Can a case be made that Larry Bird was the GOAT ?

[mj234eva]

The whole making teammates better is a myth (that goes for every player that they use that line for).

[LAL1947]

If we remove centers then Bird is my GOAT. If the game is on the line and I had to put the ball in any one player's hands to win the game it is Larry Legend.

There's this Jordan guy I heard was pretty good. Might wanna check his YouTube highlights.

Why not take both? And Kobe too, to lock down the other fantasy team's small PG (like Curry). Our team wouldn't need a PG.

Kobe, Jordan, Larry, Hakeem, Shaq

[Sothron]

If we remove centers then Bird is my GOAT. If the game is on the line and I had to put the ball in any one player's hands to win the game it is Larry Legend.

There's this Jordan guy I heard was pretty good. Might wanna check his YouTube highlights.

I've watched the NBA since 1979. I think I remember Jordan. He was pretty good. But he wasn't Bird. That's the great thing about opinions. You can have yours and I can have mine.

[Slim Charless]

The whole making teammates better is a myth (that goes for every player that they use that line for).

As a Suns fan, I've seen it first hand with both Steve Nash and now with CP3. That's a real thing certain players help make other players achieve more than they would normally. They either bring it out in them or they're just so good that they put these players in spots they can't fail.

That said Larry is not the GOAT. He's top 10 imo

Mike
LeBron
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
(Bird, Magic, Dr J) in some order

[SNPA]

Tell me this...what did Bird do that was the best ever? That even to this day, you say: "xxx is good at yyyy, but Bird was the best ever." Bird is a legit top 10 player because of his overall excellence in the game and high BBIQ, but I don't see him as GOAT without being able to pinpoint what he was the GOAT at.

The first and foremost thing is making others better. It is clear as I wrote about earlier in this thread. Also shooting. No player in his ERA ever was allowed to do what Curry did in expanding the three point shot. Bird was an all time great shooter and passer

So, do you think Bird was the best ever at making his teammates better? Best ever shooter? Best ever passer? I would rank him very highly in all of these categories, but would have a tough time calling him best ever. Perhaps that's the point...the fact that he would rank highly in all of these categories is what makes his case for GOAT.

This is it.

[SNPA]

The whole making teammates better is a myth (that goes for every player that they use that line for).

As a Suns fan, I've seen it first hand with both Steve Nash and now with CP3. That's a real thing certain players help make other players achieve more than they would normally. They either bring it out in them or they're just so good that they put these players in spots they can't fail.

That said Larry is not the GOAT. He's top 10 imo

Mike
LeBron
Wilt
Kareem
Shaq
Hakeem
Kobe
(Bird, Magic, Dr J) in some order

Oh. Kobe over Bird. That explains it.

[ryguy613]

At best... and i literally mean AT. BEST. a case can be made that he is a top 5 all time player. Anything more than that and you're just telling yourself what you already wanted to hear.

[ryguy613]

The first and foremost thing is making others better. It is clear as I wrote about earlier in this thread. Also shooting. No player in his ERA ever was allowed to do what Curry did in expanding the three point shot. Bird was an all time great shooter and passer

So, do you think Bird was the best ever at making his teammates better? Best ever shooter? Best ever passer? I would rank him very highly in all of these categories, but would have a tough time calling him best ever. Perhaps that's the point...the fact that he would rank highly in all of these categories is what makes his case for GOAT.

This is it.

If Bird was say... top THREE all time in all of the categories you mentioned you might have a case... MAYBE... but hes not. If you wanna be incredibly kind to Bird you might say he was a top 10 all time passer... probably around 8th or 9th. I think more realistically he was probably somewhere in the 11-15 range but I will argue this from the perspective of a true die hard Bird fan.

[70sFan]

Tell me this...what did Bird do that was the best ever? That even to this day, you say: "xxx is good at yyyy, but Bird was the best ever." Bird is a legit top 10 player because of his overall excellence in the game and high BBIQ, but I don't see him as GOAT without being able to pinpoint what he was the GOAT at.

