Pete Maravich vs Dennis Johnson

[durantbird]

Who's higher all time?

[Statlanta]

Dennis Johnson. He contributed more to the game of basketball with his role on teams in the 70's and 80's.

[kcktiny]

Pete Maravich was a great scorer and passer, and fun to watch.

But Dennis Johnson was a great defender and likely the best all-around guard in the late 70s/early 80s. He was all-NBA 1st team in 1980-81, all-NBA 2nd team in 1979-80. But could have easily been named all-NBA 1st team 79-80 to 81-82 and no one would have flinched. Just 6-4 but had the nickname "Airplane".

That Sonics backcourt of D.J. and Gus Williams of the late 70s I don't think gets enough credit for being one of the best of all-time.

[Cavsfansince84]

I think a lot of the late 70's players get underrated to some degree. Went with DJ quite easily here. I think I had him at like 90-95 on my top 100 while Pete I gave very little consideration to.

[penbeast0]

Pete Maravich was a great scorer and passer, and fun to watch.

But Dennis Johnson was a great defender and likely the best all-around guard in the late 70s/early 80s. He was all-NBA 1st team in 1980-81, all-NBA 2nd team in 1979-80. But could have easily been named all-NBA 1st team 79-80 to 81-82 and no one would have flinched. Just 6-4 but had the nickname "Airplane".

That Sonics backcourt of D.J. and Gus Williams of the late 70s I don't think gets enough credit for being one of the best of all-time.

I would go with "Pete Maravich was a flashy inefficient high volume shooter and turnover machine during his prime. Dennis Johnson was a consistently very good, occasionally great defender and a big guard who could play the point, not a great scorer or playmaker and had some issues with coaches early on but seemed to mature well with the Celtics."

DJ was also in my radar at the tail end of the top 100 list; prime Maravich was the kind of player you get if you want someone to lead the tank.

[Ryoga Hibiki]

Pete Maravich was a great scorer and passer, and fun to watch.

But Dennis Johnson was a great defender and likely the best all-around guard in the late 70s/early 80s. He was all-NBA 1st team in 1980-81, all-NBA 2nd team in 1979-80. But could have easily been named all-NBA 1st team 79-80 to 81-82 and no one would have flinched. Just 6-4 but had the nickname "Airplane".

That Sonics backcourt of D.J. and Gus Williams of the late 70s I don't think gets enough credit for being one of the best of all-time.

I would go with "Pete Maravich was a flashy inefficient high volume shooter and turnover machine during his prime. Dennis Johnson was a consistently very good, occasionally great defender and a big guard who could play the point, not a great scorer or playmaker and had some issues with coaches early on but seemed to mature well with the Celtics."

DJ was also in my radar at the tail end of the top 100 list; prime Maravich was the kind of player you get if you want someone to lead the tank.

actually Maravich was almost the ideal tank commander.
he could entertain the crowd while making sure you would have a losing season

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[Dutchball97]

Maravich might just be the most overrated player in NBA history, I'd take Dennis Johnson over him easily.

[penbeast0]

I have a challenge. Can you name anyone who has made 3 or more All-Star teams since 1980 that you think was a worse player than Maravich?

[Owly]

I have a challenge. Can you name anyone who has made 3 or more All-Star teams since 1980 that you think was a worse player than Maravich?

Without going too deep in searching players (just glanced at a circa a decade old spreadsheet) or comparing deeply or indeed checking for errors (have these guys made the appearances) ...

Antoine Walker and Vin Baker pop as candidates.

[70sFan]

I have a challenge. Can you name anyone who has made 3 or more All-Star teams since 1980 that you think was a worse player than Maravich?

Walker was definitely worse in my opinion. Pete is extremely overrated historically, but he wasn't bad player in New Orleans.

[HeartBreakKid]

im upset because now i remember antoine walker

[penbeast0]

I have a challenge. Can you name anyone who has made 3 or more All-Star teams since 1980 that you think was a worse player than Maravich?

Without going too deep in searching players (just glanced at a circa a decade old spreadsheet) or comparing deeply or indeed checking for errors (have these guys made the appearances) ...

Antoine Walker and Vin Baker pop as candidates.

I'd say Baker was a better player before his alcohol issues destroyed his career. Antoine? Well, yeah, he might have been worse.

