2021-22 NBA MVP Discussion (Pt.2)

[yoyoboy]

It's interesting to see that a guy who's putting up 27-9-9 and whose team is 33-23 is barely mentioned among the 5 best players of the season.

He’s slowly rising for me, but the issue for Luka is that the team really isn’t that good with him on (+3.5) the court and they’re also slightly better with him off versus on (-0.4 on-off). When he’s also not been a huge contributor the primary reason for the Mavs’ success this year, their top 5 defense rather than their 16th ranked offense, it’s hard for me to justify putting him above the guys I have ahead of him. Doncic really wasn’t very impactful for the first couple months of the season imo and has only started coming on as of late as he’s gotten into better shape. Finally, he’s missed 15 games. That’s over a quarter of the season and matters when you’re comparing a lot of guys who have all been playing at high levels.

[bradybunch]

It's interesting to see that a guy who's putting up 27-9-9 and whose team is 33-23 is barely mentioned among the 5 best players of the season.

He’s slowly rising for me, but the issue for Luka is that the team really isn’t that good with him on (+3.5) the court and they’re also slightly better with him off versus on (-0.4 on-off). When he’s also not been a huge contributor the primary reason for the Mavs’ success this year, their top 5 defense rather than their 16th ranked offense, it’s hard for me to justify putting him above the guys I have ahead of him. Doncic really wasn’t very impactful for the first couple months of the season imo and has only started coming on as of late as he’s gotten into better shape. Finally, he’s missed 15 games. That’s over a quarter of the season and matters when you’re comparing a lot of guys who have all been playing at high levels.

They're 6-9 without him.

27-14 with him.

[yoyoboy]

It's interesting to see that a guy who's putting up 27-9-9 and whose team is 33-23 is barely mentioned among the 5 best players of the season.

He’s slowly rising for me, but the issue for Luka is that the team really isn’t that good with him on (+3.5) the court and they’re also slightly better with him off versus on (-0.4 on-off). When he’s also not been a huge contributor the primary reason for the Mavs’ success this year, their top 5 defense rather than their 16th ranked offense, it’s hard for me to justify putting him above the guys I have ahead of him. Doncic really wasn’t very impactful for the first couple months of the season imo and has only started coming on as of late as he’s gotten into better shape. Finally, he’s missed 15 games. That’s over a quarter of the season and matters when you’re comparing a lot of guys who have all been playing at high levels.

They're 6-9 without him.

27-14 with him.

A 15 game sample size is too small to just bring up raw W-L. The Wizards, for example had the 2nd best record in the East 15 games in despite having an SRS that was either negative or barely positive if I recall correctly. SRS is more predictive in small samples since a couple games decided by a few points can really swing things in either direction, not to mention competition plays a role. I would be curious to know what the Mavs’ SRS/Net Rating is during that stretch without Luka.

Furthermore, missing 15 games also works against him. Sure it can help show your value, but when you’re not on the court, you’re not providing any value at all to your team. 27% of the season is a lot of time missed and that’s a factor for me.

[Bobbcats]

I honestly didn't realize Luka has turned it up so much lately. Meanwhile still baffled why Curry is so sticky at the top with some people putting him in top 3

[Statlanta]

I honestly didn't realize Luka has turned it up so much lately. Meanwhile still baffled why Curry is so sticky at the top with some people putting him in top 3

They are winning without Draymond, most people assume he's the DPOY of this top defense. Curry's getting the "without Draymond" narrative along with the best record narrative.

[hisairness]

I honestly didn't realize Luka has turned it up so much lately. Meanwhile still baffled why Curry is so sticky at the top with some people putting him in top 3

They are winning without Draymond, most people assume he's the DPOY of this top defense. Curry's getting the "without Draymond" narrative along with the best record narrative.

During that 9 game win streak the only wins that could be considered quality were home wins vs Mavs, Twolves, and Jazz without Mitchell. They had close games against bad teams and definitely don't look anywhere close to as dominant as they did early in the season.

[ty 4191]

All this vague/nonsensical talk about "narratives". Is this a popularity/hype award, or, it is for the most valuable/greatest player in the NBA?