The first and foremost thing is making others better. It is clear as I wrote about earlier in this thread. Also shooting. No player in his ERA ever was allowed to do what Curry did in expanding the three point shot. Bird was an all time great shooter and passer

So, do you think Bird was the best ever at making his teammates better? Best ever shooter? Best ever passer? I would rank him very highly in all of these categories, but would have a tough time calling him best ever. Perhaps that's the point...the fact that he would rank highly in all of these categories is what makes his case for GOAT.

I don't think he has a case for best shooter ever with Curry arrival. Passing is arguable, but I think I'd find a few players clearly ahead of him.

What is underestimated here is his off-ball game. This is where he has the strongest case for the GOAT.

[70sFan]

Gotcha so:



You guys are welcome to debate this and attack the points that I'm making. Sorry, I just don't see him handling the switch heavy defenses that are in the league nowadays. Him being smart is nice, but that won't cut it against the likes of Ben Simmons, OG etc, etc etc. He's also gonna be hunted by the opposing team's best perimeter guy.

LMAO, nobody is going to argue and debate someone who thinks that humans have evolved physically in the last 40 years, especially when it has been proven that testosterone and growth hormones produced by the body have declined for generations.

As for today's defense, maybe you don't know this but there was no such thing as a flagrant foul when Bird played. Today's players not being able to touch Bird would have made life so easy he would have spent a year playing left handed because it was so easy for him.

Ummmm ok bro.


That addressed none of what I said but thanks for the useless rambling about fouls and evolution. I never made any of those points.

I'll make it very simple for you:

What does Larry avg today? Also what are his defensive numbers (DWS, DBPM).

He'd be hunted on defense over and over.

I don't understand why people think Bird would be bad defender today. He'd play strictly as a big and he was more mobile than a lot of centers or fours. I mean, Jokic has been good defender this season and he plays defense the way Bird did back then, except that Larry had much higher motor and less physical limitations.

[ryguy613]

The first and foremost thing is making others better. It is clear as I wrote about earlier in this thread. Also shooting. No player in his ERA ever was allowed to do what Curry did in expanding the three point shot. Bird was an all time great shooter and passer

So, do you think Bird was the best ever at making his teammates better? Best ever shooter? Best ever passer? I would rank him very highly in all of these categories, but would have a tough time calling him best ever. Perhaps that's the point...the fact that he would rank highly in all of these categories is what makes his case for GOAT.

I don't think he has a case for best shooter ever with Curry arrival. Passing is arguable, but I think I'd find a few players clearly ahead of him.

What is underestimated here is his off-ball game. This is where he has the strongest case for the GOAT.

...a FEW players clearly ahead of him as a passer? At the very LEAST these guys are all ahead of him:
Magic
Stockton
Robertson
Nash
Kidd
CP3
LeBron

And I'm being kind by the way. I would probably put another 5 or 6 guys in front of him but that following group is where you can begin to argue his ranking.

[Slim Charless]

LMAO, nobody is going to argue and debate someone who thinks that humans have evolved physically in the last 40 years, especially when it has been proven that testosterone and growth hormones produced by the body have declined for generations.

As for today's defense, maybe you don't know this but there was no such thing as a flagrant foul when Bird played. Today's players not being able to touch Bird would have made life so easy he would have spent a year playing left handed because it was so easy for him.

Ummmm ok bro.


That addressed none of what I said but thanks for the useless rambling about fouls and evolution. I never made any of those points.

I'll make it very simple for you:

What does Larry avg today? Also what are his defensive numbers (DWS, DBPM).

He'd be hunted on defense over and over.

I don't understand why people think Bird would be bad defender today. He'd play strictly as a big and he was more mobile than a lot of centers or fours. I mean, Jokic has been good defender this season and he plays defense the way Bird did back then, except that Larry had much higher motor and less physical limitations.

Sigh.....

Tell me what Larry does to defend Ayton or Bam or Giannis. Or JJJ or Tatum or even Collins.

Also, once again the switches would kill him, even if the bigs he'd be matched against wouldn't. Which they would.

[70sFan]

So, do you think Bird was the best ever at making his teammates better? Best ever shooter? Best ever passer? I would rank him very highly in all of these categories, but would have a tough time calling him best ever. Perhaps that's the point...the fact that he would rank highly in all of these categories is what makes his case for GOAT.

I don't think he has a case for best shooter ever with Curry arrival. Passing is arguable, but I think I'd find a few players clearly ahead of him.

