pathetic. This Lakers team sucks. They would suck without Westbrook. The role players are too old or just not that good. Davis and LeBron are playing well below their standards and their effort levels and defense aren’t there. Their lack of leadership and their passive aggressive attitudes aren’t helping anybody. I’ve never even been the biggest Russ fan but all of this is making me more sympathetic towards the guy. I hope LA trades him, just so people realize that the Lakers’ issues extend far beyond his play. It’s also hilarious how LeBron and David have been acting given they’re the ones who made the call to bring Russ in in the first place. Take some damn responsibility.

Been stating this on here since the start of the year.

I'm off the Westbrook bandwagon because his finishing has been awful, the man can't make a shot.

But, he's not the main problem (though he's part of it). The main problem on the team is that the supporting cast is a bad fit for the 3 big contracts. The team construction is awful and I can only assume the FO don't have a good handle over their players strengths and weaknesses.

Ultimately Lakers need 3-4 athletic guys that can defend without fouling, rebound well for their position and can space the floor. Lakers don't have any of these guys (maybe you could argue that Monk and Reaves are close but they lack experience). Instead the Lakers have elite defensive guys with no offense or guys that can shoot but do nothing else well.

[falcolombardi]

LeBron + Davis + Westbrook:
-1.45 Net Rating
346 MP

LeBron + Davis, Westbrook Off:
-0.34 Net Rating
134 MP

Sure, Westbrook hasn’t been good and is a pretty awful fit on this roster, but the nonstop aggressive attacks and blame for the Laker’ failure this season that this dude has been getting from fans and media is so pathetic. This Lakers team sucks. They would suck without Westbrook. The role players are too old or just not that good. Davis and LeBron are playing well below their standards and their effort levels and defense aren’t there. Their lack of leadership and their passive aggressive attitudes aren’t helping anybody. I’ve never even been the biggest Russ fan but all of this is making me more sympathetic towards the guy. I hope LA trades him, just so people realize that the Lakers’ issues extend far beyond his play. It’s also hilarious how LeBron and David have been acting given they’re the ones who made the call to bring Russ in in the first place. Take some damn responsibility.

Been stating this on here since the start of the year.

I'm off the Westbrook bandwagon because his finishing has been awful, the man can't make a shot.

But, he's not the main problem (though he's part of it). The main problem on the team is that the supporting cast is a bad fit for the 3 big contracts. The team construction is awful and I can only assume the FO don't have a good handle over their players strengths and weaknesses.

Ultimately Lakers need 3-4 athletic guys that can defend without fouling, rebound well for their position and can space the floor. Lakers don't have any of these guys (maybe you could argue that Monk and Reaves are close but they lack experience). Instead the Lakers have elite defensive guys with no offense or guys that can shoot but do nothing else well.

in other words they needed caruso, kuzma and kcp (harrel probably not the best fit but still useful)

they made the same mistake as 2011 mavs of trying to change somethingh that worked

[zimpy27]

LeBron + Davis + Westbrook:
-1.45 Net Rating
346 MP

LeBron + Davis, Westbrook Off:
-0.34 Net Rating
134 MP

Sure, Westbrook hasn’t been good and is a pretty awful fit on this roster, but the nonstop aggressive attacks and blame for the Laker’ failure this season that this dude has been getting from fans and media is so pathetic. This Lakers team sucks. They would suck without Westbrook. The role players are too old or just not that good. Davis and LeBron are playing well below their standards and their effort levels and defense aren’t there. Their lack of leadership and their passive aggressive attitudes aren’t helping anybody. I’ve never even been the biggest Russ fan but all of this is making me more sympathetic towards the guy. I hope LA trades him, just so people realize that the Lakers’ issues extend far beyond his play. It’s also hilarious how LeBron and David have been acting given they’re the ones who made the call to bring Russ in in the first place. Take some damn responsibility.

Been stating this on here since the start of the year.

I'm off the Westbrook bandwagon because his finishing has been awful, the man can't make a shot.

But, he's not the main problem (though he's part of it). The main problem on the team is that the supporting cast is a bad fit for the 3 big contracts. The team construction is awful and I can only assume the FO don't have a good handle over their players strengths and weaknesses.

Ultimately Lakers need 3-4 athletic guys that can defend without fouling, rebound well for their position and can space the floor. Lakers don't have any of these guys (maybe you could argue that Monk and Reaves are close but they lack experience). Instead the Lakers have elite defensive guys with no offense or guys that can shoot but do nothing else well.

in other words they needed caruso, kuzma and kcp (harrel probably not the best fit but still useful)

they made the same mistake as 2011 mavs of trying to change somethingh that worked

Yeah pretty much, Caruso was the big one, then Green, then KCP, then Schroder. Kuzma and Harrell would have been fine to be rid of, neither are great impact rebounders they are more like Westbrook where they pick off the low hanging fruit.


Impact rebounding is about getting the rebounds that don't just fall in the lap of the big underneath the basket. The hard to get ones that usually sway the rebound numbers between two competing teams. Boxing out is the key and the guys with the best impact numbers are usually excellent at boxing out. Steven Adams and Capela top the lists usually.

[zimpy27]

At this point the best realistic Westbrook trade that I'd consider being good enough to push Lakers into contention is this one.

