ImageImageImage

Tatum and Brown, as 1-2 Options

Moderators: bisme37, Parliament10, shackles10, snowman, Froob, canman1971, Darthlukey, Shak_Celts

User avatar
Ill News
General Manager
Posts: 7,881
And1: 16,428
Joined: Jul 17, 2016
       

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#881 » by Ill News » Wed Feb 16, 2022 12:53 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:


Glad they're slowly realizing they don't have to do everything on their own. That if they play the right way and involve their teammates, game becomes easier for them and the team. Ball movement, spacing, and pace really have improved for about a month now. Still room to improve on the offensive end but we're heading in the right direction!

(Both have had significant bumps in assist % since 12/31. Not counting potential assists and hockey assists.)

I might be wrong and just misremembering things, but the Jays were already playing like this early in their careers, thriving in Brad's system where the extra pass was always encouraged. Things changed when they were asked to improve their isolation game and become more diverse scorers, which they improved in leaps and bounds (especially Jaylen; I think he surprised a lot of people with his 2020 breakout). They now had to re-learn some of the simple and basic plays they did in Brad's old system, though this time they are much better individual players which makes them even more dangerous and difficult to defend. They just need to keep this up; no more of that your turn, my turn offense of the past season and a half (helps that they finally have an able supporting cast as well).
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 41,129
And1: 98,298
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#882 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:00 pm

Ill News wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:

Glad they're slowly realizing they don't have to do everything on their own. That if they play the right way and involve their teammates, game becomes easier for them and the team. Ball movement, spacing, and pace really have improved for about a month now. Still room to improve on the offensive end but we're heading in the right direction!

(Both have had significant bumps in assist % since 12/31. Not counting potential assists and hockey assists.)

I might be wrong and just misremembering things, but the Jays were already playing like this early in their careers, thriving in Brad's system where the extra pass was always encouraged. Things changed when they were asked to improve their isolation game and become more diverse scorers, which they improved in leaps and bounds (especially Jaylen; I think he surprised a lot of people with his 2020 breakout). They now had to re-learn some of the simple and basic plays they did in Brad's old system, though this time they are much better individual players which makes them even more dangerous and difficult to defend. They just need to keep this up; no more of that your turn, my turn offense of the past season and a half (helps that they finally have an able supporting cast as well).

You're right. In smaller roles in their rookie and sophomore years, they were more "one of the guys" and had better sense of team ball. Probably picked up few bad habits from guys like Kyrie and Mook. They were bought in during our Kyrie-less, Hayward-less 2018 run to the ECF. Then everyone reverted back to individual ball in the disastrous 2018-19 season. 2019-20 was more a mixed bag with their first crack at being the primary scorers along with Kemba.
sam_I_am
RealGM
Posts: 16,745
And1: 9,561
Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#883 » by sam_I_am » Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:30 pm

Tatum and Brown can’t co-exist. Brad should trade one of them.
"I think the criticism's stupid," Stevens said. "So I don't care. I'm with Jaylen (Brown) on that. Those two had achieved more than most 25 and 26 year olds ever had. I'd rather be in the mix and have my guts ripped out than suck."
Feed Your Head
RealGM
Posts: 25,438
And1: 69,469
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#884 » by Feed Your Head » Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:33 pm

These updated yesterday, so this doesn’t take last nights game into account. Jaylen’s advanced stats are the best of his career, and the LA-ORAPM is trending up as well. His defensive numbers are trending up as well, and pretty fast. Tatum being this incredible while shooting 32% from deep bodes incredibly well for what his ceiling is. There’s maybe 3 guys I take over him for the next five years.

I know some people roll their eyes at advanced stats, but with the exception of BPM/RPM, every one of these below were rated within the top 5 for advanced stats according to a poll of NBA execs. NBA teams spend more on analytics than we can even fathom, so they sure as hell take impact stats seriously.

Image

Image
Joshyjess
Lead Assistant
Posts: 4,889
And1: 8,756
Joined: Jun 20, 2018
         

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#885 » by Joshyjess » Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:33 pm

sam_I_am wrote:Tatum and Brown can’t co-exist. Brad should trade one of them.

Exactly! Can you imagine if these guys actually liked each other???? Perfect 72 - 0 season!!!! :lol:
User avatar
Larry_Russell
RealGM
Posts: 11,922
And1: 6,156
Joined: Jun 23, 2021

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#886 » by Larry_Russell » Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:38 pm

Tatum turning into a giannis/durant hybrid out there.

Brown turning into a more efficient offensively Jimmy Butler.

Savage/
Feed Your Head
RealGM
Posts: 25,438
And1: 69,469
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#887 » by Feed Your Head » Wed Feb 16, 2022 1:59 pm

The top is EPM, which was voted (well tied with DPM) as the best advanced stat. Look at how ridiculous Jokic is lol.

