2021-2022 Regular Season Game 60: Atlanta Hawks (27-30) at Orlando Magic (13-46) - 2/16/22 - 7pm ET

[DiplomaticMagic]

I couldnt even make it to halftime of this game.

If Fultz isnt back next game, we riot.

[pepe1991]

It's not going to work. They can't be on the court together unless one of them becomes at least an average 3pt shooter. Depending on where we land in the lotto, we may be drafting Fultz or Suggs backcourt running mate anyway in Ivey.

Ivey stinking up the joint again tonight

I simply don't trust his shooting. He went from being awful shooter for 3, into elite one in matter of one year. It doesn't work like that.
In general last couple of college games there has been clear signs of cracks and stinkers from college prospects ( mostly Ivey & Jabari) where we can see their weaknesses being on full display.

Last couple of games he shoots 4-24 for 3. This is not coincidence.
He is hardly even average FT shooter.

We can't afford adding yet another mediocre / bad shooter from perimeter and just close both eyes and pretend that problem will somhow go away like we did with Payton- DIpo- Gordon as floor spacing was trash to the point where playing Jason Smith & Jodie Meeks sounded like solution.

[Rainwater]

I wasn't expecting a star but hoped for one. What I truly did not expect was a worse shooter than Fultz. That's been hard to take/watch. His dribble drive game is better than expected though (for me).

I agree I don't think anybody expected his shooting to be this bad but people were truly excited about this pick.

The shooting was always the question mark. His slash line at Gonzaga wasn't great and there wasn't any data going back before that. The rest of his game is obviously improving. If you can't see it, then I don't know what to tell you.

He hit 39% of his 2-point field goals before the new year. He has hit 49% of his 2-point field goals since the new year, which is a respectable mark for a guard. He had an AST/TO ratio of 1.12 before the new year. He has an AST/TO ratio of 1.86 since the start of the new year. These are massive improvements.

For anyone expecting a finished product right out of the gates, shame on you.

Trust me, I agree. Tell that to those who thought otherwise.

[pepe1991]

We just came off a stretch where people thought we were winning too many games for the tank. It's just the ebbs and flows of a season.

Bingo.

This is a team designed to be bad right now and they had a bad night.

Let's say 23-24 is the year the Magic expect to be competitive, how many of the 11 guys who played tonight will be in the rotation? It's only 2-4 guys maximum.

I get it. Tanking is frustrating. Losing is frustrating. But people get hung up on things like "this team is so far away!" like this exact group of 10 guys are the exact 10 guys this team is going to have to win with down the road and that's just not the case.

The team is gonna look wildly different in two years.

2 years from now:
Okeke is in his 4th year, so he stays
Cole is in his 4th year, so he stays
Suggs is in his 3rd year, so he stays
Franz is in his 3rd year so he stays
Hampton is in his 4th year, if it's picked up, so he stays
Wendell's exstension starts next year , just in his second year of contract, so without some trades he stays

If they resign Bamba, he is there as well.
I didn't even count Fultz & Isaac, who both have contracts that keeps them in Orlando for those two years.


Soo... yea, without huge trades, there won't be "2-4 guys from now" more like 4-6 guys and that's half of active roster. Ofc some of them might get traded, might get cut ( Hampton...) or will leave ( Bamba , fingers crossed ). But given most of those guys are on rookie scale deals that just started, or exstensions that just started, or are yet to start, i don't see scenario where Magic change 7 active rotation players in 2 years.

[drsd]

What a lack of heart. Orlando is clearly not trying to win games. Complete lack of defensive energy.

[drsd]

Positivity stat of the game:

Orlando continues with red-hot FT shooting (92.3% in this game).

[jezzerinho]

It's not going to work. They can't be on the court together unless one of them becomes at least an average 3pt shooter. Depending on where we land in the lotto, we may be drafting Fultz or Suggs backcourt running mate anyway in Ivey.

Ivey stinking up the joint again tonight

I simply don't trust his shooting. He went from being awful shooter for 3, into elite one in matter of one year. It doesn't work like that.
In general last couple of college games there has been clear signs of cracks and stinkers from college prospects ( mostly Ivey & Jabari) where we can see their weaknesses being on full display.

Last couple of games he shoots 4-24 for 3. This is not coincidence.
He is hardly even average FT shooter.

