So Harden is washed - huh? Stats say otherwise...

[stormi]

Having a nice 10 game stretch doesn't mean hes back to he was.

No one is saying hes washed. Just that hes not the player he used to be.

You will find out soon enough.

He was your most consistently dominant player through a sea of injured stars and part time employees.

Read on Twitter

The team was 7-6 last year before he arrived, and have won at a 51 game pace when he's played without Kyrie and Durant.

Look at Kyrie now, he can't lead a team to a win to save his life without Durant and Harden.

You got the splits for games in which he played with Durant? Because the Nets are an elite team with KD so these numbers are cute but may not tell the whole story.

have won at a 51 game pace when he's played without Kyrie and Durant.

[LAL1947]

Late first this year, worth about as much as the late first we had last year who's been buried in the G-League.

Curry, 31 year old role player
Drummond, backup center on a vet min

Second FRP in 2027, top 8 protected for two years and then coverts into seconds. No chance of a Billy King here.

And Ben Simmons who can't handle criticism and fled to his room to play video games and the first sign of adversity.

Also, Maxey and Thybulle retained who I was told had to be a staple in any Harden deal.

Steal for Morey tbh.

Well, l just think the 76ers gave too much when they could've or should've gotten a straight swap. Keeping Maxey and Thybulle is a good thing though.

There is another silver lining too... in that this trade has made the path to the finals tougher for the Bucks, who looked like they could have swept through to the finals with the way things were pre-deadline.

[danvato]

Read on Twitter

Before Kyrie's jabroni on-again-off-again (which was happening primarily before KD got hurt), Harden's numbers were just fine. TS of close to 60% and getting to the line a lot. If Harden matches the numbers of those 20 games before Kyrie comes back, I think the Sixers will be just fine.

And - again - the numbers for those 20 games were alongside a high-usage KD. No reason Harden can't do those next to Embiid.

No clue who Jackson Frank is but i'm 100% sure watched less than 5 of the 30 games he's commenting on. With all due respect, this is a bull analysis.

It's possible Harden dogged it all year which is why he's looked washed, the stats are garbage comparing to vintage Harden or even Harden of last year.

The cut-off is completely arbitrary. Why since Kyrie came back as the cut-off, why not since Nets announced it, or since his first practice? Why, because the last 4 games for that 20 are 30+ with 3 triple doubles that skew average in favor of that group of games. Out off the 13 remaining games, guess what, 5 were at home without Kyrie, same as the 1st 20. 13th game was the game he quite in Sactown 2/11 with 4 points which again skews averages against that group of games.

KDs "high usage" is 27 (good for ~30th in the NBA), Embiids usage is 42, 1st in the NBA.

Hardens like in the past, TS% is held up by his FT, his eFG% is terrible this year. How is he getting to the line? I don't have stats, but my guess he is #1 in 3 point fouls, he isn't getting to the line based on drives. He is having a really hard time beating the 1st defender. His TOs are terrible this year negating most of the positives from his assists.

Maybe all that was lack of effort, who know, i'm sure we've all seen the defensive clips. But lets not pretend the stats are good this year. They are good enough to be an all-star, good enough to be a top 20-30 player, just don't act like you got MVP level Harden.

But yes, it's 100% idiot Kyries fault. That part I agree with. I also think Harden got picked on by refs this year.

[stormi]

Late first this year, worth about as much as the late first we had last year who's been buried in the G-League.

Curry, 31 year old role player
Drummond, backup center on a vet min

Second FRP in 2027, top 8 protected for two years and then coverts into seconds. No chance of a Billy King here.

And Ben Simmons who can't handle criticism and fled to his room to play video games and the first sign of adversity.

Also, Maxey and Thybulle retained who I was told had to be a staple in any Harden deal.

Steal for Morey tbh.

Well, l just think the 76ers gave too much when they could've or should've gotten a straight swap. Keeping Maxey and Thybulle is a good thing though.

There is another silver lining... in that this trade has made the path to the finals tougher for the Bucks, who looked like they could have swept through to the finals with the way things were pre-deadline.