Image

Image
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 41,129
And1: 98,298
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#888 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Feb 16, 2022 2:16 pm

Cs somehow end up with a top 3 seed and momentum heading into the playoffs, Tatum could grab All-NBA 2nd team. How quickly opinions can change with winning lol. A month ago I didn't think a Celtic should be all-star this season. Tatum not missing many games would also be in his favor.
sam_I_am
RealGM
Posts: 16,745
And1: 9,561
Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#889 » by sam_I_am » Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:14 pm

Curious how OKC Giddey rates on that scale. Where once it looked like he was a guy we might pick at 16, he now looks like the steal of the draft at 6.
"I think the criticism's stupid," Stevens said. "So I don't care. I'm with Jaylen (Brown) on that. Those two had achieved more than most 25 and 26 year olds ever had. I'd rather be in the mix and have my guts ripped out than suck."
sam_I_am
RealGM
Posts: 16,745
And1: 9,561
Joined: Jul 10, 2004

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#890 » by sam_I_am » Wed Feb 16, 2022 3:20 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:Cs somehow end up with a top 3 seed and momentum heading into the playoffs, Tatum could grab All-NBA 2nd team. How quickly opinions can change with winning lol. A month ago I didn't think a Celtic should be all-star this season. Tatum not missing many games would also be in his favor.


When you factor how bad this season has been up until 1 month ago, it is remarkable that we are within 1 game of team with consensus MVP and 2 games from defending champs. The level he has played at since the start of 2022 is possibly top 5 in NBA and worthy of MVP consideration itself. Of course you don’t get MVP for just a month of great play but this is a trajectory that is only going to trend up barring injury for the rest of season.
"I think the criticism's stupid," Stevens said. "So I don't care. I'm with Jaylen (Brown) on that. Those two had achieved more than most 25 and 26 year olds ever had. I'd rather be in the mix and have my guts ripped out than suck."
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 41,129
And1: 98,298
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#891 » by zoyathedestroya » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:21 pm

Read on Twitter

"The energy is about to shift." I GET IT NOW!
Fencer reregistered
RealGM
Posts: 41,159
And1: 28,061
Joined: Oct 25, 2006

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#892 » by Fencer reregistered » Wed Feb 16, 2022 5:45 pm

zoyathedestroya wrote:
Ill News wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:

Glad they're slowly realizing they don't have to do everything on their own. That if they play the right way and involve their teammates, game becomes easier for them and the team. Ball movement, spacing, and pace really have improved for about a month now. Still room to improve on the offensive end but we're heading in the right direction!

(Both have had significant bumps in assist % since 12/31. Not counting potential assists and hockey assists.)

I might be wrong and just misremembering things, but the Jays were already playing like this early in their careers, thriving in Brad's system where the extra pass was always encouraged. Things changed when they were asked to improve their isolation game and become more diverse scorers, which they improved in leaps and bounds (especially Jaylen; I think he surprised a lot of people with his 2020 breakout). They now had to re-learn some of the simple and basic plays they did in Brad's old system, though this time they are much better individual players which makes them even more dangerous and difficult to defend. They just need to keep this up; no more of that your turn, my turn offense of the past season and a half (helps that they finally have an able supporting cast as well).

You're right. In smaller roles in their rookie and sophomore years, they were more "one of the guys" and had better sense of team ball. Probably picked up few bad habits from guys like Kyrie and Mook. They were bought in during our Kyrie-less, Hayward-less 2018 run to the ECF. Then everyone reverted back to individual ball in the disastrous 2018-19 season. 2019-20 was more a mixed bag with their first crack at being the primary scorers along with Kemba.


If nothing else, Tatum's great "improvement" as an off-ball defender is a basically a return to previous form.
Banned temporarily for, among other sins, being "Extremely Deviant".
Feed Your Head
RealGM
Posts: 25,438
And1: 69,469
Joined: Jun 25, 2006
       

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#893 » by Feed Your Head » Wed Feb 16, 2022 6:24 pm

Say hot damn.

Read on Twitter
?s=20&t=QJkS4RgKKnUZhlSs3j45KQ

Image
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 41,129
And1: 98,298
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#894 » by zoyathedestroya » Sat Oct 22, 2022 4:23 pm

Read on Twitter
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 41,129
And1: 98,298
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#895 » by zoyathedestroya » Thu Dec 1, 2022 1:00 pm

Got my confirmation.

Teammates scoring 25+ ppg on 60+% TS% same season in NBA history:
• Bird and McHale (1987)
• KD and Curry (2017)
• KD and Curry (2018)
• KD and Curry (2019)

After 22 games, Tatum averaging 31.6 ppg on 63.5% TS and Brown averaging 26.1 ppg on 60.5% TS.