We can't afford adding yet another mediocre / bad shooter from perimeter and just close both eyes and pretend that problem will somhow go away like we did with Payton- DIpo- Gordon as floor spacing was trash to the point where playing Jason Smith & Jodie Meeks sounded like solution.

I knew this was coming for Ivey. It'll be even uglier in the NBA where all the height will further interfere with his low release.

Buyer beware. There's undeniable talent, but let someone with more cushion for underperformance take the risk.

[LDNMagic90]

I just about made it to half time before going to sleep for work. So I think in terms of effort we have clearly gone into 'holiday mode' as I like to call it, we have just stunk up the place generally in the last few games. Clearly this break is needed for the players and especially coach it seems like everyone is burning out which is understandable with a young team. Teams have obviously done their scouting on us and have adjusted and we have no answer/no will to answer for it.

I get we are tanking so losses are more important than wins, but it's very hard for a young team to learn when they are down 15+ points in our recent games. We just need to play with more effort/have a better offensive scheme, I said previously that Mosley essentially has a free hit of a season this year. What I was hoping for though is that we experiment a bit more especially with our offense, we are still doing a lot of dribble handoffs.

This off-season I'd hope we add some more pieces that make sense for us, I'm still not totally sold on who to draft yet my opinion is always changing on that. Free agency, I just want to get some proper shooting on this team and a decent center if we don't draft one of the bigs.

[jezzerinho]

Glad i only watched highlights.

On top of Orlando's very mundane effort, Atlanta is just a super boring tem to watch. They just jack up threes and do little else. There's not a ton of basketball craft in it....

[89Magicfan]

Wonder if Suggs’s injury is lingering?

Still...Not worried.

[tiderulz]

It's not going to work. They can't be on the court together unless one of them becomes at least an average 3pt shooter. Depending on where we land in the lotto, we may be drafting Fultz or Suggs backcourt running mate anyway in Ivey.

Ivey stinking up the joint again tonight

I simply don't trust his shooting. He went from being awful shooter for 3, into elite one in matter of one year. It doesn't work like that.
In general last couple of college games there has been clear signs of cracks and stinkers from college prospects ( mostly Ivey & Jabari) where we can see their weaknesses being on full display.

Last couple of games he shoots 4-24 for 3. This is not coincidence.
He is hardly even average FT shooter.

We can't afford adding yet another mediocre / bad shooter from perimeter and just close both eyes and pretend that problem will somhow go away like we did with Payton- DIpo- Gordon as floor spacing was trash to the point where playing Jason Smith & Jodie Meeks sounded like solution.

I'm not saying Ivey doesnt have warts. But going from Freshman year to Sophomore year, yes, it can work like that. Coaches can find a hitch in your shot, they way you place your feet, the way you jump, etc.

[tiderulz]

Ivey stinking up the joint again tonight

I simply don't trust his shooting. He went from being awful shooter for 3, into elite one in matter of one year. It doesn't work like that.
In general last couple of college games there has been clear signs of cracks and stinkers from college prospects ( mostly Ivey & Jabari) where we can see their weaknesses being on full display.

Last couple of games he shoots 4-24 for 3. This is not coincidence.
He is hardly even average FT shooter.

We can't afford adding yet another mediocre / bad shooter from perimeter and just close both eyes and pretend that problem will somhow go away like we did with Payton- DIpo- Gordon as floor spacing was trash to the point where playing Jason Smith & Jodie Meeks sounded like solution.

I knew this was coming for Ivey. It'll be even uglier in the NBA where all the height will further interfere with his low release.

Buyer beware. There's undeniable talent, but let someone with more cushion for underperformance take the risk.

there are no perfect prospects. each of the top players has some risk

[MartinsIzAfraud]

We just came off a stretch where people thought we were winning too many games for the tank. It's just the ebbs and flows of a season.

Bingo.

This is a team designed to be bad right now and they had a bad night.

Let's say 23-24 is the year the Magic expect to be competitive, how many of the 11 guys who played tonight will be in the rotation? It's only 2-4 guys maximum.

I get it. Tanking is frustrating. Losing is frustrating. But people get hung up on things like "this team is so far away!" like this exact group of 10 guys are the exact 10 guys this team is going to have to win with down the road and that's just not the case.

The team is gonna look wildly different in two years.