[Owly]

I have a challenge. Can you name anyone who has made 3 or more All-Star teams since 1980 that you think was a worse player than Maravich?

Without going too deep in searching players (just glanced at a circa a decade old spreadsheet) or comparing deeply or indeed checking for errors (have these guys made the appearances) ...

Antoine Walker and Vin Baker pop as candidates.

I'd say Baker was a better player before his alcohol issues destroyed his career. Antoine? Well, yeah, he might have been worse.

I don't know about the comp. As I say I haven't looked closely.

Baker's 87-14 RAPM and 97 to retirement On-Off are slight negatives. He's got two years where his box production is semi-notable

PER, WS/48, BPM
97: 20.1, .127, 2.0
98: 20.4, .169, 1.0
But these aren't that special (especially for a big) and there's not some clear signal of impact.

His '96 (probably his third most productive year, and outside the play-by-play samples) on-off is awful (-13.6 for a-2.89 estimated RAPM or a -3.21 estimated RAPM "adj[usted] w/variance"). Then too that years Barry Bible gives him a C on defense and the detail sounds worse saying he doesn't keep his man off the glass, fight for position on the block, contest shots or provide help and needs to "learn how to win ... Translated: do the little things - defense every night, block his man off the boards, get back on defense."

There's only one year that on-off stuff really likes and it's '99 when his box production is horrible, he misses a chunk of the season all the other full-on bigs (so excluding Schrempf, though he can play some PF) are bad and it's pretty clear there's some collinearity going on because Schrempf, Hawkins and Payton are all in the same range [Schrempf clearly above all the others]. "A Screaming ..." RAPM seems to suggest this too with Schrempf and Hawkins way out ahead of him in NPI and the Prior Informed version being worse for Baker calling him a slight negative. Also the non-core roster members are unstable.

Baker looked okay when all we looked at was "he's a 20 and 10 guy", which he could do playing 40 minutes a night. To me, I don't think there's too much saying he was ever notably good or impactful.

[trex_8063]

I would go with "Pete Maravich was a flashy inefficient high volume shooter and turnover machine during his prime. Dennis Johnson was a consistently very good, occasionally great defender and a big guard who could play the point, not a great scorer or playmaker and had some issues with coaches early on but seemed to mature well with the Celtics."

.

I'd agree with all of this while adding Maravich was also one of the poorest defenders I've ever seen, and noting that DJ crushes him in longevity as well.

I don't have DJ in my top 100 (he really wasn't all that close for me either), but I'm not sure I'd have Maravich anywhere in my top 250 at this point.

[kendogg]

DJ was a better teammate in his career and could even argue had a more successful career, but as to who is more talented it is unquestionably Maravich. DJ was a great defensive player and a solid guard offensively, but is in terms of skillset a very borderline HOF level player. He probably would not be in the HOF if he wasn't lucky enough to end up on the Celtics during that dynasty run. Not that he didn't contribute, but a number of other players in the league could have filled his role adequately.

Maravich was a generational talent who was ostracized due to his psycho father. He was labelled a ball hog bad teammate before he even played a game in the NBA, because his father was his college coach and let him do whatever he wanted on the court. If he had ended up with a team that had a veteran star to guide him, it could have been a much different story. His career was cut short due to his alcohol problems, which his mother also suffered from and died from due to their father. Ironically, Maravich could have had Dennis Johnson's spot on the Celtics dynasty if he stuck around and didn't retire to his personal issues.

Look at a guy like Kyrie Irving. Dude is supremely talented but he's also a headcase. Yet he won with LeBron James because he respected and listened to James. Of course then he let his stupid friends get into his stupid head that he could be the man on his own team and we've seen how that turned out. But Kyrie in the right situation is a top 10 player in the league and borderline MVP talent.

I don't think Maravich is as stupid as Kyrie is though, Pete was just abused psychologically by his dad. Maravich was the best ball handler of his era, had the potential to be the best passer of his era(if he got along with his teammates) and probably the best shooter of his era as well...he just too way too many questionable shots, and some of that was because often he had no help and was forced to.

Dennis Johnson is a supremely good role player really or low level all-star. He's a great teammate and someone you'd love to have on your team, but he's not going to be one of the 2 best players on a contender. He was the 4th best player on the Celtics.