If it were that easy, more pairings would've done it.
BostonCouchGM
Head Coach
Posts: 6,714
And1: 4,859
Joined: Jun 07, 2018

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#896 » by BostonCouchGM » Fri Dec 2, 2022 12:58 am

zoyathedestroya wrote:Got my confirmation.

Teammates scoring 25+ ppg on 60+% TS% same season in NBA history:
• Bird and McHale (1987)
• KD and Curry (2017)
• KD and Curry (2018)
• KD and Curry (2019)

After 22 games, Tatum averaging 31.6 ppg on 63.5% TS and Brown averaging 26.1 ppg on 60.5% TS.

If it were that easy, more pairings would've done it.


you can't compare today's era to other eras since it's geared towards offense, players are allowed to use illegal screens, travel, carry and push off plus there's the lack of defense and the three ball. There's a reason only one duo had ever done it until 2017 and then now we're on our 4th since.

There's currently 14 players scoring 25 ppg.

In Bird and MJs era there were very few 25 ppg let alone teammates

1980-5
1981-5
1982-4
1983-4
1984-6
1985-8
1986-5
1987-7
1988-9
1989-9
1990-7
1991-9
1992-4
1993-5
1996-5
1997-4
1998-3

TS% is kinda garbage tbh.

There's currently like 57 players with a 60 TS%. Back when Bird and Mchale both did it there were only 20
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 41,129
And1: 98,298
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#897 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Dec 5, 2022 9:04 am

Random Fact: JT and JB have raised their scoring average to 27+ ppg since BCGM poo-pooed on my stat while maintaining their 60%+ TS%.

No pair of teammates has done that for a full season.
Stan34
Pro Prospect
Posts: 803
And1: 526
Joined: Oct 17, 2020

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#898 » by Stan34 » Mon Dec 5, 2022 9:12 am

zoyathedestroya wrote:Got my confirmation.

Teammates scoring 25+ ppg on 60+% TS% same season in NBA history:
• Bird and McHale (1987)
• KD and Curry (2017)
• KD and Curry (2018)
• KD and Curry (2019)

After 22 games, Tatum averaging 31.6 ppg on 63.5% TS and Brown averaging 26.1 ppg on 60.5% TS.

If it were that easy, more pairings would've done it.
Be Better, Jaylen is 27 PPG not 26.1

Inviato dal mio moto g(7) plus utilizzando Tapatalk
User avatar
zoyathedestroya
RealGM
Posts: 41,129
And1: 98,298
Joined: Nov 05, 2017

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#899 » by zoyathedestroya » Mon Dec 5, 2022 9:27 am

Stan34 wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:Got my confirmation.

Teammates scoring 25+ ppg on 60+% TS% same season in NBA history:
• Bird and McHale (1987)
• KD and Curry (2017)
• KD and Curry (2018)
• KD and Curry (2019)

After 22 games, Tatum averaging 31.6 ppg on 63.5% TS and Brown averaging 26.1 ppg on 60.5% TS.

If it were that easy, more pairings would've done it.
Be Better, Jaylen is 27 PPG not 26.1

Inviato dal mio moto g(7) plus utilizzando Tapatalk

Or you know, you could just check when it was posted. Then check the latest post.
User avatar
steefP2
Lead Assistant
Posts: 5,844
And1: 9,752
Joined: Apr 25, 2011
 

Re: Tatum and Brown 

Post#900 » by steefP2 » Mon Dec 5, 2022 9:52 am

BostonCouchGM wrote:
zoyathedestroya wrote:Got my confirmation.

Teammates scoring 25+ ppg on 60+% TS% same season in NBA history:
• Bird and McHale (1987)
• KD and Curry (2017)
• KD and Curry (2018)
• KD and Curry (2019)

After 22 games, Tatum averaging 31.6 ppg on 63.5% TS and Brown averaging 26.1 ppg on 60.5% TS.

If it were that easy, more pairings would've done it.


you can't compare today's era to other eras since it's geared towards offense, players are allowed to use illegal screens, travel, carry and push off plus there's the lack of defense and the three ball. There's a reason only one duo had ever done it until 2017 and then now we're on our 4th since.

There's currently 14 players scoring 25 ppg.

In Bird and MJs era there were very few 25 ppg let alone teammates

1980-5
1981-5
1982-4
1983-4
1984-6
1985-8
1986-5
1987-7
1988-9
1989-9
1990-7
1991-9
1992-4
1993-5
1996-5
1997-4
1998-3

TS% is kinda garbage tbh.

There's currently like 57 players with a 60 TS%. Back when Bird and Mchale both did it there were only 20



that's why you look at ts% above league average, not just raw ts. League average ts atm is .574, which iirc is the highest ever. So jaylen is currently at +4 and jayson at +5 above league average efficiency.

Return to Boston Celtics