[eyeatoma]

All this vague/nonsensical talk about "narratives". Is this a popularity/hype award, or, it is for the most valuable/greatest player in the NBA?

If it's the greatest player in the NBA, LeBron would have won it about 15 times. So that should answer your question.

[ty 4191]

If it's the greatest player in the NBA, LeBron would have won it about 15 times. So that should answer your question.

So it's the Hype + Bullsh*t Award, then. No wonder this poll is even remotely close between Jokic and everyone else.

Also, Lebron "only" led in:

-PER 6 times
-WS & WS/48 5 times
-BPM 7 times
-VORP 8 times

No way in hell was he the most valuable/greatest player in the NBA 15 different years.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

He’s slowly rising for me, but the issue for Luka is that the team really isn’t that good with him on (+3.5) the court and they’re also slightly better with him off versus on (-0.4 on-off). When he’s also not been a huge contributor the primary reason for the Mavs’ success this year, their top 5 defense rather than their 16th ranked offense, it’s hard for me to justify putting him above the guys I have ahead of him. Doncic really wasn’t very impactful for the first couple months of the season imo and has only started coming on as of late as he’s gotten into better shape. Finally, he’s missed 15 games. That’s over a quarter of the season and matters when you’re comparing a lot of guys who have all been playing at high levels.

They're 6-9 without him.

27-14 with him.

A 15 game sample size is too small to just bring up raw W-L. The Wizards, for example had the 2nd best record in the East 15 games in despite having an SRS that was either negative or barely positive if I recall correctly. SRS is more predictive in small samples since a couple games decided by a few points can really swing things in either direction, not to mention competition plays a role. I would be curious to know what the Mavs’ SRS/Net Rating is during that stretch without Luka.

Furthermore, missing 15 games also works against him. Sure it can help show your value, but when you’re not on the court, you’re not providing any value at all to your team. 27% of the season is a lot of time missed and that’s a factor for me.

They actual outscored the other teams, cumulatively, over that 15 game stretch. Just look up Doncic on bbal ref and check out his inactive games. They lost a lot of close ones, blew teams out in pretty much every win, outscored the other teams easily overall (cumulatively) and went 6-9. Limited samples indeed.

[eyeatoma]

If it's the greatest player in the NBA, LeBron would have won it about 15 times. So that should answer your question.

So it's the Hype + Bullsh*t Award, then. No wonder this poll is even remotely close between Jokic and everyone else.

Also, Lebron "only" led in:

-PER 6 times
-WS & WS/48 5 times
-BPM 7 times
-VORP 8 times

No way in hell was he the most valuable/greatest player in the NBA 15 different years.

LeBron or Jordan is the Goat. Sorry to burst your bubble, but once again not everything has to do with advanced stats. This is pretty much a consensus take as well. It's between those two.

[yoyoboy]

They're 6-9 without him.

27-14 with him.

A 15 game sample size is too small to just bring up raw W-L. The Wizards, for example had the 2nd best record in the East 15 games in despite having an SRS that was either negative or barely positive if I recall correctly. SRS is more predictive in small samples since a couple games decided by a few points can really swing things in either direction, not to mention competition plays a role. I would be curious to know what the Mavs’ SRS/Net Rating is during that stretch without Luka.

Furthermore, missing 15 games also works against him. Sure it can help show your value, but when you’re not on the court, you’re not providing any value at all to your team. 27% of the season is a lot of time missed and that’s a factor for me.

They actual outscored the other teams, cumulatively, over that 15 game stretch. Just look up Doncic on bbal ref and check out his inactive games. They lost a lot of close ones, blew teams out in pretty much every win, outscored the other teams easily overall (cumulatively) and went 6-9. Limited samples indeed.

Thanks. Well there ya go. Not surprised.

[ty 4191]

LeBron or Jordan is the Goat. Sorry to burst your bubble, but once again not everything has to do with advanced stats. This is pretty much a consensus take as well. It's between those two.

Wilt, Russell, and KAJ have just as strong a case, respectively, as GOAT as LeBron and Jordan.

And, sorry to burst your bubble, but LeBron and Jordan had incredible advanced stats, also. By FAR the best of their entire eras.

It's the Information Age, bro. Get with the times.