There's a price to pay to gain an extra post-season out of Harden with Joel Embiid. The 76ers had no chance at a championship with Seth Curry and Andre Drummond. Now, that isn't to say they're favs or anything, but they now have two upper echelon talents with an okay surrounding cast around them (Maxey, Thybulle, Harris, Green, Niang). They can make some noise and further assess how to construct this roster around them for '22/'23.

I personally don't think the price was anything outrageous considering a 34 year old role-player like Thad Young pulled a FRP and a mid tier starter like Derrick White pulled a roster player, a recent lottery pick and two potential FRP's.

[danvato]

Those 2 statlines arent really that far apart tho, lol. Harden isnt washed, he's just started declining like most players do in their early 30's.

They are almost identical if you take out his last game as a Net where he tried even less than usual 2/11 4 points vs the Kings.

[GreatWhiteStiff]

Rockets fans were defending Harden for years.
Then, when he bailed they started cursing.

We had Celtics fans(including me) praising Kyrie and trying to defend him from all the criticism. Before we started cursing.

Then we had Nets fans complimenting Harden and Kyrie and defending them at all costs.
Before they started cursing.

Now we will have Sixers fans, defending and promoting Harden. Until he goes full Harden mode again (once he signs the extension)....you know how this will end.

Can't wait until these two clowns retire.

Spurned lovers lol

[danvato]

Having a nice 10 game stretch doesn't mean hes back to he was.

No one is saying hes washed. Just that hes not the player he used to be.

You will find out soon enough.

He was your most consistently dominant player through a sea of injured stars and part time employees.

Read on Twitter

The team was 7-6 last year before he arrived, and have won at a 51 game pace when he's played without Kyrie and Durant.

Look at Kyrie now, he can't lead a team to a win to save his life without Durant and Harden.

Another "Jackson" and another random grouping of games

1st, forget about 20/21 season, noone complained about Harden last year.
2nd, "with Harden" includes games with Kyrie and Durant, does it not. How about the same break down for "with Durant"
24-12 with KD vs 26-18 with Harden
5-15 withuot KD vs 3-7

Also look at the results of KD alone vs Harden alone.

[Hello Brooklyn]

Having a nice 10 game stretch doesn't mean hes back to he was.

No one is saying hes washed. Just that hes not the player he used to be.

You will find out soon enough.

He was your most consistently dominant player through a sea of injured stars and part time employees.

Read on Twitter

The team was 7-6 last year before he arrived, and have won at a 51 game pace when he's played without Kyrie and Durant.

Look at Kyrie now, he can't lead a team to a win to save his life without Durant and Harden.

Those statistics are so stupid and misleading.

This year our record was great with KD. As soon as KD got injured we sucked. That was with James Harden and Kyrie. Shortly after he quit and faked a hamstring injury.

So don't act like it was bum ass Harden. It was KD who was 2nd in MVP odds before getting hurt.

Last year yes he helped after a slow start.

But Harden is not the same player he was last year. And might never be again.

[bebopdeluxe]

I'm always thrown off by these threads where the OP disagrees with a comment in a different thread and then makes a new thread to yell at the whole board about it.

Not sure exactly where this is coming from, but I am happy to have you detail what you are taking about.

The point of the post was to offset the narrative that some have that Harden is old, fat and declining. To be honest, the statistics for that 20 game stretch surprised me - 25/11/8 with a 59% TS (most of that done with KD)
would seem to be top 10-level production.

[bebopdeluxe]

Having a nice 10 game stretch doesn't mean hes back to he was.

No one is saying hes washed. Just that hes not the player he used to be.

You will find out soon enough.

He was your most consistently dominant player through a sea of injured stars and part time employees.

Read on Twitter

The team was 7-6 last year before he arrived, and have won at a 51 game pace when he's played without Kyrie and Durant.

Look at Kyrie now, he can't lead a team to a win to save his life without Durant and Harden.

Those statistics are so stupid and misleading.

This year our record was great with KD. As soon as KD got injured we sucked. That was with James Harden and Kyrie. Shortly after he quit and faked a hamstring injury.