Better get to spending that FA money this summer to grab other helpful pieces or that 23-24 season turns into 24-25 REAL QUICK.

[Ducklett]

The morning show on FS1 had a blooper of Franz sliding away on a Trae crossover and I dropped my mug of milk when they called us the "sneaky good" Magic.

[Knightro]

2 years from now:
Okeke is in his 4th year, so he stays
Cole is in his 4th year, so he stays
Suggs is in his 3rd year, so he stays
Franz is in his 3rd year so he stays
Hampton is in his 4th year, if it's picked up, so he stays
Wendell's exstension starts next year , just in his second year of contract, so without some trades he stays

If they resign Bamba, he is there as well.
I didn't even count Fultz & Isaac, who both have contracts that keeps them in Orlando for those two years.


Soo... yea, without huge trades, there won't be "2-4 guys from now" more like 4-6 guys and that's half of active roster. Ofc some of them might get traded, might get cut ( Hampton...) or will leave ( Bamba , fingers crossed ). But given most of those guys are on rookie scale deals that just started, or exstensions that just started, or are yet to start, i don't see scenario where Magic change 7 active rotation players in 2 years.

Right off the bat - Fultz, Isaac and Hampton didn't play last night. My exact quote from last night was "how many of the 11 guys who played tonight will be in the rotation in two years?" and I think it's absolutely fair to suggest the answer is no more than 4.

The roster is at 16 right now. The Magic have 14 guys on guaranteed contracts and a pair of two-way players currently.

Only 2 of those players have a guaranteed contract for 23-24 right now, Isaac and Carter. Even if every single player they have who is currently on a rookie deal gets every single one of their options picked up, that only increases the total number of players under contract to 7 for 23-24.

That means there's 10 spots - 8 guaranteed contracts and 2 two-way contracts - up for grabs to be changed over the next two years.

We know the Magic are going to be making a high lotto pick in 2022, so that's 1 spot.

We know the Magic have two first round picks in 2023, so that's most likely 2 more spots.

Are you suggesting that the Magic, who are going to have upwards of $30M in cap space this year and upwards of $50M in cap space the following summer, aren't going to bring in at least 3 or 4 new players with that money either via FA signings or trades? And assuming they do leverage their cap flexibility to bring in new guys, we don't expect those guys to play? They're gonna have to spend that money on something and I certainly don't believe it will be for lucrative long-term extensions for Harris and Bamba.

Guys like Anthony and Hampton and even Okeke could be on the roster two years from now because they'll all still be relatively cheap, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be in the rotation either.

I expect the Magic to be very aggressive with their cap space to add rotation caliber players when the time is right. I'm thinking next year's trade deadline and summer.

[pepe1991]

2 years from now:
Okeke is in his 4th year, so he stays
Cole is in his 4th year, so he stays
Suggs is in his 3rd year, so he stays
Franz is in his 3rd year so he stays
Hampton is in his 4th year, if it's picked up, so he stays
Wendell's exstension starts next year , just in his second year of contract, so without some trades he stays

If they resign Bamba, he is there as well.
I didn't even count Fultz & Isaac, who both have contracts that keeps them in Orlando for those two years.


Soo... yea, without huge trades, there won't be "2-4 guys from now" more like 4-6 guys and that's half of active roster. Ofc some of them might get traded, might get cut ( Hampton...) or will leave ( Bamba , fingers crossed ). But given most of those guys are on rookie scale deals that just started, or exstensions that just started, or are yet to start, i don't see scenario where Magic change 7 active rotation players in 2 years.

Right off the bat - Fultz, Isaac and Hampton didn't play last night. My exact quote from last night was "how many of the 11 guys who played tonight will be in the rotation in two years?" and I think it's absolutely fair to suggest the answer is no more than 4.

The roster is at 16 right now. The Magic have 14 guys on guaranteed contracts and a pair of two-way players currently.

Only 2 of those players have a guaranteed contract for 23-24 right now, Isaac and Carter. Even if every single player they have who is currently on a rookie deal gets every single one of their options picked up, that only increases the total number of players under contract to 7 for 23-24.

That means there's 10 spots - 8 guaranteed contracts and 2 two-way contracts - up for grabs to be changed over the next two years.

We know the Magic are going to be making a high lotto pick in 2022, so that's 1 spot.