What is underestimated here is his off-ball game. This is where he has the strongest case for the GOAT.

...a FEW players clearly ahead of him as a passer? At the very LEAST these guys are all ahead of him:
Magic
Stockton
Robertson
Nash
Kidd
CP3
LeBron

And I'm being kind by the way. I would probably put another 5 or 6 guys in front of him but that following group is where you can begin to argue his ranking.

You mentioned 7 players in the whole history, that's not a lot. Besides, I don't agree with all the names you mentioned.

[70sFan]

Ummmm ok bro.


That addressed none of what I said but thanks for the useless rambling about fouls and evolution. I never made any of those points.

I'll make it very simple for you:

What does Larry avg today? Also what are his defensive numbers (DWS, DBPM).

He'd be hunted on defense over and over.

I don't understand why people think Bird would be bad defender today. He'd play strictly as a big and he was more mobile than a lot of centers or fours. I mean, Jokic has been good defender this season and he plays defense the way Bird did back then, except that Larry had much higher motor and less physical limitations.

Sigh.....

Tell me what Larry does to defend Ayton or Bam or Giannis. Or JJJ or Tatum or even Collins.

Also, once again the switches would kill him, even if the bigs he'd be matched against wouldn't. Which they would.

95% of the league sucks at defending Giannis, so I don't get the point of mentioning him. I could as well say that Curry would suck defensively in the 1980s because he'd do nothing against MJ...

I'd love to see in-depth breakdown of how JJJ would destroy Bird on defense. Seriously, below average offensive player would somehow expose Bird on defense? Please explain that.

I don't think you realize that Bird was athletic for his size before his back problems started. Switches wouldn't kill him more than your average bigman. He's much quicker than Jokic. Not to mention that help defense is more important that man defense. Bird was very smart with his rotation and he got a lot of deflection because he could predict plays on the fly. It's even more valuable today than ever.

Seriously, I think some people believe that Bird is an oldschool version of Ryan Anderson... I have a question to you - do you think JJJ would also expose Dirk Nowitzki (less athletic, worse defender than Bird) on defense as well?

[ryguy613]

I don't think he has a case for best shooter ever with Curry arrival. Passing is arguable, but I think I'd find a few players clearly ahead of him.

What is underestimated here is his off-ball game. This is where he has the strongest case for the GOAT.

...a FEW players clearly ahead of him as a passer? At the very LEAST these guys are all ahead of him:
Magic
Stockton
Robertson
Nash
Kidd
CP3
LeBron

And I'm being kind by the way. I would probably put another 5 or 6 guys in front of him but that following group is where you can begin to argue his ranking.

You mentioned 7 players in the whole history, that's not a lot. Besides, I don't agree with all the names you mentioned.

7 is more than a few. Being the 8th greatest passer in NBA history is fantastic. Hell being top 50 is fantastic. But we're talking about "goat" material so the criteria has to be pretty strict. Also I'd love to know who on that list you disagree with

[Slim Charless]

I don't understand why people think Bird would be bad defender today. He'd play strictly as a big and he was more mobile than a lot of centers or fours. I mean, Jokic has been good defender this season and he plays defense the way Bird did back then, except that Larry had much higher motor and less physical limitations.

Sigh.....

Tell me what Larry does to defend Ayton or Bam or Giannis. Or JJJ or Tatum or even Collins.

Also, once again the switches would kill him, even if the bigs he'd be matched against wouldn't. Which they would.

95% of the league sucks at defending Giannis, so I don't get the point of mentioning him. I could as well say that Curry would suck defensively in the 1980s because he'd do nothing against MJ...

I'd love to see in-depth breakdown of how JJJ would destroy Bird on defense. Seriously, below average offensive player would somehow expose Bird on defense? Please explain that.

I don't think you realize that Bird was athletic for his size before his back problems started. Switches wouldn't kill him more than your average bigman. He's much quicker than Jokic. Not to mention that help defense is more important that man defense. Bird was very smart with his rotation and he got a lot of deflection because he could predict plays on the fly. It's even more valuable today than ever.

Seriously, I think some people believe that Bird is an oldschool version of Ryan Anderson... I have a question to you - do you think JJJ would also expose Dirk Nowitzki (less athletic, worse defender than Bird) on defense as well?