[eyeatoma]

LeBron or Jordan is the Goat. Sorry to burst your bubble, but once again not everything has to do with advanced stats. This is pretty much a consensus take as well. It's between those two.

Wilt, Russell, and KAJ have just as strong a case, respectively, as GOAT as LeBron and Jordan.

And, sorry to burst your bubble, but LeBron and Jordan had incredible advanced stats, also. By FAR the best of their entire eras.

It's the Information Age, bro. Get with the times.

Never said they didn't. You are the one who brought it up. All I said was that advanced stats weren't everything. I was responding to what you said. You also take things too literally. 15 times was an approximation. By your stats, it could have atleast been 6-8 times. But he hasn't won that many MVPs. Throws water on everyone's assertion that the only thing that matters is advanced stats for determining the MVP. Comprehension is key. Get with the times bro.

[falcolombardi]

every métric and stat or accolade in basketball you want to use is flawed in some way

is why is important to understand their uses and limits

rings= dont account for rivals, injury luck, teammate quality and fit

accolades= subjective choice of voters, prone to biases like any of us

normal stats= dont tell the whole story of the game

plus-minus stats= dont tell the context of the olus-minus, dont perfectly isolate a player from his teammates
somewhat situatuonal at times

eye test= prone to biases, limitations of a single person

[ty 4191]

Comprehension is key. Get with the times bro.

By your logic, the player with the best teammates is the MVP, ceteris paribus. That's bullsh*t and idiotic.

By your logic, we should only be looking at primitive/basic stats, as opposed to metrics which incorporate so much more, and attempt to incorporate everything. Total player impact.

[eyeatoma]

Comprehension is key. Get with the times bro.

By your logic, the player with the best teammates is the MVP, ceteris paribus. That's bullsh*t and idiotic.

By your logic, we should only be looking at primitive/basic stats, as opposed to metrics which incorporate so much more, and attempt to incorporate everything. Total player impact.

You don't get it, and I'm not going to continue to try to explain it to someone that doesn't want to listen.

[ty 4191]

You don't get it, and I'm not going to continue to try to explain it to someone that doesn't want to listen.

No. YOU don't get it. You want to deem the Most VALUABLE Player based on bullsh*t; nothing more and totally hype and teammate driven "narratives" out there in the ether, subject to totally subjective bias and misleading factoids and conjecture.

As opposed to actual facts.

Jokic has been the best/most valuable/most well-rounded player in the world the past 2 seasons, and it really isn't close.

[SpreeS]

Now I am watching DEN/BOS. Finished 1st Q. How influenced Jokic +/- by Malone rotation.

Jokic/Gordon/Barton played together about 10min in 1st Q. BOS rotation started with Tatum rest and he came back when Jokic/Gordon/Barton were benched….and boom BOS run 7-2 at the end of 1st Q.

Tatum/Horford boosted Jokic minus against DEN second unit and DEN starters boosted Jokic plus agaisnt Brown/Smart

[BoatsNZones]

Now I am watching DEN/BOS. Finished 1st Q. How influenced Jokic +/- by Malone rotation.

Jokic/Gordon/Barton played together about 10min in 1st Q. BOS rotation started with Tatum rest and he came back when Jokic/Gordon/Barton were benched….and boom BOS run 7-2 at the end of 1st Q.

Tatum/Horford boosted Jokic minus against DEN second unit and DEN starters boosted Jokic plus agaisnt Brown/Smart

Jokic only plays with the starters, and it does indeed mess with the impact/+/- stats. He's still a beast and a top 5 player in the league, but this always bears mentioning.

I saw Jokic pull gravity on the D like I've only seen Curry pull before tonight btw. Top of the key. Opened up a wide open backdoor dunk. Wasn't even a Jokic pass ("secondary assist"), but it was all him. That's impact.

Jokic has it sometimes (obviously not his night with the ~10 turnovers). Embiid doesn't have the playmaking ability to exude it. Giannis has it when he crushes the paint and dishes. Curry has it at all moments. It's why any time he has a halfway decent roster he makes the role players look like All Stars (looking at you Wiggins), and the never-beens look like true gamers (looking at you GPII). Zero ego; he welcomes them all. He's the ultimate key. He's the Most Valuable Player in the league.