So don't act like it was bum ass Harden. It was KD who was 2nd in MVP odds before getting hurt.

Last year yes he helped after a slow start.

But Harden is not the same player he was last year. And might never be again.

I think the point here is that if Harden is the player he was before KD got hurt - playing along side another high-usage player in Embiid - he doesn’t have to be the player he was a year or two ago. A 25/11/8 player with a 59% TS will work just fine with Embiid.

[bisme37]

I'm always thrown off by these threads where the OP disagrees with a comment in a different thread and then makes a new thread to yell at the whole board about it.

Not sure exactly where this is coming from, but I am happy to have you detail what you are taking about.

The point of the post was to offset the narrative that some have that Harden is old, fat and declining. To be honest, the statistics for that 20 game stretch surprised me - 25/11/8 with a 59% TS (most of that done with KD)
would seem to be top 10-level production.

Not everyone has seen the "narrative" you're talking about. I haven't. So for me it's perfectly cool to have a thread about how Harden is a good player with good stats. But the way you went about the title makes people come into the thread thinking "who the heck said Harden is washed and what does that have to do with me?" And the point about Harden being a good player with good stats gets a little lost. Whatever though. Do you thing.

[Hello Brooklyn]

I think the point here is that if Harden is the player he was before KD got hurt - playing along side another high-usage player in Embiid - he doesn’t have to be the player he was a year or two ago. A 25/11/8 player with a 59% TS will work just fine with Embiid.

I mean even if Harden was the player he was all season he would work with Embiid. Sixers need a scoring guard. And hes still good.

And they gave up Simmons who didn't even play.

I just don't think Sixers fans should expect the Harden of old. Unless he was truly just dogging it all season on purpose.

[vxmike]

I don't think anyone thought he was "washed." Declining though, certainly. But given he was one of if not the greatest offensive player ever at his peak, a declining Harden is still a very, very good player

This. My bone of contention with the Harden-Simmons trade is that Harden is declining... AND will need to be paid $45-50m per year for his next contract... AND they gave one of their top two competitors a young, All-Star level player in return... AND included Curry, Drummond and two firsts.

For me, the 76ers should have said "straight swap or nada"... but it's not my team, so I don't really care. Well, I do care that they've helped the Nets remain strong when they could've just let the Nets implode or self-destruct.

Late first this year, worth about as much as the late first we had last year who's been buried in the G-League.

Curry, 31 year old role player
Drummond, backup center on a vet min

Second FRP in 2027, top 8 protected for two years and then coverts into seconds. No chance of a Billy King here.

And Ben Simmons who can't handle criticism and fled to his room to play video games and the first sign of adversity.

Also, Maxey and Thybulle retained who I was told had to be a staple in any Harden deal.

Steal for Morey tbh.

I wouldn’t call it’s steal for More but I thought the trade was fair for both teams. Yeah Harden’s new deal is gonna be bad at the end, but let’s not forget BKN is going to be giving Curry (role player) a new likely expensive deal the same season.

Harden was the best win-now piece Morey could get for the next 2-3 seasons. Could Beal have been obtained for the same package? I doubt it.

[G35]

I'm always thrown off by these threads where the OP disagrees with a comment in a different thread and then makes a new thread to yell at the whole board about it.

This is how you create "engagement" on boards...say something contradictory or outrageous.....

[ForeverTFC]

I'm always thrown off by these threads where the OP disagrees with a comment in a different thread and then makes a new thread to yell at the whole board about it.

This one's pretty funny though, because you can go back a month to a similar thread and half the posters in here have changed their opinion 180 degrees, in both directions.

[whatisacenter]

there are reasons why Harden has been on 3 teams in two years and there are reasons why Simmons and the Sixers fell apart. How about we see how it plays out a bit before we make any judgements.

[bebopdeluxe]

I'm always thrown off by these threads where the OP disagrees with a comment in a different thread and then makes a new thread to yell at the whole board about it.

Not sure exactly where this is coming from, but I am happy to have you detail what you are taking about.

The point of the post was to offset the narrative that some have that Harden is old, fat and declining. To be honest, the statistics for that 20 game stretch surprised me - 25/11/8 with a 59% TS (most of that done with KD)
would seem to be top 10-level production.