We know the Magic have two first round picks in 2023, so that's most likely 2 more spots.

Are you suggesting that the Magic, who are going to have upwards of $30M in cap space this year and upwards of $50M in cap space the following summer, aren't going to bring in at least 3 or 4 new players with that money either via FA signings or trades? And assuming they do leverage their cap flexibility to bring in new guys, we don't expect those guys to play? They're gonna have to spend that money on something and I certainly don't believe it will be for lucrative long-term extensions for Harris and Bamba.

Guys like Anthony and Hampton and even Okeke could be on the roster two years from now because they'll all still be relatively cheap, but that doesn't necessarily mean they're gonna be in the rotation either.

I expect the Magic to be very aggressive with their cap space to add rotation caliber players when the time is right. I'm thinking next year's trade deadline and summer.

You carry 14-15 players, you can objectivlly only play 10 at apsolute best, in reality it's more like 9.

Yes, you have lot of cap space. However, since your whole roster is made out of rookie scale contracts, you also have to consider fact that atl least portion of them, who are good, will be exstended. Yes, you can exstend them by going over a cap, but also i don't see scenario where Magic land some FA and than go waaaaaaay overboard for fairly average team to pay massive luxury tax for (Atlanta Hawks current situation ).
Magic can get super agressive in free agency, that doesn't change fact there isn't anybody good to go at but 3 guys: Simons, Ayton and Bridges. From gates, Simons plays same position as your 5th overall pick, your just exstended PG Fultz & your top 15 pick Cole.
Bridges plays same position as Isaac& Wendell /Bamba and Okeke and Ayton in theory doesn't create much rotation issues, but also isn't really playable next to Wendell Carter nor Fultz & Suggs as it's just dead floor spacing.

And by the time salary cap expansion happends, everybody else, including big market teams will have free cap.

Are you suggesting that the Magic, who are going to have upwards of $30M in cap space this year and upwards of $50M in cap space the following summer, aren't going to bring in at least 3 or 4 new players with that money either via FA signings or trades?

Last time Magic had cap space they couldn't schedule meeting with Lamarcus Aldrige, Paul Millsap made fool of them by leveradging them for bigger money and their FA splash were Biyombo and one year of Jeff Green, who could not give a flying f*** about playing. Same Jeff Green who 5 years later still plays better than he did for us.
What changed? Front office? Hammond biggest FA in his career is Greg Monroe. Weltman's is , funny enough, also Biyombo. He just didn't pay high praice for him, rather signed him on one year $5,7M and didn't resign him after ( because, well, Henny was at his home with bag of money ).
Magic will still need to do overpay for average player in order to get him. That's just reality. Especially knowing team is in play for worst record in nba. spoiler alert, if you are good player, you don't want to go on small market, worthless team if it's not Jeremy Grant - Detroit situation. ( 3 years, $60M that Nuggets didn't feel like matching)

[Knightro]

You carry 14-15 players, you can objectivlly only play 10 at apsolute best, in reality it's more like 9.

Yes, you have lot of cap space. However, since your whole roster is made out of rookie scale contracts, you also have to consider fact that atl least portion of them, who are good, will be exstended. Yes, you can exstend them by going over a cap, but also i don't see scenario where Magic land some FA and than go waaaaaaay overboard for fairly average team to pay massive luxury tax for (Atlanta Hawks current situation ).
Magic can get super agressive in free agency, that doesn't change fact there isn't anybody good to go at but 3 guys: Simons, Ayton and Bridges. From gates, Simons plays same position as your 5th overall pick, your just exstended PG Fultz & your top 15 pick Cole.
Bridges plays same position as Isaac& Wendell /Bamba and Okeke and Ayton in theory doesn't create much rotation issues, but also isn't really playable next to Wendell Carter nor Fultz & Suggs as it's just dead floor spacing.

And by the time salary cap expansion happends, everybody else, including big market teams will have free cap.

Are you suggesting that the Magic, who are going to have upwards of $30M in cap space this year and upwards of $50M in cap space the following summer, aren't going to bring in at least 3 or 4 new players with that money either via FA signings or trades?