Firstly, I like how you skipped over the other players I mentioned. Comment on Larry's chances VS Ayton/Bam/Tatum/Collins. Do you think he does well against them?

To answer your question, JJJ is quick enough to beat Larry to the hoop and is much longer than him as well as stronger. What would actually happen is what I've constantly said would happen with Larry:

Ja switches onto him and blows right by him. Over and over. Eventually JJJ might drag him out to the 3 point line and he'll get beat on the back door pass.

[hardenASG13]

LMAO, nobody is going to argue and debate someone who thinks that humans have evolved physically in the last 40 years, especially when it has been proven that testosterone and growth hormones produced by the body have declined for generations.

As for today's defense, maybe you don't know this but there was no such thing as a flagrant foul when Bird played. Today's players not being able to touch Bird would have made life so easy he would have spent a year playing left handed because it was so easy for him.

Ummmm ok bro.


That addressed none of what I said but thanks for the useless rambling about fouls and evolution. I never made any of those points.

I'll make it very simple for you:

What does Larry avg today? Also what are his defensive numbers (DWS, DBPM).

He'd be hunted on defense over and over.

I don't understand why people think Bird would be bad defender today. He'd play strictly as a big and he was more mobile than a lot of centers or fours. I mean, Jokic has been good defender this season and he plays defense the way Bird did back then, except that Larry had much higher motor and less physical limitations.

I don’t understand why he’s considered an all-time great shooter either….because he won the three point competition? He shot 37% from 3 on two attempts per game, and 51% on twos in 17 attempts per game. That’s good, I guess, but not spectacular. Before anyone argues that he would’ve been a better 3 point shooter if he played in this era bc he would’ve practiced them, my counter would be do you really think Larry bird didn’t practice his shooting?

One of the best players of his generation,no question. Also no question that he is not the GOAT.

[Slim Charless]

Ummmm ok bro.


That addressed none of what I said but thanks for the useless rambling about fouls and evolution. I never made any of those points.

I'll make it very simple for you:

What does Larry avg today? Also what are his defensive numbers (DWS, DBPM).

He'd be hunted on defense over and over.

I don't understand why people think Bird would be bad defender today. He'd play strictly as a big and he was more mobile than a lot of centers or fours. I mean, Jokic has been good defender this season and he plays defense the way Bird did back then, except that Larry had much higher motor and less physical limitations.

I don’t understand why he’s considered an all-time great shooter either….because he won the three point competition? He shot 37% from 3 on two attempts per game, and 51% on twos in 17 attempts per game. That’s good, I guess, but not spectacular. Before anyone argues that he would’ve been a better 3 point shooter if he played in this era bc he would’ve practiced them, my counter would be do you really think Larry bird didn’t practice his shooting?

One of the best players of his generation,no question. Also no question that he is not the GOAT.

It makes no sense. Truly don't understand where this is all coming from. It's universal that Mike is GOAT....all other cases being made are dumb.

[therealbig3]

Not at all. At his absolute best, could he have an argument as having the highest peak ever? Not really imo. Jordan and LeBron both peaked higher, pretty clearly imo. I guess you could argue him against anyone else after that, purely based on peak (which wasn’t that long of a window either).

But then you see how terrible his longevity actually is once you account for his injuries, compared to other legends…I think you can make a more reasonable case for him being outside of the top 10 than having him as the GOAT.

[therealbig3]

I don't understand why people think Bird would be bad defender today. He'd play strictly as a big and he was more mobile than a lot of centers or fours. I mean, Jokic has been good defender this season and he plays defense the way Bird did back then, except that Larry had much higher motor and less physical limitations.

I don’t understand why he’s considered an all-time great shooter either….because he won the three point competition? He shot 37% from 3 on two attempts per game, and 51% on twos in 17 attempts per game. That’s good, I guess, but not spectacular. Before anyone argues that he would’ve been a better 3 point shooter if he played in this era bc he would’ve practiced them, my counter would be do you really think Larry bird didn’t practice his shooting?

One of the best players of his generation,no question. Also no question that he is not the GOAT.

It makes no sense. Truly don't understand where this is all coming from. It's universal that Mike is GOAT....all other cases being made are dumb.

Nah, LeBron is the GOAT imo.