Not everyone has seen the "narrative" you're talking about. I haven't. So for me it's perfectly cool to have a thread about how Harden is a good player with good stats. But the way you went about the title makes people come into the thread thinking "who the heck said Harden is washed and what does that have to do with me?" And the point about Harden being a good player with good stats gets a little lost. Whatever though. Do you thing.

Appreciate the feedback. The post was a response to those revisionists who thought that Morey was going to have to settle for a pu-pu-platter for Simmons, and then once they got Harden (a guy who these posters NEVER thought was possible), started slagging Harden as on the downside.

You didn't see that narrative on the board?

[ken6199]

Rockets fans were defending Harden for years.
Then, when he bailed they started cursing.

We had Celtics fans(including me) praising Kyrie and trying to defend him from all the criticism. Before we started cursing.

Then we had Nets fans complimenting Harden and Kyrie and defending them at all costs.
Before they started cursing.

Now we will have Sixers fans, defending and promoting Harden. Until he goes full Harden mode again (once he signs the extension)....you know how this will end.

Can't wait until these two clowns retire.

What Rockets fans you were talking too? I hate that mentality of "if you play for us we love you but if you leave we hate you", but I also hate those who put words into other people's mouth to establish some imaginary opponent just to validate their point.

I still somewhat follow Harden today, just because how much he did for my team. I didn't curse anything when he left us, matter of fact I was wishing him gone because I knew Houston was going to rebuild (you bastard Tilman Fertitta) and with Nets he had high hopes of winning something. A player of his level should belong to where he belongs in elite discussion instead of letting that stupid "ring or bust" narrative impact his legacy and make him look worse than some other players in the same tier or even a tier below him. Last year when Harden was going up against the Bucks with a half hamstring only to aggravate the injury itself, I thought it showed how much he was willing to sacrifice to win a championship? If KD's toe size was half inch smaller they might have accomplished the goal? If that didn't earn the respect from the Nets fans and they choose to curse him instead, than those Nets fans are not worth talking to.

[jstross]

that's the point people are missing. Simmons was never going to play again in Philly. Period. They got the most they could for him.I like Curry, but his defense cost the sixers the hawks series. Harden isnt a great defender, but he's a better defender than Curry.
Drummond, meh. 2 late picks, meh. We shall see. If you're going for a title who would you rather have D'aron Fox or Harden?

I think the point here is that if Harden is the player he was before KD got hurt - playing along side another high-usage player in Embiid - he doesn’t have to be the player he was a year or two ago. A 25/11/8 player with a 59% TS will work just fine with Embiid.

I mean even if Harden was the player he was all season he would work with Embiid. Sixers need a scoring guard. And hes still good.

And they gave up Simmons who didn't even play.

I just don't think Sixers fans should expect the Harden of old. Unless he was truly just dogging it all season on purpose.

[ken6199]

there are reasons why Harden has been on 3 teams in two years and there are reasons why Simmons and the Sixers fell apart. How about we see how it plays out a bit before we make any judgements.

1) Houston management flipped CP3 to Westbrook to Wall with each step being closer to the poo poo land throwing away assets after assets, eventually stuck with a bunch of nobodies. They were pairing Harden with Wall and Cousins, and their best "winning mode" talent was Eric Gordon at that time. Too bad, unlike you guys we didn't have a Klay Thompson getting ready to return. So what would you do in that situation? I am going to tough it out, and ride thick and thin with this franchise? Until I am 37 and can't dunk, if at that time I still haven't won, then I start looking out for myself?

2) Nets outside of their big 3 is also in deplete of talent which became more obvious after Joe Harris went down. KD's health started to become more and more unreliable, then you have that lunatic who created this situation I am 100% sure not only Harden but also something KD couldn't foresee. But of course, let me give this one more push, and if it doesn't work out, I just opt out of my player's option and leave for a different team with Nets getting nothing in return?

I am sure these are the noble things to do, than "3 teams in 2 years" which sounds like a total cancer and an ultimate judas.