[70sFan]

Dennis Johnson is a supremely good role player really or low level all-star. He's a great teammate and someone you'd love to have on your team, but he's not going to be one of the 2 best players on a contender. He was the 4th best player on the Celtics.

Well, if you judge DJ on his career with Celtics then I can understand that. Johnson peaked way earlier though, he had his best seasons in Sonics and Suns.

[kendogg]

Dennis Johnson is a supremely good role player really or low level all-star. He's a great teammate and someone you'd love to have on your team, but he's not going to be one of the 2 best players on a contender. He was the 4th best player on the Celtics.

Well, if you judge DJ on his career with Celtics then I can understand that. Johnson peaked way earlier though, he had his best seasons in Sonics and Suns.

Thanks Captain Obvious I was talking about his career though. He was a low level all star earlier in his career, and a high powered role player on the Celtics.

[70sFan]

Dennis Johnson is a supremely good role player really or low level all-star. He's a great teammate and someone you'd love to have on your team, but he's not going to be one of the 2 best players on a contender. He was the 4th best player on the Celtics.

Well, if you judge DJ on his career with Celtics then I can understand that. Johnson peaked way earlier though, he had his best seasons in Sonics and Suns.

Thanks Captain Obvious I was talking about his career though. He was a low level all star earlier in his career, and a high powered role player on the Celtics.

You said that he couldn't be one of 2 best players on contender, which is not true. I guess it's tough to pick 2 best players of 1978-80 Sonics team (they were built a bit like 2000s Pistons with no clear superstar) but DJ certainly was very important for them (probably fighting for second spot with Sikma). Then he was probably the best (or 2nd best next to Davis) player on very strong 1981-83 Suns teams.

DJ had his share of weaknesses and he wasn't a superstar, but I think he was capable of being more than a 4th best player on contender. He basically proved it in his career.

[kendogg]

Well, if you judge DJ on his career with Celtics then I can understand that. Johnson peaked way earlier though, he had his best seasons in Sonics and Suns.

Thanks Captain Obvious I was talking about his career though. He was a low level all star earlier in his career, and a high powered role player on the Celtics.

You said that he couldn't be one of 2 best players on contender, which is not true. I guess it's tough to pick 2 best players of 1978-80 Sonics team (they were built a bit like 2000s Pistons with no clear superstar) but DJ certainly was very important for them (probably fighting for second spot with Sikma). Then he was probably the best (or 2nd best next to Davis) player on very strong 1981-83 Suns teams.

DJ had his share of weaknesses and he wasn't a superstar, but I think he was capable of being more than a 4th best player on contender. He basically proved it in his career.

You're jumping to your own conclusions. The Celtics role is merely a statement of fact. My point is that he's a low level all-star to high level role player. Maravich peaked higher despite him never being in a great situation during his peak. He never had a mentor that wasn't his psycho dad.

[70sFan]

Thanks Captain Obvious I was talking about his career though. He was a low level all star earlier in his career, and a high powered role player on the Celtics.

You said that he couldn't be one of 2 best players on contender, which is not true. I guess it's tough to pick 2 best players of 1978-80 Sonics team (they were built a bit like 2000s Pistons with no clear superstar) but DJ certainly was very important for them (probably fighting for second spot with Sikma). Then he was probably the best (or 2nd best next to Davis) player on very strong 1981-83 Suns teams.

DJ had his share of weaknesses and he wasn't a superstar, but I think he was capable of being more than a 4th best player on contender. He basically proved it in his career.

You're jumping to your own conclusions. The Celtics role is merely a statement of fact. My point is that he's a low level all-star to high level role player. Maravich peaked higher despite him never being in a great situation during his peak. He never had a mentor that wasn't his psycho dad.

I don't think Pete peaked higher though, that's the point. I'd comfortably call Johnson an all-star at his best, I'm not that comfortable with Maravich.

Pete was in great situation in Atlanta. He got drafted by one of the best teams in the league with excellent coach and many veterans. Pete didn't get better though and Atlanta actually got worse. In contrast, DJ make a noise very quickly on a solid Seattle team and he competed for the title with them after a year of adjustment. DJ would turn Atlanta into much better team than Maravich did. In contrast, none of the Johnson teams would be better with Pete in his place.