PHI trade Harris+Green+PHI22FRP and get Dragic+Bazemore
Philly get out of the Harris contract for a late FRP and get expiring in return which sets them up well to add Harden

TOR trade Dragic and get Favors+LAL23SRP+CHI23SRP
Raps get compensation and a big in exchange for Dragic

OKC trade Favors+Kenrich and get Westbrook+Jordan+PHI22FRP+LAL27FRP
OKC get 2 FRPs for taking on Westbrooks contract while giving up Kenrich and Favors.

LAL trade Westbrook+Bazemore+Jordan+LAL27FRP+LAL23SRP+CHI23SRP and get Harris+Green+Kenrich
Lakers get a proper team.
Nunn, Green, LeBron, Harris, Davis -- Bradley, Monk, Reaves, Kenrich, Melo

[falcolombardi]

At this point the best realistic Westbrook trade that I'd consider being good enough to push Lakers into contention is this one.

PHI trade Harris+Green+PHI22FRP and get Dragic+Bazemore
Philly get out of the Harris contract for a late FRP and get expiring in return which sets them up well to add Harden

TOR trade Dragic and get Favors+LAL23SRP+CHI23SRP
Raps get compensation and a big in exchange for Dragic

OKC trade Favors+Kenrich and get Westbrook+Jordan+PHI22FRP+LAL27FRP
OKC get 2 FRPs for taking on Westbrooks contract while giving up Kenrich and Favors.

LAL trade Westbrook+Bazemore+Jordan+LAL27FRP+LAL23SRP+CHI23SRP and get Harris+Green+Kenrich
Lakers get a proper team.
Nunn, Green, LeBron, Harris, Davis -- Bradley, Monk, Reaves, Kenrich, Melo

uff, i would love that for okc and lakers (i would miss kenrich tho, okc needs to keep guys like him around)

not sure it makes sense for sixers since they probably can get somethingh more useful for harris

[zimpy27]

At this point the best realistic Westbrook trade that I'd consider being good enough to push Lakers into contention is this one.

PHI trade Harris+Green+PHI22FRP and get Dragic+Bazemore
Philly get out of the Harris contract for a late FRP and get expiring in return which sets them up well to add Harden

TOR trade Dragic and get Favors+LAL23SRP+CHI23SRP
Raps get compensation and a big in exchange for Dragic

OKC trade Favors+Kenrich and get Westbrook+Jordan+PHI22FRP+LAL27FRP
OKC get 2 FRPs for taking on Westbrooks contract while giving up Kenrich and Favors.

LAL trade Westbrook+Bazemore+Jordan+LAL27FRP+LAL23SRP+CHI23SRP and get Harris+Green+Kenrich
Lakers get a proper team.
Nunn, Green, LeBron, Harris, Davis -- Bradley, Monk, Reaves, Kenrich, Melo

uff, i would love that for okc and lakers (i would miss kenrich tho, okc needs to keep guys like him around)

not sure it makes sense for sixers since they probably can get somethingh more useful for harris

- Could easily be Muscala instead of Kenrich for OKC to give.

- 76ers are after expiring, if they get expirings then they can strongarm Nets into an SnT that favours them immensely. This is because they can clear enough space to sign Harden outright if they move Simmons into capspace for picks. So if Nets want Simmons then they need give Harden and assets. It's a beautiful setup to weaken Nets and strengthen Philly. I think even just the fear of this type of deal happening is what is driving the Nets to maybe deal Harden now instead of wait for offseason.

[falcolombardi]

At this point the best realistic Westbrook trade that I'd consider being good enough to push Lakers into contention is this one.

PHI trade Harris+Green+PHI22FRP and get Dragic+Bazemore
Philly get out of the Harris contract for a late FRP and get expiring in return which sets them up well to add Harden

TOR trade Dragic and get Favors+LAL23SRP+CHI23SRP
Raps get compensation and a big in exchange for Dragic

OKC trade Favors+Kenrich and get Westbrook+Jordan+PHI22FRP+LAL27FRP
OKC get 2 FRPs for taking on Westbrooks contract while giving up Kenrich and Favors.

LAL trade Westbrook+Bazemore+Jordan+LAL27FRP+LAL23SRP+CHI23SRP and get Harris+Green+Kenrich
Lakers get a proper team.
Nunn, Green, LeBron, Harris, Davis -- Bradley, Monk, Reaves, Kenrich, Melo

uff, i would love that for okc and lakers (i would miss kenrich tho, okc needs to keep guys like him around)

not sure it makes sense for sixers since they probably can get somethingh more useful for harris

- Could easily be Muscala instead of Kenrich for OKC to give.

- 76ers are after expiring, if they get expirings then they can strongarm Nets into an SnT that favours them immensely. This is because they can clear enough space to sign Harden outright if they move Simmons into capspace for picks. So if Nets want Simmons then they need give Harden and assets. It's a beautiful setup to weaken Nets and strengthen Philly. I think even just the fear of this type of deal happening is what is driving the Nets to maybe deal Harden now instead of wait for offseason.

ohh that makes sense but i wonder if trading harris doesnt signal sixers giving up on this season if the harden trade doesnt get done? not thay they are favorites but harris is arguably their second best player

seems like trading him would be officially punting on this year (admittedly low) chances of a title run