Last time Magic had cap space they couldnt' schedule meeting with Lamarcus Aldrige, Paul Millsap made fool of them by leveradging them for bigger money and their FA splash were Biyombo and one year of Jeff Green, who could not give a flying f*** about playing. Same Jeff Green who 5 years later still plays better than he did for us.
What changed? Front office? Hammond biggest FA in his career is Greg Monroe. Weltman's is , funny enough, also Biyombo. He just didn't pay high praice for him, rather signed him on one year $5,7M and didn't resign him after ( because, well, Henny was at his home with bag of money ).
Magic will still need to do overpay for average player in order to get him. That's just reality. Especially knowing team is in play for worst record in nba. spoiler alert, if you are good player, you don't want to go on small market, worthless team.

But you're arguing a totally different thing.

Essentially what you're saying is "the Magic won't be able to add anyone good with their money because they stink!" - which is fine and may be completely true, but that is a totally different argument than what I'm making.

Whether they can get great players or not, the Magic are going to spend that money either this offseason or next offseason and it's kind of silly to think it won't be on multiple new players who will be expected to play.

Even in the summer of 2016 which ended up being a complete bust long-term, the Magic added Biyombo, Green and Augustin and also traded for Ibaka and all four of those guys went straight into the rotation immediately.

[pepe1991]

You carry 14-15 players, you can objectivlly only play 10 at apsolute best, in reality it's more like 9.

Yes, you have lot of cap space. However, since your whole roster is made out of rookie scale contracts, you also have to consider fact that atl least portion of them, who are good, will be exstended. Yes, you can exstend them by going over a cap, but also i don't see scenario where Magic land some FA and than go waaaaaaay overboard for fairly average team to pay massive luxury tax for (Atlanta Hawks current situation ).
Magic can get super agressive in free agency, that doesn't change fact there isn't anybody good to go at but 3 guys: Simons, Ayton and Bridges. From gates, Simons plays same position as your 5th overall pick, your just exstended PG Fultz & your top 15 pick Cole.
Bridges plays same position as Isaac& Wendell /Bamba and Okeke and Ayton in theory doesn't create much rotation issues, but also isn't really playable next to Wendell Carter nor Fultz & Suggs as it's just dead floor spacing.

And by the time salary cap expansion happends, everybody else, including big market teams will have free cap.

Are you suggesting that the Magic, who are going to have upwards of $30M in cap space this year and upwards of $50M in cap space the following summer, aren't going to bring in at least 3 or 4 new players with that money either via FA signings or trades?

Last time Magic had cap space they couldnt' schedule meeting with Lamarcus Aldrige, Paul Millsap made fool of them by leveradging them for bigger money and their FA splash were Biyombo and one year of Jeff Green, who could not give a flying f*** about playing. Same Jeff Green who 5 years later still plays better than he did for us.
What changed? Front office? Hammond biggest FA in his career is Greg Monroe. Weltman's is , funny enough, also Biyombo. He just didn't pay high praice for him, rather signed him on one year $5,7M and didn't resign him after ( because, well, Henny was at his home with bag of money ).
Magic will still need to do overpay for average player in order to get him. That's just reality. Especially knowing team is in play for worst record in nba. spoiler alert, if you are good player, you don't want to go on small market, worthless team.

But you're arguing a totally different thing.

Essentially what you're saying is "the Magic won't be able to add anyone good with their money because they stink!" - which is fine and may be completely true, but that is a totally different argument than what I'm making.

Whether they can get great players or not, the Magic are going to spend that money either this offseason or next offseason and it's kind of silly to think it won't be on multiple new players who will be expected to play.

Even in the summer of 2016, the Magic added Biyombo, Green and Augustin and also traded for Ibaka and all four of those guys went straight into the rotation.

I still don't think current roster and roster 2 years from now will have 2-3 current players on, more like 5-6 .

Orlando Magic 2014-15 roster had Vuc, Oladipo, Evan, Harris, Gordon & Elf in it's core, 2016-17 roster ( 2 years later) still had Vuc, Evan, Gordon & Payton.

This is very common thing. 2018-19 Atlanta had Trae, Collins, Prince, Huerter. 2019-20 Hawks retained all of them and added Hunter and Reddish. Fast forward 2 years later, It's largley same group of guys, Reddish just quit on them, and they added experienced vets. However, they retained 5 players.

I'm not arguing Magic will change things and bodies, i'm arguing that roster changes won't be as dramatic as you suggested ( 10 different players in next 2 years sounds like changing whole team).
Maybe if we change front office ...